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[1524] 13 cm

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Invisigoth
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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by Invisigoth » Thu May 17, 2018 1:51 pm

GouryG wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:36 am
SpaceCobraJoe wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 4:49 am
Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 1:12 pm
Is 13 cm big in Megatokyo?
No, it means that GPS in Megatokyo is accurate to within 6 inches.
Well it is possible that Ping may have access to a military grade GPS transponder.
She's using Junko's phone...

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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by iffy » Thu May 17, 2018 2:08 pm

NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:03 pm
I don’t entirely understand what’s happening here. Ping doesn’t know anything about initiating sex, so she’s about to pop into the Foxhole for...what, advice?
From the dialog here (and also as she said before to Junko) she believed it was under her control, but found out in actually there's no data there to understand anything, and so in somewhat a panic she wants to look up data on the basic subject which to her is love. So some advice, instruction, starting information to build upon. Which then what Miho said about her being quite real is only as true as anatomy but not fully true as knowing what a real person would learn over years of living. Which also seems to show Ping doesn't at all understand what Junko is doing or why, can't relate to the topic.
Have people come to the conclusion yet that this creepy old guy isn’t Ping’s programmer or a secret shopper or an agent deployed to take her out, or are we still tossing those theories around?
Friend, confidant, client, source of information, boy toy of Junko; or designer, creator, builder, programmer of Ping? His attitude and behavior and questions/answers suggests he knows who this is, but that could just be part of the ways he and Junko interact, role playing, play acting. We don't really have any idea of how they interact, or for how long they'd known each other from what circumstances, aside from Junko apparently actually liking him, and holding him in high-regard if not awe. Him, at this point, it doesn't appear there's anything to know. Only perception.
What a convoluted story path this is, fueled entirely by Ping’s cluelessness. How the hell did she come to the conclusion that Junko shouldn’t meet up with someone she clearly wanted to see?
Something's gone haywire with her programming. Given the circumstances, this could be part of a Miho-story, Miho's Piro-demonstration, a plot by whoever made Ping or wants to take her over, something Ed is doing, or a side-effect of absorbing Miho's powers and/or amalgamating all the stories everyone's been having. Where we've ended up may suggest some are more likely than others, or that there's some sort of intelligence and intent involved. Still, it could just be some of Ping's routines are "insane".


Sackett wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:22 pm
Huh... I was pretty sure that what was going on was that Ping was trying to meet with Junko's creepy "dates" so that Ping could handle breaking up with them.
Whatever Ping has interpreted about the situation, it seems pretty clear Ping thinks she is "saving" Junko, because she wants to, and because of the chances Junko might show up wants to accelerate it (1323 i am doing this so she does not have to, this is my choice, i'm sure this will speed things up). Doesn't seem like breaking up is the plan. Yet whatever Ping is trying to do in accelerating these bold saucy styled interactions, she is demonstrating she has an almost total lack of knowledge. No idea of what is involved, no specifics, just some vague ideas. Details are missing from her personality and experience and frame of reference.
Junko has been so vocal on how much she hates the men she "dates" that the fact Junko seems to think this guy is "different" seems to have escaped Ping's attention.
Indeed, it appears Ping stopped paying attention to what Junko was saying or how she was saying it. Which might suggest a total immersion into only 'what Ping wants'. Does that more suggest somebody has put this selfish focus into place (be that this guy via Junko's phone, the absorption of Analogue-power, something else) or does it suggest Ping is faulty or that she's moving towards full autonomy.

It might not be at all true, but it's probably at least reasonable to conclude that it's all of that in some way. Ping wasn't being a PS2 accessory or receiving the paths and play styles of characters inside a game. She was hanging around Largo and Piro. Then still no more absorbing written plotted characters, but being Miho's best friend. Then variously getting zapped, emotionally purging, set off on game paths involving Piro, losing track of Miho, interacting with Kimiko and Erika, getting programmed and enhanced by Largo including outfitted with translator functionality, getting terrorized by Ed, becoming Junko's partner in crime. And apparently according to Miho absorbing Analogueness, yet like Kenji and others, almost or effectively being part of The Horde to the point Junko has to disconnect her from outside at least partly. Now, all the physical and emotional changes, but seeming smashing into a brick wall. Has Ping 'gone crazy'? Or is she just doing the android equivalent of growing up at a late but accelerated pace. Which is also difficult to categorize, because of such things as not knowing how biological she might be.

