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[1543] value

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Re: [1543] value

Post by paarfi » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:54 am

GouryG wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:52 am
"fully functional" human female but she had limiters built into her program to keep her activities PG rated. Now between Largo's hacking and the evolution of her programming these limiters may have been overridden or deleted and now she can do many things her programming would not let her do.
That's certainly possible. Something clearly went wacky with her programming this morning [1487] and that may be part of it as well.

But Ping has always had the ability to do sexual stuff, even though she's a non-H model: "that part belongs to me. It's not part of any game." [1175]. I think the fact that she's doing this for Junko makes it meet that criteria. Ping has always been self-sacrificing and willing to go way above-and-beyond for her friends.

So rather than (or maybe in addition to) software glitches and changes, I think the problem is that:
a) PIng is misunderstanding the situation
b) Ping doesn't realize that Junko would be horrified
c) Ping needs to value herself more
That last one is the biggie, I think.
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Re: [1543] value

Post by darrin » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:35 am

DrunkenSailor wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:27 pm
Ping's opinions need to be judged against the fact that what ever WE consider her to be, SHE considers herself to be an advanced machine for playing games that will be for sale. [...] Pings Dad is the SONY corporation. Judged as a machine prototype her view is pretty normal, for Ping high sales would be good.
Exactly. If Sony is the one cutting the checks, then the concept of pay to play is going to be baked into her reasoning system at a very low level, something "obvious" and beyond any questioning. She could no more engage in a line of thinking contrary to that than one of Asimov's robots could directly and intentionally kill a human. Megumi is going to have to find a "better" analogy to all of this... or else (if one is still, like me, holding out on that possibility) Ping is going to have to find out that she's mistaken about what was going on with Junko and the Old Man.

Hmm, in addition to all the things everyone's said so far that I also agree with... I am getting the distinct impression in panel 4 that Ping is really getting close to being sick and tired of people telling her what to do or what not to do. :lol: Which would be great in terms of paarfi's "#3: value herself more" above... except Megumi's kinda right, she's chosen a rather... unfortunate issue on which to begin that process. :shock:
BetaCygnus wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:00 am
Oh, by the way, I love the decorations on the chair Ping’s sitting in!
Ha, I am also loving the LEGO Movie "it may sound like a cat poster" cat poster in panel 2.
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Re: [1543] value

Post by darrin » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:25 pm

Sorry for the double post. Editability on my above one just went away and it took me a bit to pin down what was bugging me about the 8 or 9 tails thing.
paarfi wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:30 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:01 pm
paarfi wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:23 pm
She's got everybody fooled. She's been magically hiding that 9th tail so people like Ninjagram will underestimate her. She planted the story about her wanting Mugi's tail as added cover. :ninja:
It's more likely that REDACTED in MT than Grand-kitsune being a hidden 9 tail
See? She's good at this. :D
Yeah it's weird. In 1529 the ninja grandma calls her "eight tails", which doesn't rule out her "hiding" an actual ninth tail, but also doesn't rule out an ability to create an illusory ninth one. And in 1490 (the one maldrul mentioned above), Youko is apparently claiming that the ninth tail is "actually" fake, and that she is "actually" an eight-tail.

Which would make the common ground between the two versions that the ninth is fake... except, for my money, Youko's story sounds a lot more like something an older sibling/cousin would say to a younger one to tease them; and worse, it begs the question of why she would bother hiding her true tailed-ness from fellow kitsune, in particular her own family.

It seems obvious to me that the answer is quantum mechanical. Great-grandma kitsune is sqrt(1/3) eight-tailed + sqrt(2/3) nine-tailed. Which explains the legendary secretiveness of kitsune: if they're observed, they might end up in the state with the smaller number of tails...

(Okay, I don't know what the actual numbers are. Calculating Clebsch Gordan coefficients for angular momentum is pretty straightforward, but Sakurai is oddly silent on the subject of how to calculate them for foxtails.)
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Re: [1543] value

Post by BetaCygnus » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:27 pm

darrin wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:35 am
Ha, I am also loving the LEGO Movie "it may sound like a cat poster" cat poster in panel 2.
Hey, I missed that detail! Funny, thanks for pointing it out, Darrin! =)
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Re: [1543] value

Post by darrin » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:55 pm

BetaCygnus wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:27 pm
Hey, I missed that detail!
Well I'm kidding to some extent. Obviously that could be any cat poster. Whenever I see one now though all I can hear is Morgan Freeman delivering that line, so that's my head canon.

