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[1561] Little girl stuff

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Zandra
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by Zandra » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:03 pm

I have a theory on how moeko could live outside her fantasy. Pings body. a transfer of her entire personality into ping.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:22 pm

piro wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:46 pm
Oh, and there have been a number of times when i had come in here to clarify something (because people seemed to be going WAY off base on it) and i was told bluntly that i was wrong. Which was amusing. :)
Fred
Never let people saying you are wrong stop you! Unless... they are like, telling you it is wrong to jump out of a plane without a parachute... then maybe listen to them, and get a parachute before you jump. Ummmm... RAMBLE ON... SING MY SONG... FIND A WAY
(Drops a ninja smoke bomb.)

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by SpaceCobraJoe » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:59 am

I notice in the last panel that the star at the tip of her magical wand is half its normal size.

Moeko thinking about what she could have been makes me scared.

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by Roamer » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:21 am
Moeko clearly has fangs... in every shot. Clearly having a nervous breakdown, also. Has it been a slow rolling nervous breakdown for years? A decade or more? Some things you cannot fix. Some things you cannot replace. Some things you cannot throw out. Some things you cannot escape.
Congrats, Teddy, that was simultaneously quite profound and depressing as hell.
darrin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:45 am
paarfi wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:08 pm
I have always greatly admired CS Lewis's defense of fairy tales and children's literature.
Or in defense of literature that others considered "children's" that arguably wasn't; go back a few hundred years and "fairy tales" were a (non-child-specific) genre, as legitimate then as say detective or romance genres in modern times. He (and his friend Tolkien) put a lot of effort into trying to make ("modern") people aware of this.
But they sound like children's tales because they were primarily intended as children's cautionary tales. The core message of Hansel and Gretel makes perfect sense: Don't wander off in the forest or you'll get eaten. Once they were changed to soften the core message - a lot of Grimm's tales are pretty bleak - children's stories are all they are.
darrin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:43 pm
paarfi wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:33 pm
When her mother played GirlPhase on the TV in the hospital room, it let her see that might-have-been. It let her live her life, even if vicariously through a TV character, in a way that she'd never be able to do for real.
Which makes me wonder, did Moeko manifest herself to her mother the way she is doing so to Erika right now? "Don't worry mom, I'm actually ok, and the videos are helping, keep 'em coming"?

Or were they able to communicate during any non-comatose moments (if there were any)?

Or was mom just playing the videos out of hope? (Along the lines of it being recommended to keep talking to a comatose patient even if you don't see any signs they hear you) (Maybe Moeko can only manifest herself to fellow MGs, plus closely associated individuals like idols... or maybe it was too emotionally painful to talk directly to her mother...)

The questions of who knew what and when have been multiplying more and more rapidly as time goes on...
Given how starved for attention she seems to be, I believe it's something she can only do with those she's linked to in Paarfi's chain: her Analogue and her Character. Pretty sure if Ririka could talk to Moeko she would have at least mentioned the possibility to Erika.
piro wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:46 pm

Oh, and there have been a number of times when i had come in here to clarify something (because people seemed to be going WAY off base on it) and i was told bluntly that i was wrong. Which was amusing. :)

Fred
Truly, the mind doth boggle at that. Did they not recognize you? Or were they claiming they were channeling the spirit of the character in question?

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by darrin » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:36 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:22 pm
Never let people saying you are wrong stop you! Unless... they are like, telling you it is wrong to jump out of a plane without a parachute...
Zapp: Kiff, did you pack your parachute?
Kiff: <nods, his expression suddenly becoming suspicious>
Zapp: Good, because I forgot mine. <grabs 'chute>
SpaceCobraJoe wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:59 am
Moeko thinking about what she could have been makes me scared.
Yeah, the more I look at the last panel the more it looks like a vast and critical divergence point in the plot.
Is she suddenly gripped with sadness, and about to drop the wand?
Or is everything that's been done to her (by Stability or life itself) about to finally have her lose what remains of her shit, and the twiddly deal she is doing with her ring finger is her twirling the wand Voldemort-style, about to make things very unpleasant for a very large number of people? :o
Roamer wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 am
But they sound like children's tales because they were primarily intended as children's cautionary tales. The core message of Hansel and Gretel makes perfect sense: Don't wander off in the forest or you'll get eaten. Once they were changed to soften the core message - a lot of Grimm's tales are pretty bleak - children's stories are all they are.
A subset of them were children's stories, just like a subset of all literature is children's literature. Grimm focused on those because they considered themselves to be making a contribution to children's literature specifically; Lewis and Tolkien by contrast were dismayed by the fact that by their time, this contribution was considered the only form of the genre, so that "adult fairy stories" had become not just an oxymoron but a long-forgotten blind spot. In the twitch channel last night while discussing paarfi's point I said that it was as if a hundred years from now people lumped Agatha Christie, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and Encyclopedia Brown all in the same bucket, and dismissed them all as "just for children". ("The core message of A Study in Scarlet makes perfect sense: physical law proceeds from cause to effect, and given close observation of known consequences, one can apply logic to deduce the most likely ultimate causes of those consequences. Once they were changed to soften the amount of deductive reasoning involved -- a lot of Christie's stories rely on rather excessive leaps of logic -- children's stories are all they are.")