So maybe all the things that have happened to Ping slowed down the way she was supposed to grow, precluded most of it entirely even, and now what she does have, is all catching up at once.
Or maybe Ping is supposed to be here now because it's where Miho is going to show up, not that it's necessarily any person who arranged that to happen.
Or something else entirely.
Although now you are making me confused and concerned.
Given all the potentials and possibilities around, I don't know how anyone wouldn't feel confused to at least some extent. Concerned too. It's pretty much the mood Ping is in as well. ( Perhaps she's absorbed Miho and so now we're absorbing her. ; )

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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by darrin » Thu May 17, 2018 8:07 pm

NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:03 pm
Have people come to the conclusion yet that this creepy old guy isn’t Ping’s programmer or a secret shopper or an agent deployed to take her out, or are we still tossing those theories around?
I feel like I've already said most of the below in posts over the past few strip threads. I hate repeating myself but maybe putting it all in one place might be worth something.

When I first mentioned the possibility that this isn't a date at all, but a meeting for some other (legitimate) purpose, I didn't feel like this was a random guess I was just tossing around. There were specific observations in 1522 that 'raised a flag' so to speak (barely consciously at first), that made me go back and look at 1507-1508 again, at which point things started gelling together into a single pattern.

1) 1507. Junko says, before reading the notification, "Which stupid lover is it this time?" But in the last panel she doesn't say "Oh, that one", or even "Oh, not a stupid one, the nice one!" She says "That's today?" Not "that date", just "that". It comes across very strongly as if this is a change of topic for her; "that" isn't referring to the set of dates/clients being discussed two panels back, it's something else. She's very flustered, which might be explainable by the implication in the next strip that she has more "feelings" for this person than for her other clients. But if today is the "date" with the one she "likes", why isn't she happier about it? "Oh, awesome, not one of the stupid ones after all! :D" She gives a much stronger impression that this is something she wanted to be better prepared for but that somehow slipped her mind, a stark contrast to her previously seen cool-as-a-cucumber approach to her "clients". In short, Junko is not acting like this is yet another EK date.

2) 1508. Junko describes the person she is meeting as "not stupid... a gentleman... Intelligent, mature, older". She rushes off to prepare with only a perfunctory farewell to Ping, in stark contrast to the close attention she's been paying to Ping over this and the previous chapter (or two?). If he is just another "sleazeball/fuckface/ephebophile" whathaveyou, then either Junko is deeply mistaken about his character, or else she is lying about him to Ping for some reason. But distinguishing between the mildly pervvy ones (who can be strung along for money without her doing anything sexually regrettable) and the actually pervvy ones (from whom she could actually be in danger of one form or another) is literally how she makes her living; making such a mistake could have her end up in an alley or worse. Lying to Ping also seems far-fetched; Junko could simply have said "Yup, another stupid lover" to Ping and left it at that. So assuming Junko is not lying or mistaken, the person she is meeting is quite different from her typical EK clients.

3. 1522, panels 2 and 3. The "gentleman" seems at least mildly confused by the message he is looking at, and even more confused when he looks up at "Junko". In a previous post I listed the blatant differences between Ping's appearance here and the real Junko: more heaviset, electronic devices sticking out of the sides of her head, heterochromia that appears to be changing or at least increasing in intensity from panel to panel. By panel 5 though he has completely recovered, and begins acting as if nothing unusual were going on. Either he is oblivious to the changes and really thinks this is Junko; or doesn't care that it's not Junko; or... he recognizes Ping, and wants to meet with Ping as much as with Junko. Take your pick; my opinion though is that the first 2 are pretty unlikely a priori (again, Junko is supposed to be good at what she does; one would expect a client who has paid or plans to pay for her particular services to, well get what he's paid for, or want to know the reason why).

4. 1522, panels 7 and 8. He has succeeded in playing it cool so far, but the phrase "old man" stops him short, and instead of passing it off he explicitly admits that he was reacting to that, that it was a phrase "remarkable for [her] to say." (It wouldn't make sense for him to be reacting that way to the word "surprise", since he said that first; and "old man" is literally the only other thing in Ping's statement.) The literal meaning of the word would be unlikely to trigger such a reaction (he's obviously not a young guy, and if he were sensitive / in denial about his age Junko probably wouldn't have latched onto his "maturity" as a positive point). So... "old man", as in father? The gentleman is taken aback, to the point of not even attempting to cover it up, by the inadvertent suggestion Ping is his daughter.

