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[1512] Which one

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cidjen
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by cidjen » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:10 am

paarfi wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:44 am
cidjen wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:31 am
Hope this isn't taboo on the forums, but looking at twitch recordings
It would be a good thing, please, if people did not spoiler the upcoming comic in the forum, at least until it has been posted to patreon. It has happened before, not badly and not often, and I've just let it slide. But to be more clear, I'll start mentioning it when I post announcements that Fred has started on the next comic.
"Some continuation" isn't a big deal of giveaway I think :) but I won't do that again, promise :)

But tbh I can see people commenting on twitch, same nicks as here, which I won't be able to participate in (time zones are a bitch, also the recordings are pretty long, I can only skip to some key frames with the little time I have for that, and I don't have a twitch account) i'd say it deprives the forum of at least the possibility to mention the mood of the next comic... If no one is allowed to mention even what they perceive as the mood of the next comic, because they have seen it, then the forum discussion with the likes of me really dies out.
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by louisxiv » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:44 am

If comments on twitch streams are banned I’m mildly surprised that comment on the in-advance Patreon posts is allowed. It seems inconsistant.

Of course I'm not particularly worried about spoilers myself. I rather welcome them, like I view trailers, read reviews, etc, as I know what to look out for and have a better context when I actually see the page (film, book, whatnot).

I do Patreon, but often don't check it before the public website post — this current PxK arc excepted.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by paarfi » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:05 am

cidjen wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:10 am
If no one is allowed to mention even what they perceive as the mood of the next comic, because they have seen it, then the forum discussion with the likes of me really dies out.
I understand. But there are a lot of forum folks here who do not check the Twitch stream and would prefer not to be spoilered. I think we should respect that. Most of the discussion about the comic-in-progress takes place in the Twitch chat itself, so there is a place for people who want that. I know that doesn't work for you, for technical and time-zone reasons. I'm sorry there doesn't seem to be a good solution that works for everyone. The Twitch chat is accessible through an IRC client, and that's how many of us use it. If the Twitch website itself is too heavy for your computer or connection, you might consider trying that instead.
https://help.twitch.tv/customer/portal/ ... twitch-irc
louisxiv wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:44 am
If comments on twitch streams are banned I’m mildly surprised that comment on the in-advance Patreon posts is allowed. It seems inconsistant.
Well, again, there is no perfect solution here. We do make the first post of every thread an announcement that it has been posted to Patreon but not yet the main site, as an extra warning that non-Patreon folks who don't want to be spoilered should avoid that new thread until it is released on the main site. But posting about the up-coming comic in the previous comic's thread doesn't give people that same opportunity to avoid it.

I suppose if people posted in the current thread but used the spoiler tags and warned that the upcoming comic was being spoilered, that might be ok. What do y'all think?
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by louisxiv » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:23 am

Suggestion: once page X goes generally public open up Topic X+1 ready for twitch, patreon and other spoilers.

IF Super Mod time and powerz permit, actively move excessively spoilery posts from topic X to X+1...

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by cidjen » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:25 am

Well considering that not everyone is considerate enough to not spoil the fun for others, I can see what you mean...

Also it's probably not welcome for the mods to go around and add spoiler tags if they think something constitutes one...
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by iffy » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:03 pm

Three nines of the time I pay about zero attention to the upcoming comic until it's posted here, including skipping any comments or chatter about it. Also don't look at new comic or thread about it until finished with the current existing thread. (Although sometimes I go back later to fill in a point, from time to time) If the new comic was up, I would finish current comments here before looking at it. Besides the transitory nature of things in progress, watching it in progress can give false impressions or cloud later ones with things that aren't there or don't happen in the finished version. Same thing with early comments, might get some impression from things written about what's being done that aren't in play later. Does seeing it in work give good impressions on the mindset of why things are happening, or are there gags and jokes and misdirections going on that give the opposite impression of the mindset, lead viewers astray..... Well that's the trick now isn't it.