It's a very safe bet that after telling the kids their cautionary tales, and then sending them off to bed, the adults would remain sitting around the campfire telling the other stories that the children would get to hear when they were old enough. Beowulf wasn't intended as a children's story. Gilgamesh wasn't intended as a children's story.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by ElvinaParsnip » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:38 pm

Roamer wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 am
piro wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:46 pm

Oh, and there have been a number of times when i had come in here to clarify something (because people seemed to be going WAY off base on it) and i was told bluntly that i was wrong. Which was amusing. :)

Fred
Truly, the mind doth boggle at that. Did they not recognize you? Or were they claiming they were channeling the spirit of the character in question?
Kinda sounds like Fred's got a Horde problem of his own... :D

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by Rapierman » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:42 pm

So, in a way, it's not just because of Miho's way-back past, but also because of Moeko's situation, that causes Miho to faint and go into a momentary coma before she revives.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:42 pm

Roamer wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 am
Congrats, Teddy, that was simultaneously quite profound and depressing as hell.
I will not lie. That comment made me cackle like Mark Hamill's Joker, and then I felt bad about reacting that way.

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by Voyager » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:27 am

jkhartl wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:29 am
cidjen wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:59 am
Wooow.
OT & FTR, which book is this from ? Silmarilion?
This is from the appendices to The Lord of the Ring: The Return of the King. Aragon, the last of the Númenoreans has decided he has lived long enough. This left Arwen in a lurch, now that she is mortal, died soon afterward.
This is a touch off the main thread, but the impression I got was that she wandered off into the remains of Rivendell and just shut down. Which always struck me as a bit off, because their son was still alive, so why didn't he check on his mother to make sure we wasn't wasting away, when it hit me, he probably did, at least until he died, and one or more of her grand kids took over making sure grandmother was staying connected to life, then one of the great grandchildren, then the great-great-grandchildren, then the third great grandchildren, fourth, fifth, and so on and so forth until either the generations ran out or no-one remembered to keep tabs on her.

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by cidjen » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:30 am

Voyager wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:27 am
jkhartl wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:29 am
cidjen wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:59 am
Wooow.
OT & FTR, which book is this from ? Silmarilion?
This is from the appendices to The Lord of the Ring: The Return of the King. Aragon, the last of the Númenoreans has decided he has lived long enough. This left Arwen in a lurch, now that she is mortal, died soon afterward.
This is a touch off the main thread, but the impression I got was that she wandered off into the remains of Rivendell and just shut down. Which always struck me as a bit off, because their son was still alive, so why didn't he check on his mother to make sure we wasn't wasting away, when it hit me, he probably did, at least until he died, and one or more of her grand kids took over making sure grandmother was staying connected to life, then one of the great grandchildren, then the great-great-grandchildren, then the third great grandchildren, fourth, fifth, and so on and so forth until either the generations ran out or no-one remembered to keep tabs on her.
Hmm it was long since I read LOTR (and I had a copy from a library too) but wikipedia disagrees

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by Orriens » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:47 am

paarfi wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:29 pm
[...]
This forum is really for fans to talk to fans, and he seems to like it that way. I start these threads (or occasionally someone else does) because Fred has so much on his plate that he can't do already, [...]
This answers my question.

I just asked it because in the old forums, fred himself used to start these threads.
piro wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:46 pm
i do read the forums, often actually.
[...]
also, figuring things out is part of the fun of any story, IMHO and there have been a lot of interesting discussions over the years.
[...]
I do still clearly remember that from the old forums.
And figuring out is indeed a fun activity with the help of others in these threads.

Orriens.
(Thanks for the personal answer.)

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by darrin » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:45 am

Voyager wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:27 am
jkhartl wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:29 am
This left Arwen in a lurch, now that she is mortal, died soon afterward.
[...]the impression I got was that she wandered off into the remains of Rivendell and just shut down.
I'm not 100% sure I understand what you mean by "just shut down" here, but if it means anything other than death, I believe the text disagrees.
(From Appendix A, shortly after the bits I stole for that rescript; Aragorn is the first speaker, followed by Arwen. The whole passage is in single quotes in the original, which I have omitted, since it is intended as a quote from "a part of the tale of Aragorn and Arwen".)
"[...] The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens [...]; or else to abide by the Doom of Men."