I would (now that I think of it) also accept the one of which Marge Simpson says "Hmm, determined or not, that cat must be long dead..." :(
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Re: [1543] value

Post by DrunkenSailor » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:45 pm

I didn't really look that closely at the posters lamps and couch. Stuff that will or has decorated the rooms I guess. I'm sure the fox girls have a great time decorating those. The big attention to detail fact I noticed there was the bottom cussion of the couch has a plain white covering. In a love hotel lots of naked butts on it, skid marks and bodily fluids.. ick. Putting a removable and washable slip cover on the furniture would be important. I wouldn't have thought about that. Fred put a lot of planning into this.

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Re: [1543] value

Post by maldrul » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:35 pm

Okay, this is what I have determined about Mugi's Obasama - In MT, Kitsune (foxgirls) are born with what ever number of tails they have, be it one or nine. Obasama kitsune was born with 8 tails, thus Obasama ninja calls her '8 tails'. But now she has 9 tails because 'that sort of thing' happened in the past. The contract on '8 tails' stems from the fact that Obasama kitsune *did* murder one of her own kind and STOLE her tail. Family of that kitsune are most likely the ones who put the contract on Obasama kitsune (Obasama ninja did say that it was an old contract).
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Re: [1543] value

Post by Invisigoth » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:37 pm

Nope, she is an 8 tail and she wasn't born with that many.

There's a very disturbing and rather gruesome backstory to how she came by the rest of the tails and were the one that doesn't match came from.

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Re: [1543] value

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:28 am

DrunkenSailor wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:45 pm
I didn't really look that closely at the posters lamps and couch. Stuff that will or has decorated the rooms I guess. I'm sure the fox girls have a great time decorating those. The big attention to detail fact I noticed there was the bottom cussion of the couch has a plain white covering. In a love hotel lots of naked butts on it, skid marks and bodily fluids.. ick. Putting a removable and washable slip cover on the furniture would be important. I wouldn't have thought about that. Fred put a lot of planning into this.
DS
If you are gonna have to use bleach by the gallon, white sheets make sense. Same reason hospitals do it, I imagine... different fluids, in some cases.

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Re: [1543] value

Post by cidjen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:01 am

DrunkenSailor wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:45 pm
I didn't really look that closely at the posters lamps and couch. Stuff that will or has decorated the rooms I guess. I'm sure the fox girls have a great time decorating those. The big attention to detail fact I noticed there was the bottom cussion of the couch has a plain white covering. In a love hotel lots of naked butts on it, skid marks and bodily fluids.. ick. Putting a removable and washable slip cover on the furniture would be important. I wouldn't have thought about that. Fred put a lot of planning into this.

DS
I do not think this is one of the guest rooms (the nice but fragile lamp, the couch, the boxes and shelves - the guest room would probably have minimum furniture i.e. bed OR couch) I think this is more of managers/storage/staff break room rather than guests room.

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Re: [1543] value

Post by paarfi » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:33 am

darrin wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:25 pm
Sorry for the double post. Editability on my above one just went away
Yeah, I asked DarkMorford to add a time limit for post editability, and he set it for 2hrs. There's a particular kind of comment spam where they'll post something that seems legit, then come back weeks/months later and edit that post to spam. We had a rash of that with Vietnamese comment spam here on the forum, which is why I asked DarkMorford to add that time limit. If y'all think 2hrs is too short, let me know and we can get it changed.
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Re: [1543] value

Post by darrin » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:00 am

paarfi wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:33 am
Yeah, I asked DarkMorford to add a time limit for post editability, and he set it for 2hrs.
I remember that (I was in that thread that turned out to have been started by a spammer). I was basically apologizing for being too dumb to think of my 2nd point before the limit, not complaining about the limit.

I would much rather occasionally be told "quit double posting ya numpty" (which I shouldn't be doing anyway) than have a spammer get away with their ass-hattery. :D

EDIT:
Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:37 pm
Nope, she is an 8 tail and she wasn't born with that many.
I get that that should be one of the preferred hypotheses, but I'm having trouble getting behind it 100%, because in 1490 Yakugashi quotes cousin Youko as calling great-grandma "really only an eight tail." The context makes it pretty clear that Yaku is taking for granted, and expects Mugi to take for granted, that great-grandma "presents" (in some sense) as more than eight tails. (Now that I think about it 9 certainly isn't stated explicitly anywhere, just something I guess I picked up from previous forum discussion; I guess for all I know she could "present" as having 10 or more.) Whether Youko meant "started with eight birth tails and stole the rest" or "has eight (birth+stolen) tails and the rest are illusory" I don't see a way to tell (Yaku doesn't go into detail about what Youko was saying, but uses it as a springboard to ask about the practice of tail-stealing...), at least from what's been revealed in-comic so far.
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Re: [1543] value