But why talk about what seems to be happening next in comic x+1 while discussing what we think of what's happening now in comic x? There's a reason each comic has its own story discussion thread. :)

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by Invisigoth » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:09 pm

paarfi wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:38 pm
Roamer wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:24 pm
It also improves my impression of Masamichi - not only did he survive the experience more or less unscathed, but he's determined to see that Yuki takes as little damage from her own learning curve as he can possibly arrange. Which may be why he's willing to have Largo around her. Largo's a first class loose cannon and not too tightly screwed together, but he protects his friends.
I'd expect that Masamichi does not know that Largo is mentoring Yuki. Meimi knows, of course, but she doesn't tell Masamichi about Yuki's magical girling any more than she has to [1036].
I'm pretty sure that Largo's alledged mentoring consist of nothing more than advise on some fashion accessories (wear sensible gear) and of course some very bad advise. After all he was clueless as to the capabilities of Magical Girls in comparison to a Rent'a'Zilla.

If anything Largo would fall under the category of side kick or familiar and be in a sort of competition with Yutaka. If Erika ever found out that he ruined dinner with Meimi and Masamichi so he could chase their 15 year old daughter across town he'd likely have a much longer stay in the hospital

Once again people fail to catch the joke.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by akphoffman » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:57 pm

If this story is following some kind of "hero's journey," this seems like one of those perfect points for the "abyss, death, rebirth" moment for Piro. Where he begins his transformation. It is my hope the story has some structure like a "hero's journey," because I find those very satisfying.

The symbolism here of a lava hotel room, and Kimiko's portrayal of her/miho's death, could be taken as "going to hell and back" for the one you love. I can't help but see the potential and it reminds me of the journey of Orpheus and Eurydice.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by iffy » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm

It seemed pretty clear Erika was aware of what Largo said to her in clubbing may be required . Even if the obvious isn't, that still she was up for going along with whatever crazy nonsense he was up to for whatever reason. As if she's really a lot like him.

Which brings up another point anyway, that relationship that developed between Eirka and Largo, and then maybe Piro and ?. Perhaps asking if Piro is more like Kimiko, more like Miho, or more like neither. Or a bit of them both. Which leads into 'dying for the story' as maybe a way to try and answer some of that.

In Endgames, Miho gets to die twice, sort of. First Moh from in game directly and then Miho from out of game in the permaban. And yet, actually or in a way, neither dies. Piro is maintaining the account, so that out of game story rather continues, especially with Pirogoeth has duplicated a version of Moh so to speak, which covers in game. Then clearly, Miho was in Megatokyo when the two of Largo and Piro arrive later.

During the time between. Whatever happened with Meimi had probably finished before Endgames (perhaps the reason Miho was at the ASF trolling for whatever reasons) and that was done. But not yet potentially the main interactions with Junko, Erika, Yuki. Not all of those are stories. Or at least not in all of them did Miho die.... although we don't really know about Meimi, supposedly with Junko she only vanished, and Erika is unclear, Yuki that wasn't apparently over. Except according to the conversation with Masamichi at Megagamers, it at least put her in the ASF, which apparently going there (in whatever heath she has or not) counts as dying, maybe.

Then Miho starts playing games with Piro, Largo. Ping. Yuki. And in many ways with a lot of others. Apparently Miho has changed, in that she's playing out in Megatokyo proper with real people (allegedly that is not the way for an Analogue, out being the real thing in person) and that she has some feelings for others she doesn't usually get it's only a portrayal of the subject involved in stories. Miho feels affinity with, even bad for Ping, who perhaps absorbs something of importance (and not entirely smoothly for Ping's circuitry equivalent). Develops some apparent bond with Kimiko. At the least. Given how she's monitoring what Largo and Piro are doing and helping Erika with the Sonoda family and with Kimiko in various things like Dom's attempts at gaining control and having the radio show happen.

There is Miho impacting a lot of things all along. Finding out how Largo felt about dying in Endgames, seeing if Piro was interested in playing with Ping, telling Piro that Largo was in bad shape after that thing with Erika, helping Kimiko out of the diner... ( Well there, Miho was Ed's target, she just inserts herself into what Dom is doing at the time with Kimiko maybe.) Aside from directly interacting such as at Megagamers, there are at least indications she is influencing Erika, to help out Largo? Is she doing the same for Piro with Kimiko? We don't get much direct about why Miho is doing anything. But clearly she's more wired in about what's going on than might seem normal. It's just guesswork mostly that Miho is playing matchmaker.