"Nay, dear Lord," she said, "that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence. [...]"

[...] and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. [...] There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed [...]
The "Doom of Men" is how the Elves in the Silmarillion refer to death, i.e. the mortality of humans as opposed to their own elvish immortality. Note that they also refer to it as the Gift of Men (in contrast with the "world-weariness" the Elves face after being bound "too long" to the "circles of the world". Which, to at least attempt to bring this back to slightly less ridiculously off-topic, could serve to explain at least a little of Miho's occasional moodiness, if she's dealing with anything remotely similar.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by Mamma Peach » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:27 pm

There is not only the connection of the "dying girl" story between Miho and Moeko. There is also the fact that Miho tried to take Erica's fans when she quit (bringing on disaster). Miho channeled Moeko, gave her life, but if Moeko was also channeling Miho's story (in a way) then there would logically be a huge feedback, and disaster.
What Moeko is more concerned about though is her inability to live life. For that reason she is angry at Miho for almost giving up what life she had, and wishes that Erica would carry on her story so that she could at least live vicariously through that story. She is in a very sad place in life... being just awake enough to know what she's missing, but not enough to actually live. (And no, overwriting Ping's personality to put Moeko in her body is NOT a solution.)

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by piro » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:41 pm

Orriens wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:47 am
(Thanks for the personal answer.)
Oh, and the reason i used to start the threads on the forums is it used to be this huge free for all with lots of people trying to be the first one to start the discussion thread, so i started doing the discussion thread to keep the chaos down. things are calmer these days, and Paarfi usualy takes care of it :)

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by Roamer » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:37 am

Fred - I forgot to mention this before but your art continues to grow and change and mature. That last panel is one of the most expressive, heart wrenching, and depressing (in a good way) things I think you've ever done. Bravo.

(Prior winner in the depressing-in-a-good-way award is the one print we have with Megumi, where she's been stood up at the bar. Any chance we can get something more upbeat?)
darrin wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:36 am
Roamer wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 am
But they sound like children's tales because they were primarily intended as children's cautionary tales. The core message of Hansel and Gretel makes perfect sense: Don't wander off in the forest or you'll get eaten. Once they were changed to soften the core message - a lot of Grimm's tales are pretty bleak - children's stories are all they are.
A subset of them were children's stories, just like a subset of all literature is children's literature. Grimm focused on those because they considered themselves to be making a contribution to children's literature specifically; Lewis and Tolkien by contrast were dismayed by the fact that by their time, this contribution was considered the only form of the genre, so that "adult fairy stories" had become not just an oxymoron but a long-forgotten blind spot. In the twitch channel last night while discussing paarfi's point I said that it was as if a hundred years from now people lumped Agatha Christie, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and Encyclopedia Brown all in the same bucket, and dismissed them all as "just for children". ("The core message of A Study in Scarlet makes perfect sense: physical law proceeds from cause to effect, and given close observation of known consequences, one can apply logic to deduce the most likely ultimate causes of those consequences. Once they were changed to soften the amount of deductive reasoning involved -- a lot of Christie's stories rely on rather excessive leaps of logic -- children's stories are all they are.")

It's a very safe bet that after telling the kids their cautionary tales, and then sending them off to bed, the adults would remain sitting around the campfire telling the other stories that the children would get to hear when they were old enough. Beowulf wasn't intended as a children's story. Gilgamesh wasn't intended as a children's story.
I rather like that thought about compressing a type of stories together like that. Amusing (and mildly appalling, which is of course your point.) But I don't think it's really accurate to try and pigeonhole most stories from the era of oral history, simply because a storyteller could and probably did alter the story to fit his audience. The Roman pantheon is just the Greek gods with a quickie repainting. A bard telling the tales of the Greek gods to an audience could spice things up for a mature audience or focus just on the action for the kids. There's no reason why they couldn't do the same for most stories, although there are exceptions - The Epic of Gilgamesh, as you pointed out, or Xenophon's Anabasis. Writing stories down had much to do with creating permanent categories for them to fall into.
Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:42 pm
Roamer wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 am
Congrats, Teddy, that was simultaneously quite profound and depressing as hell.
I will not lie. That comment made me cackle like Mark Hamill's Joker, and then I felt bad about reacting that way.
Nonsense. Depression as an emotion felt by the reader isn't something for the writer to feel guilty about unless it was done deliberately AND it would be unusual for the reader to feel in that context. I don't think you qualify in this case.
And I expected the cackling. After all, it's what I do when I get a good rise out of the readers.
darrin wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:45 am