5. 1523, panels 3 and 8. His phrasing is carefully guarded. I did grant in an earlier post that "What would that be?" could just be a feeble way of keeping himself out of trouble ("Honest officer, it was her idea, I never woulda suggested that!" But of all the bazillions of things Fred could have had a client (esp. a "sleazeball/fuckface/ephebophile" one) say, the guy specifically chooses the most coy and inexplicit one possible (as if he were somehow aware of. and waiting patiently for her to work through, her current algorithmic distress :D).

Occam's razor gets a real bum rap around here; it was referred to as a "crutch" a few threads back for example. But it's only a "crutch" if you say "this is the simplest thing I can think of, so it must be right!" If you use it to guesstimate the relative likelihoods of hypotheses that you already have in hand though, that's pretty much how it is supposed to be used; it's more or less a rather roundabout / metaphorical expression of how probabilities basically work.

Under the "this is an EK date" hypothesis space, the above points (and whatever other oddities of the past few strips someone might care to add) are all unrelated coincidences, with no single model to explain them. They just happened to happen; whatever guess you have for the a priori probability of each, you multiply those 5 (or more) numbers together, and whatever you're left with, that's about how likely we should be to expect to see all this, starting from 1507 and being told only "Junko is about to meet an older guy."

Me on the other hand, yes, I had to make an assumption most would consider a rather big stretcher (a currently completely unsupported one at that). This isn't a date, this isn't a client, Junko wanted to meet him for some other reason; why? Dunno, something to do with Ping most likely? Because Junko's been spending more time with Ping than with anyone else. But with that one stretcher, I can pull in all 5 of the above, as consequences of that, without any penalty incurred in multiplying independent probabilities. Junko's treating him not like a client because he's not a client; she considers him intelligent because he has already convinced her (somehow, not yet seen) that he has something useful to contribute to her relation with Ping; he recognizes Ping and responds accordingly because he has some prior relationship with Ping, very likely a close one. Yes it's a stretcher, yes there's no explicit evidence, but it ties the past few strips together in a way that the idea he's an EK douche just hasn't managed to for me yet.

On another note... woah, is my avatar (and latest rescript :P) back? Or is it just a glitch (I am seeing my own crap but nobody else can)? Did photobucket actually cave? :lol:
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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by GouryG » Thu May 17, 2018 8:59 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:51 pm
GouryG wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:36 am
SpaceCobraJoe wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 4:49 am


No, it means that GPS in Megatokyo is accurate to within 6 inches.
Well it is possible that Ping may have access to a military grade GPS transponder.
She's using Junko's phone...
Maybe she is up linking to the phone? (Thought I might toss that idea out there)
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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by arimareiji » Thu May 17, 2018 10:02 pm

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:03 am
Well, if this is going all to the same train station... this will not lead to any sort of mental or physical scarring.

I sense some sort of post coitus scene ala Life of Brian if he looks out a window(do not remember seeing one) or answers the door(the hallway would not be large enough. Maybe, all of a sudden, their room will grow a full curtained double glass door that opens onto a tiny outside porch looking down on the main street.
I absolutely love your mental image. XD

If I might contribute...
Ping: "He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty artist! Now go away!"
(Sadly, I doubt the scene of Brian opening his window is anywhere to be found on the 'net. Imagine Piro doing the same.)
NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:03 pm
I don’t entirely understand what’s happening here. Ping doesn’t know anything about initiating sex, so she’s about to pop into the Foxhole for...what, advice? To rent a room? She’s trying to literally prostitute herself to earn money for Junko, right? This really is a dark direction for the comic.

Have people come to the conclusion yet that this creepy old guy isn’t Ping’s programmer or a secret shopper or an agent deployed to take her out, or are we still tossing those theories around?

What a convoluted story path this is, fueled entirely by Ping’s cluelessness. How the hell did she come to the conclusion that Junko shouldn’t meet up with someone she clearly wanted to see?

Kudos to Fred for making this so uncomfortable to read; it reflects very well how awkward the situation is.
+1
I'm reminded of a Dune-series quote which I hope I'm not butchering too badly: "One may follow logic unerringly to the point of disaster".
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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by Sackett » Fri May 18, 2018 1:40 am