Whatever was going on, it appears to reach a endpoint at the end of Ikebukuro, where it is pretty well established Erika and Largo are ExL, and evidently given what has happened (and what both Piro and Kimiko talk about to others, and how they're thought of) are PxK. And Miho takes her leave, to go off and die or return to the ASF or however that works. By using Ed as an excuse, no matter if only he thinks he killed her and Meimi feels something about it. As if it doesn't matter what story ends or she dies in, if she's gone, people forget.

Only once again, not fully is she dead or gone. Many others forget, most all, but Ping remembers. This leads, through Junko, to Yuki and Piro learning/finding/remembering/thinking of the past. So even though 'hey she's at the epicenter of a killball blast nobody could survive that even if they have previously jumped out of the middle of one in nanoseconds' dead, or cloned, or copied or however that works, she's not gone. We don't know if she was supposed to return, if Ping or Piro or Yuki are holding her back somehow from her dying or everyone else dying as is proper. But she does get returned. Because the story isn't over? Or because there's a new one already? It might be the story isn't the one everyone thinks it is either.

We do have Piro and Kimiko working on implementing Sight (Kimiko is probably unsurprisingly far more proactive about it; she's gotten some clarity and insight apparently) and also on saving Miho. Maybe that's the same thing, and how compelling things get created. There are two things that are close but different; Kimiko is more proactive about Kotone, Piro's more proactive about Miho, we could say. Seems to fit. Until through a lot of events separately, it all comes together and the story is again supposed to end, apparently. KxP is on its way again, Miho dies. But they're working again together, Piro with Kimiko's help saves her. And again, but now Miho is apparently actively trying to get the failsafe to remove her like she wants and needs, and a lot of others are also working for. But zounds, it reverses, Kimiko is in there saving Miho while Piro is helping her instead. And it works, again shoving towards KxP. It certainly seems that Kimiko and Piro are a lot alike, except when it comes to rehashing the past, although Kimiko seems to be at least willing to go along with whatever Piro needs to do. In that sense, the pair is a lot like Erika and Largo, though certainly not in the details. Then again, in this focus on the past and whatever is still unresolved fully, maybe that seems more like Piro being like Miho. Whatever it is she is.

Yet like before, Miho has gone, but isn't dead. Maybe to most unaffiliated she is dead, but not to the main players, or at least they know she's not, even if some are forgetting her, and others remember somewhat. Miho is elsewhere, no longer the active target, and giving all indications there's a new story forming. Which might very well be interrupted. Yakugashi has gathered Junpei to go interfere, another Yuki-like situation perhaps. What, that depends on a lot of things, like whatever happens next to whoever, in whatever we continue on with or move to, and when.

If whatever is going on with KxP isn't quite yet still solid, lots of things could happen. But if that is resolved, or soon is, does another story take Miho and the rest another direction totally? Does Miho just die or cease to exist, her work done? Does Ping or somebody else take over? Where does it lead, nobody yet knows, but that's another story. Well, this meta one continuing anyway.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by cidjen » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:01 pm

[btw thanks @iffy for breaking into paragraphs, appreciated]

I would say Meimi stopped her mgkgrrll days (but haven't given up her powers like Ririka did) before Yuki was born or even earlier before Yujui.

I think the 'fainting spells' are also actually Miho's deaths - followed by respawns in the same place. We have seen this in the school bathroom and outside of the arcade when Largo was playing Mosh Mosh with Ping. Or at least they would eventually lead to death.

The 'body swap', with the ILoveYou scene, could have brought to Piro's attention, what he actively avoided even looking at, even after resuscitation of Miho, that there's still much more to Miho than he is seeing; but he needed Kimiko to spell it out for him, and Kimiko superimposed Miho's expression of love with her own (see 'nothing ever lives up to what I feel inside'), maybe even could break her (Kimiko) out of that self depreciation, both Piro and her need that.

Of course she may be mistaking Miho's remorse for when Miho thought that Piro died, for love (since Miho stops one word before actually confessing that), but then even better if the Feeling Kimiko channeled is her own; ok so there is also the sentence with 'the people she loves die in her story' which could on surface be the concealed love confession; but since Miho thinks she cannot love again, I don't think we should imply that she actually can;

I said that somewhere, I think it's worth repeating : Miho is like an ending to a story, played over and over again. She can't change how the story ends, by herself only. She needs ninja edits and foxy authors (foxy writers? Is there an English or Japanese phrase or idiom or a phrasal to this kind of effect? Sorry my English isn't creative enough) to change it.
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by NinjaDefenestrator » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:48 pm

Interesting thoughts about Endgames. This Miho is technically different than the one who got permabanned, since she died and was resurrected in a slightly altered form. How does that parse with the game’s ToS?