The "Doom of Men" is how the Elves in the Silmarillion refer to death, i.e. the mortality of humans as opposed to their own elvish immortality. Note that they also refer to it as the Gift of Men (in contrast with the "world-weariness" the Elves face after being bound "too long" to the "circles of the world". Which, to at least attempt to bring this back to slightly less ridiculously off-topic, could serve to explain at least a little of Miho's occasional moodiness, if she's dealing with anything remotely similar.
It might also help to explain her willingness to waltz onto a known killing field and get blown to bits by a dozen Killballs.
Last edited by Roamer on Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by cidjen » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:06 am

Roamer wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:37 am
It might also help to explain her willingness to waltz onto a known killing field and get blown to bits by a dozen Killballs.
That reminds me.

We know that she wasn't planning to be discovered by Yuki after that (and Yuki was looking for her why...?) hence she was very visibly surprised by that.

I just wonder what was she possibly planning instead of getting singled out of the ASF ? Could it have been related to what she was trying to do to Piro later (imply him as a creepy gaijin to lure her out of the country....?)

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by Roamer » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:29 am

cidjen wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:06 am
Roamer wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:37 am
It might also help to explain her willingness to waltz onto a known killing field and get blown to bits by a dozen Killballs.
That reminds me.

We know that she wasn't planning to be discovered by Yuki after that (and Yuki was looking for her why...?) hence she was very visibly surprised by that.

I just wonder what was she possibly planning instead of getting singled out of the ASF ? Could it have been related to what she was trying to do to Piro later (imply him as a creepy gaijin to lure her out of the country....?)
Yuki was convinced that it was Wuv Twue Wuv between Piro and Miho and decided to force the issue. Considering how oddly she behaves at a few points here I have to wonder if the MT metaplot was pushing her to force Miho into the open.

And Miho was in a very strange headspace. She had just shared her favorite story from Erika's show, one pretty revealing about some aspects of Miho's character. Opening up the way she did was...disorienting, really...to see. And she herself questioned it almost immediately, just before she walked onto that killing field. So it's pretty hard to say how much or how clearly she was thinking ahead.

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by cidjen » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:25 am

Roamer wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:29 am
Yuki was convinced that it was Wuv Twue Wuv between Piro and Miho
Haha right my question should have been marked rhetorical but nice one ;) thanks.
Roamer wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:29 am
She had just shared her favorite story from Erika's show, one pretty revealing about some aspects of Miho's character.
Somehow I am getting vibes that that passage (and the girl-rescued-by-pirates-who-then-died-after-they-were-killed story) is something we might get even more clues from...

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by darrin » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:38 am

Mamma Peach wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:27 pm
(And no, overwriting Ping's personality to put Moeko in her body is NOT a solution.)
THANK you. It never ceases to disturb me how many -- both in and out of comic -- consider Ping in some sense "disposable". :?
Roamer wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 am
I rather like that thought about compressing a type of stories together like that. Amusing (and mildly appalling, which is of course your point.) But I don't think it's really accurate to try and pigeonhole most stories from the era of oral history, simply because a storyteller could and probably did alter the story to fit his audience.
Well, I think a large part of what Lewis and Tolkien were trying to demonstrate was that the "pigeonholing" in this case -- "if a 'fairy' story (large emphasis on supernatural or fantastic elements) => therefore exclusively a children's story" -- was entirely a modern, and historically inaccurate, pigeonholing. There's a large gap after all between "editing" existing ("adult", or more broadly "human") stories to be more suitable for children, and having developed the idea that a particular genre is suitable only for children.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by Old_Gray_One » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:29 pm

I may be off base on this, but somehow in the last panel I see Moeko as having resolved her lingering regret. In the way that a ghost has to resolve it's lingering regret. It would not surprise me to see Moeko pass on in the next comic.

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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff

Post by mostlyharmless » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:31 am

paarfi wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:08 pm
I have always greatly admired CS Lewis's defense of fairy tales and children's literature. I think, had he lived long enough to know of them, he'd have felt the same about magical girls. You don't have to give up little girl stuff when you become a big girl, Moeko. Never stop dreaming.

My defence consists of three propositions.
1. I reply with a tu quoque. Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But the on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development: When I was ten I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

Link via BoingBoing
I ran across a clarification of "childlike" vs "childish" many moons ago I thought hit the mark. Found this on the 'net after a quick search:

Childish has negative connotations and is often used to refer to silly or immature behavior. childlike - having the good qualities, such as innocence, associated with a child. Childlike is closer to words like innocent, trusting, unfeigned, and pure, which are not negative.

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