Post by Invisigoth » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:31 am

https://megatokyo.com/strip/1529 Ninja grandmother explicitly refers to her as "old eight-tail". This is because she is an eight tail and that particular number of tails has a bearing on events. Now there's a possibility that there's a "hidden nine-tail" just because that's the way Fred rolls but it's not the matriarch

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Re: [1543] value

Post by darrin » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:51 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:31 am
Ninja grandmother explicitly refers to her as "old eight-tail". This is because she is an eight tail [...]
If ggma was born with seven tails, and the "one of [her] tails is a different color" Yaku mentions in 1490 is an eighth "stolen" tail, so that she "is an eight tail" now... then Youko's statement that she's "really only an eight tail" makes no sense. "Only" implies that Youko expects Yaku to believe the number is greater than eight, and Yaku relaying this to Mugi without comment (on that part of the statement) implies Yaku expects Mugi to agree that the (presumably commonly believed, at least within the family) number is greater than eight.

"born with eight tails, but stole a ninth" explains both ninja gram's description (fellow old-timers still call her what they did when they were young) and Youko's comment.

EDIT:
(below)
Invisigoth wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:56 am
I believe it was either 4 or 5....it's a gruesome backstory.
As the number of birth tails? Sure, I would have no trouble believing that. (Presumably ninja gram would have known her from the time she had "gotten up to" eight. :shock:) Yaku seemed in 1490 to take it as significant that eight (again, I'm getting this from context based on the Youko quote) are the "same color" and the ninth (blah blah) is "different". But tails from family, especially close family, would be more likely to be similar or the same color. (Gruesome indeed! :shock: ;))

In case it wasn't clear I was not attempting to nitpick you on this or just be contrarian. Just sensing a lot of hidden complexity under the surface text (as standard with Fred :D) and genuinely trying to get a coherent picture out of it. 100% agreed with you about looking forward to more of the details coming into the comic at some point.
Last edited by darrin on Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [1543] value

Post by Invisigoth » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:56 am

I believe it was either 4 or 5....it's a gruesome backstory.

The kitsune tail hunters are something I really hope make it into the comic in the near future

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Re: [1543] value

Post by piro » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:09 am

If you want WoG on this, sorry if it got a little mangled in the background info, but Great Grandma Sawatari is currently an 8 tail, the vagueness about it sometimes comes from the fact that, well, have you ever tried to count the tails on someone like her? the assumption for a powerful old kitsune would be she'd be a 9 tail, but she's not. As for how many tails she was born with... well, if you ask her, she'd say 8 is what she was born with and 8 is what she has (if she felt like giving you a straight answer, probably only after a lot of sake and you failing to drink her under the table, but i digress).

Here's the thing about Kitsune in real life (as in, Megatokyo). The legends and myths about them are kind of askew of the reality, but thats not an unusual thing for any mythology. Kitsune are born with the number of tails they will have, they dont grow new ones as they get older and wiser. That said, they CAN *supposedly* get more tails, but they don't grow them. That is a more gruesome fable, one of course any old kitsune will deny ever happened or is even possible.

The thing about tails, if you have more than one, the spines sorta have to occupy the same space, right? If you are a one tail kitsune, you are pretty ordinary. If you have two tails, you have a bit more of a dimensional aura to you because you have two spines occupying the same space so to speak, but you cant really do anything with it. Now, once you have three or more tails, things get a little weird. For one thing, a kitsune with three or more tails can actually hide her tails and her ears (to varying degrees of success). One and two tailed kitsune cannot. (FTR, Komugiko's mother is a three tail). the more tails a kitsune has, the more... odd and powerful the spatial and dimensional bending of the world around them is, and as such the more interesting things they can do.

That said, one confusing thing for more people about Great Grandma is that she usually hides her tails. 9 tails is a LOT of awkward pain in the ass to deal with. SO, most of the kids havent really seen them much, and those times when they do see them its often fleeting and not exactly easy to count. Its also only rare for an observant kit to notice that one of her tails id definitely a different color - which could happen naturally, who knows?

So... Yakugashi's cousin was trying to scare her with the family yarn about how old great grandma would kill the trouble child Komugiko and steal her tail so she could get that final 9th tail and become all powerful, since one tailed kitsune are pretty much useless.

I tried to sorta get all that across in that omake, its in there mostly. Sorry if it came off as a little confusing.