(by different form, I mean that this time she seems to have been “called back” by Ping and Junko posting so much stuff online, rather than the Cave of Evil denizens who presumably summon a character with fewer specific story details)

Also, unless time moves differently within Endgames’ “persistent universe,” Pirogoeth’s baby can’t be more than a year and a half old. Hardly a character in their own right. I suspect the kid we saw in the background of that one panel might have been a Fred herring. https://megatokyo.com/strip/1345

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by NinjaDefenestrator » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:15 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:09 pm
I'm pretty sure that Largo's alleged mentoring consist of nothing more than advise on some fashion accessories (wear sensible gear) and of course some very bad advise. After all he was clueless as to the capabilities of Magical Girls in comparison to a Rent'a'Zilla.

If anything Largo would fall under the category of side kick or familiar and be in a sort of competition with Yutaka. If Erika ever found out that he ruined dinner with Meimi and Masamichi so he could chase their 15 year old daughter across town he'd likely have a much longer stay in the hospital

Once again people fail to catch the joke.
Well, he did let her borrow his phone. You’re right though; that doesn’t count as mentoring. I wouldn’t even go so far as to call him a sidekick. More like a crazy older acquaintance who facilitates chaos rather than helps to resolve it. It’s not like he cares much about her (or anyone besides Piro and Erika) except as a useful resource or an interesting diversion.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by Roamer » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:34 pm

paarfi wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:38 pm
Roamer wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:24 pm
It also improves my impression of Masamichi - not only did he survive the experience more or less unscathed, but he's determined to see that Yuki takes as little damage from her own learning curve as he can possibly arrange. Which may be why he's willing to have Largo around her. Largo's a first class loose cannon and not too tightly screwed together, but he protects his friends.
I'd expect that Masamichi does not know that Largo is mentoring Yuki. Meimi knows, of course, but she doesn't tell Masamichi about Yuki's magical girling any more than she has to [1036].
Oh, I'm pretty sure he doesn't know about the mentoring. But the fact that he was willing to let them even meet, and more, eat dinner together is a surprise, given Largo's demonstrated ability to create chaos and Masamichi's attitude towards him. Recall his reaction upon hearing that Erika was dating him [805], still one of my favorite Masamichi moments...

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by Roamer » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:14 pm

NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:15 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:09 pm
I'm pretty sure that Largo's alleged mentoring consist of nothing more than advise on some fashion accessories (wear sensible gear) and of course some very bad advise. After all he was clueless as to the capabilities of Magical Girls in comparison to a Rent'a'Zilla.

If anything Largo would fall under the category of side kick or familiar and be in a sort of competition with Yutaka. If Erika ever found out that he ruined dinner with Meimi and Masamichi so he could chase their 15 year old daughter across town he'd likely have a much longer stay in the hospital

Once again people fail to catch the joke.
Well, he did let her borrow his phone. You’re right though; that doesn’t count as mentoring. I wouldn’t even go so far as to call him a sidekick. More like a crazy older acquaintance who facilitates chaos rather than helps to resolve it. It’s not like he cares much about her (or anyone besides Piro and Erika) except as a useful resource or an interesting diversion.
It doesn't matter why he does it or his goals; the fact is, he has mentored her. He was able to figure out what she was within seconds of seeing her powered up. (TCPD should have him on retainer just for that ability.)
- Largo's two great talents are that he isn't locked into the conventions of what abilities and powers can do, and that he makes people believe in themselves just by believing in them ["I don't play games that aren't worth playing"]. He's given Yuki the first of these, and given what she did to Yukata by accident, the self confidence boost will be useful as well.
-To expand on the above, he created a stealth MG - allowing her to escape the common idea of what a MG is - and fundamentally changed the way people view Yuki, simply by having her dress in a less flashy manner. The way the crowd refused to acknowledge her simply because of how she was dressed seems to strongly correlate with what Miho said about changing costumes to escape a scene. Sure, there have been 'sneaky MGs before, but what Largo's done with Yuki is different. (Possibly just because the MG has to be shown how to do it; the old 'Cat Burglar' anime such as Cat's Eye featured costumes that hid the girl's identity but were still very high-profile). The Cat's Eye sisters, in costume or not, always dressed to kill, a pretty common trope with that style of show. Maybe just not being eye candy is enough.
-He's encouraged her to use her skills in new and different ways. Given how strongly the clothing seems to make the character in MT, what can a Magical Girl dressed up as, say, a Ninja, capable of? Just how closely tied together are the clothes and the powers?