iffy wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:08 pm

Sackett wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:22 pm
Huh... I was pretty sure that what was going on was that Ping was trying to meet with Junko's creepy "dates" so that Ping could handle breaking up with them.
Whatever Ping has interpreted about the situation, it seems pretty clear Ping thinks she is "saving" Junko, because she wants to, and because of the chances Junko might show up wants to accelerate it (1323 i am doing this so she does not have to, this is my choice, i'm sure this will speed things up). Doesn't seem like breaking up is the plan. Yet whatever Ping is trying to do in accelerating these bold saucy styled interactions, she is demonstrating she has an almost total lack of knowledge. No idea of what is involved, no specifics, just some vague ideas. Details are missing from her personality and experience and frame of reference.
Junko has been so vocal on how much she hates the men she "dates" that the fact Junko seems to think this guy is "different" seems to have escaped Ping's attention.
Indeed, it appears Ping stopped paying attention to what Junko was saying or how she was saying it. Which might suggest a total immersion into only 'what Ping wants'. Does that more suggest somebody has put this selfish focus into place (be that this guy via Junko's phone, the absorption of Analogue-power, something else) or does it suggest Ping is faulty or that she's moving towards full autonomy.
Well, wouldn't a simpler explanation be that Ping has started to learn that people can say one thing even when they even something else, and so when trying to interpret what Junko truly desires has put greater weight on the extensive and repeated assessment of Junko's clients as jerkish men who seek to sexually exploit her and who deserve to get slapped around, and discounted the single comment of Junko that "this one client is different."

Now an adult would be able to parse this and determine that the exception Junko is noting should be considered the override and controlling description. However, I can easily see a person with the mental experience of an 8 to 12 year old listening to this and deciding that "clients are jerks" should be the override and controlling description because Junko said it more often and with greater emphasis.

Actually, I can recall several discussions with younger siblings that went something like this:
Me: Why did you do that? I told you not to do that!
Young Sibling: You said Rule X, and I followed Rule X.
Me: I clearly said Situation Y is an exception to Rule X!
Young Sibling: Well you said Rule X a lot more, so I thought that was more important than Situation Y. You can't get mad when I followed Rule X like you said too.

Also, I originally thought Ping was trying to push along the date to improper actions by the client so as to justify violence against him.

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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by BetaCygnus » Fri May 18, 2018 3:07 am

NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:03 pm
She’s trying to literally prostitute herself to earn money for Junko, right?
I don’t think so, NinjaDef:r.
I’d rather think Ping is in a way choosing to — but not equipped to — "sacrifice" what belongs to her, in order for Junko not having to go through that (again). True — though naive — friendship, and stuff.…

If so, it would explain Ping’s frustration a bit better — at least, to my limited understanding of what I often perceive as The MT Chaos™.

=)

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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by jkhartl » Fri May 18, 2018 10:40 am

This situation with Ping 'what do I do now' is reminiscent of Piro in strips 43 and 44. Trying to use shoujo manga to help decide 'what do I do now'.
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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by darrin » Fri May 18, 2018 11:45 am

arimareiji wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:02 pm
Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:03 am
Well, if this is going all to the same train station... this will not lead to any sort of mental or physical scarring.

I sense some sort of post coitus scene ala Life of Brian if he looks out a window(do not remember seeing one) or answers the door(the hallway would not be large enough. Maybe, all of a sudden, their room will grow a full curtained double glass door that opens onto a tiny outside porch looking down on the main street.
I absolutely love your mental image. XD
Yeah me too :D

I am also reminded of the Futurama episode where Fry and Leela head off for a "secluded" romantic getaway that turns out to be an (alien) primate zoo for observing particular... behaviors that the two were planning on engaging in.

After it all goes south I definitely wanna hear Yuki yell at them "YOU GUYS WERE IN A ZOO!"

EDIT:
arimareiji wrote: I'm reminded of a Dune-series quote which I hope I'm not butchering too badly: "One may follow logic unerringly to the point of disaster".
I also like Star Trek VI: "Even logic must give way to physics." 8-)
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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by Roborat » Fri May 18, 2018 3:42 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:51 pm
GouryG wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:36 am
SpaceCobraJoe wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 4:49 am


No, it means that GPS in Megatokyo is accurate to within 6 inches.
Well it is possible that Ping may have access to a military grade GPS transponder.
She's using Junko's phone...
I thought they had turned off the scrambling, and civilian GPS was as accurate as military now?

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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by BetaCygnus » Fri May 18, 2018 4:34 pm

jkhartl wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 10:40 am
This situation with Ping 'what do I do now' is reminiscent of Piro in strips 43 and 44. Trying to use shoujo manga to help decide 'what do I do now'.
That might be a very astute comparison, jkhartl. =)

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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by iffy » Fri May 18, 2018 4:56 pm

Whatever it is, it's Junko's phone listing Ping is 13cm away from it. Probably more like steak knives, bears that have fallen off their beds, and origami money.

darrin wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:07 pm
I feel like I've already said most of the below in posts over the past few strip threads. I hate repeating myself but maybe putting it all in one place might be worth something.
Excellent verbalization of the details and of why thus (at this point in the absence of more) he isn't necessarily a client. The kind of thing we mentally put together but often can't well explain why we put it together, you have done so I think. The key might seem to be "That's today?" as if it was an existing appointment of sorts she can't believe she forgot.