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Re: [1543] value

Post by darrin » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:52 am

piro wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:09 am
If you want WoG on this [...]
Wow, thanks so much for this! Always nice to hear things from the True Source so to speak.
I tried to sorta get all that across in that omake, its in there mostly.
Indeed, I was taking the contents of those as given (not mentioning stuff that I figured everyone already knew), and I was pretty sure others were as well.
Sorry if it came off as a little confusing.
I wouldn't call it "confusing" (unless you mean in the positive sense that Harry Potter uses when he says "I notice that I am confused" 8-)). People taking delight in the ambiguities you craft so cleverly, and genuinely excited to see which new and wonderful parts of the forest the breadcrumb trails will lead to, would I hope not be something an author would have to be sorry for. :D

Complexity is kinda like mud. A lot of unfortunates try to avoid getting any on them as much as possible, and wash it thoroughly off as soon as they see any on them. The rest of us though (often of a STEM bent, but not exclusively -- there are plenty of different kinds of complexity in the world ;)) jump right in when we see any, wallow around in it, and get it all over us, oinking happily the whole time. :lol:
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Re: [1543] value

Post by maldrul » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:41 am

piro wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:09 am
For one thing, a kitsune with three or more tails can actually hide her tails and her ears (to varying degrees of success).
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So Megumi is at least a three tail. I knew there was a reason I liked her ;>
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Re: [1543] value

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:51 am

[/quote]
So Megumi is at least a three tail. I knew there was a reason I liked her ;>
[/quote]
Oddly, I was think the same thing... although, I like Megumi for different reasons.

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Re: [1543] value

Post by cidjen » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:53 am

piro wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:09 am
Here's the thing about Kitsune in real life (as in, Megatokyo). The legends and myths about them are kind of askew of the reality, but thats not an unusual thing for any mythology. Kitsune are born with the number of tails they will have, they dont grow new ones as they get older and wiser. That said, they CAN *supposedly* get more tails, but they don't grow them. That is a more gruesome fable, one of course any old kitsune will deny ever happened or is even possible.
Hmm that's not what I understood from the 'Visit in the Shrine' pages... I thought, the Kitsune Grandma was actually scolding Mugi for denying credibility to this old fable (dismissing it as a myth)... "by all means, continue to shelter the girl", hmm?

But... if you say so, we'll adjust the view ;) (English is not my first language, you know ;) )
maldrul wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:41 am
So Megumi is at least a three tail. I knew there was a reason I liked her ;>
Wasn't it said somewhere, that Megumi is actually a 'no-tail' ? Do I remember this right?

But then, if she had the powers, there were occurrences when having used them would have been helpful already ("this hurts more than nerf") but she did not use them? Unless she's sealed them away (the bow being the seal...?)

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Re: [1543] value

Post by Invisigoth » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:13 am

Megu would need to have more than 3 if she is able to have concealed them from birth and/or blurred the memories of her family so that they'd have forgotten.

So far all signs point to her being a mundane cousin though I wouldn't put it past Fred to be making an oblique Naruto reference with her Ninja fetish....

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Re: [1543] value

Post by eomdal » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:21 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:13 am
Megu would need to have more than 3 if she is able to have concealed them from birth and/or blurred the memories of her family so that they'd have forgotten.

So far all signs point to her being a mundane cousin though I wouldn't put it past Fred to be making an oblique Naruto reference with her Ninja fetish....
Am confused: I do not recall where it was established - or hinted - that Megumi's family is unaware of her kitsune characteristics from her family.

I look at the lower left corner of frame 5 of 1543 and see a hint.
SD seems to no longer need the tinfoil hat that it had made from merciless hammering on Occam's Razor. This is a strange state of affairs. I do hope that it finds the need for it again someday.

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Re: [1543] value

Post by McTrooper » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:34 am

I'm sure I'm being silly, but what does the last panel mean?

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Re: [1543] value

Post by paarfi » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:50 am

McTrooper wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:34 am
I'm sure I'm being silly, but what does the last panel mean?
Looks like we'll be finding out more next comic.
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Re: [1543] value

Post by Invisigoth » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:38 pm

eomdal wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:21 am
Invisigoth wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:13 am
Megu would need to have more than 3 if she is able to have concealed them from birth and/or blurred the memories of her family so that they'd have forgotten.

So far all signs point to her being a mundane cousin though I wouldn't put it past Fred to be making an oblique Naruto reference with her Ninja fetish....
Am confused: I do not recall where it was established - or hinted - that Megumi's family is unaware of her kitsune characteristics from her family.

I look at the lower left corner of frame 5 of 1543 and see a hint.
Umm perhaps I wasn't quite clear. A baby is born and it's a kitsune

you count the tails

simple

there's no indication that Megumi is hiding tails nor that she ever had any tails to be noticed by her family

So, unless she was able to conceal this by conscious effort from the womb then she's not a kitsune, just a cousin

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