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by cidjen » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:45 pm

NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:48 pm
Interesting thoughts about Endgames. This Miho is technically different than the one who got permabanned, since she died and was resurrected in a slightly altered form. How does that parse with the game’s ToS?

(by different form, I mean that this time she seems to have been “called back” by Ping and Junko posting so much stuff online, rather than the Cave of Evil denizens who presumably summon a character with fewer specific story details)

Also, unless time moves differently within Endgames’ “persistent universe,” Pirogoeth’s baby can’t be more than a year and a half old. Hardly a character in their own right. I suspect the kid we saw in the background of that one panel might have been a Fred herring. https://megatokyo.com/strip/1345
Wow cool catch! That kid sort of has M0h's hair I think. It's only a 'herring' if explicitly denied by Fred I think. :)

( Nothing stops the characters from growing up much faster in virtual world than in real, it is not 'second life's after all, also most (MMO)RPG's with day/night setup have much faster cycle than 24 hours.) After all player characters tend to first appear in games already fully grown most of the time.

Technically, if Miho tried to log in using her old username she won't pass through. I do not think the young offspring would be bound to her account, which most likely has been deleted, much more likely that it's on Piro's as the 'only guardian's. Or adopted by the game world as an NPC.
So technically Miho would have to use a different account to log in and train up appropriately etc, but she actually did not do that...
She may have slightly different physical form (the hair) but her mind is similar enough apart from a few more dying episodes...
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by cidjen » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:51 pm

Roamer wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:14 pm

-He's encouraged her to use her skills in new and different ways. Given how strongly the clothing seems to make the character in MT, what can a Magical Girl dressed up as, say, a Ninja, capable of? Just how closely tied together are the clothes and the powers?
You should read some of Darrin's rescripts (edit : gah autocorrect is a monster), there is a hilarious story arc about that there :)

(Mod note sorry about the double post, but this one is a response to someone else)
Last edited by cidjen on Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by Invisigoth » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:03 pm

Roamer wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:14 pm
NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:15 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:09 pm
I'm pretty sure that Largo's alleged mentoring consist of nothing more than advise on some fashion accessories (wear sensible gear) and of course some very bad advise. After all he was clueless as to the capabilities of Magical Girls in comparison to a Rent'a'Zilla.

If anything Largo would fall under the category of side kick or familiar and be in a sort of competition with Yutaka. If Erika ever found out that he ruined dinner with Meimi and Masamichi so he could chase their 15 year old daughter across town he'd likely have a much longer stay in the hospital

Once again people fail to catch the joke.
Well, he did let her borrow his phone. You’re right though; that doesn’t count as mentoring. I wouldn’t even go so far as to call him a sidekick. More like a crazy older acquaintance who facilitates chaos rather than helps to resolve it. It’s not like he cares much about her (or anyone besides Piro and Erika) except as a useful resource or an interesting diversion.
It doesn't matter why he does it or his goals; the fact is, he has mentored her. He was able to figure out what she was within seconds of seeing her powered up. (TCPD should have him on retainer just for that ability.)
- Largo's two great talents are that he isn't locked into the conventions of what abilities and powers can do, and that he makes people believe in themselves just by believing in them ["I don't play games that aren't worth playing"]. He's given Yuki the first of these, and given what she did to Yukata by accident, the self confidence boost will be useful as well.
-To expand on the above, he created a stealth MG - allowing her to escape the common idea of what a MG is - and fundamentally changed the way people view Yuki, simply by having her dress in a less flashy manner. The way the crowd refused to acknowledge her simply because of how she was dressed seems to strongly correlate with what Miho said about changing costumes to escape a scene. Sure, there have been 'sneaky MGs before, but what Largo's done with Yuki is different. (Possibly just because the MG has to be shown how to do it; the old 'Cat Burglar' anime such as Cat's Eye featured costumes that hid the girl's identity but were still very high-profile). The Cat's Eye sisters, in costume or not, always dressed to kill, a pretty common trope with that style of show. Maybe just not being eye candy is enough.
-He's encouraged her to use her skills in new and different ways. Given how strongly the clothing seems to make the character in MT, what can a Magical Girl dressed up as, say, a Ninja, capable of? Just how closely tied together are the clothes and the powers?
That's clever and all but when Yuki was confronted in the hospital she wasn't even geared up. Just the regular clothes that she didn't sleep in the night before.