There are lots of things it could be about yet and still, but what sort of thing would make her essentially forget about Ping, get flustered, become rather unlike herself. If he's a client, it's not a usual one either way. Although the way she subverts her own focus on Ping, that may make it seem unlikely her relationship with him concerns Ping. But also could be Junko only being preoccupied due to how she could be 'forgetting something like this!'
Junko's treating him not like a client because he's not a client; she considers him intelligent because he has already convinced her (somehow, not yet seen) that he has something useful to contribute to her relation with Ping; he recognizes Ping and responds accordingly because he has some prior relationship with Ping, very likely a close one.
There's no big direct causal link to be pointed out as established somehow through observation and statement, but they mostly all mostly flow smoothly in filling in the gaps, which if we go with 'simpler is better when you don't know' is likely the best, tentative, at this point, "answer". Which could change in an instant as we know, with a even only a single clarifier during the process.

Yet there is another consideration outside of the comic itself, which is the way it's all crafted, what is shown and told and what is left out, the obvious meta. We are not watching something just happening in real time or seeing something spontaneous that involves people who don't know they're under observation doing unplanned things. This is not random or chance. On our side it may seem there are 'permutations and combinations' (so to speak) but there is actually only a single thing possible. Even if that thing changes before being set, the result is mostly deterministic, and largely not any of coincidence, probability or independence. Depending on how much free-will we assign to the characters, who do indeed often have a mind of their own. But if we need a two rolled, it's very easy to get that result 100% of the time, if that's what's decided. Although doing it in a way that doesn't draw The Horde would seem that it would often be difficult.
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Sackett wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:40 am
Well, wouldn't a simpler explanation be that Ping has started to learn that people can say one thing even when they even something else, and so when trying to interpret what Junko truly desires has put greater weight on the extensive and repeated assessment of Junko's clients
I think it's important to consider that Ping (especially given she is ostensibly a computer) seemed to fully ignore major changes in Junko's demeanor and behavior.

That's not unexpected, Ping has often not acted as a machine sort, and has often been "broken" in her emotional and scenario/story/plot-following capabilities. But it still doesn't seem as simple as Ping deciding Junko was sugar-coating a bitter pill, but a near total lack of perceiving anything, perhaps already after reaching some unchangeable opinion based upon feelings. Ping acting in Ping's interest according to what Ping wants, or having some switch flipped. Whatever happened and however it works.
However, I can easily see a person with the mental experience of an 8 to 12 year old listening to this and deciding that "clients are jerks" should be the override and controlling description
Oh very certainly. As we just saw Ping thought she knew what somebody Yakugashi's age already essentially knows to some extent, but Ping finds out after scenario A abruptly stops she actually has just about zero.

If Ping is thinking socially on her programmed age (which is what overall and what per subject) plus some of what she's learned since, she could be acting 25 years but thinking more like 25 months, or maybe she had nothing much programmed ever and learned whatever she has learned in the 10 weeks since we first saw her, combined with however long this project investor had her before that, and whatever happened between creation and that. Depending on how she was created when by who. (Maybe like Largo called Miho out of the Necrowombicon, Ping was conjured somehow and isn't quite what we think, and no I don't believe that.)

Like in many ways with Miho, we don't know how recent Ping is, except apparently has been not fully programmed or whatever process it was. And sometimes, based upon Miho's recent behaviors, I wonder if she might not be in much the same place Ping is. Although that behavior tends more to seem a reflection of who Miho is with right now, but that all remains to be seen. With Ping though, it's clearer since we see what's in her head about it not being present (or at least not where she can get to it the way she was trying).

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Re: [1524] 13 cm

Post by cidjen » Sat May 19, 2018 3:18 pm

darrin wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:29 pm
cidjen wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:43 am
damn programmers
Everyone always blames us. :roll: It's Product that gives us the requirements you know, we are just expected to deliver.
Hehe true, but this installation looks like QA did not get the job done checking if all the parts that she was told / implied to be hers, were really installed. Or she did partially lose memory due to all the stress of losing a friend and crying over it.
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