Largo doesn't know anything about MG's at all which is what makes his advice for gear so great....BTW I was the one who suggested that Largo would recommend fingerless shooting gloves, shooting eye protection and an equipment belt along with decent boots during that story arc

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by NinjaDefenestrator » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:35 am

@Roamer

Let’s convince Fred to dress Largo up in one of Erika’s Magical Moe-Bo outfits and find out. He did express interest in learning her creepy skill.

Seriously though, except as a tool of misdirection, clothes don’t have much to do with an average Megatokyo citizen’s abilities, or even a magical girl’s powers. Yuki could have zipped off and returned wearing a burger costume, but those fanboys would still be unconvinced that she was a real magical girl because the burger wasn’t cute and sparkly enough.

There have been hints that Miho is (or was) different in that regard. For example, https://megatokyo.com/strip/1089 and https://megatokyo.com/strip/1122 suggest that something as minor as pigtails reflects a change in Miho’s mysterious Cave of Evil persona.

When she respawns in a new body, her manner of speech is different than it was before (more expressive and relatable, like a normal person rather than whatever her character was supposed to be), and she mentions that what she wears has an effect on her behavior here: https://megatokyo.com/strip/1313

However, this is all conjecture and likely irrelevant, since the pigtails comics were drawn over a decade ago, the bunny ears comic happened in 2011, and the story has changed a lot since then.

Who knows, Largo cosplaying as Magical Moe-Bo might actually lead to his developing magical girl powers whenever he wears the outfit. There is something very wrong with me that I half hope this is addressed in the comic someday.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by Roamer » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:56 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:03 pm
Roamer wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:14 pm
NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:15 pm


Well, he did let her borrow his phone. You’re right though; that doesn’t count as mentoring. I wouldn’t even go so far as to call him a sidekick. More like a crazy older acquaintance who facilitates chaos rather than helps to resolve it. It’s not like he cares much about her (or anyone besides Piro and Erika) except as a useful resource or an interesting diversion.
It doesn't matter why he does it or his goals; the fact is, he has mentored her. He was able to figure out what she was within seconds of seeing her powered up. (TCPD should have him on retainer just for that ability.)
- Largo's two great talents are that he isn't locked into the conventions of what abilities and powers can do, and that he makes people believe in themselves just by believing in them ["I don't play games that aren't worth playing"]. He's given Yuki the first of these, and given what she did to Yukata by accident, the self confidence boost will be useful as well.
-To expand on the above, he created a stealth MG - allowing her to escape the common idea of what a MG is - and fundamentally changed the way people view Yuki, simply by having her dress in a less flashy manner. The way the crowd refused to acknowledge her simply because of how she was dressed seems to strongly correlate with what Miho said about changing costumes to escape a scene. Sure, there have been 'sneaky MGs before, but what Largo's done with Yuki is different. (Possibly just because the MG has to be shown how to do it; the old 'Cat Burglar' anime such as Cat's Eye featured costumes that hid the girl's identity but were still very high-profile). The Cat's Eye sisters, in costume or not, always dressed to kill, a pretty common trope with that style of show. Maybe just not being eye candy is enough.
-He's encouraged her to use her skills in new and different ways. Given how strongly the clothing seems to make the character in MT, what can a Magical Girl dressed up as, say, a Ninja, capable of? Just how closely tied together are the clothes and the powers?
That's clever and all but when Yuki was confronted in the hospital she wasn't even geared up. Just the regular clothes that she didn't sleep in the night before.

Largo doesn't know anything about MG's at all which is what makes his advice for gear so great....BTW I was the one who suggested that Largo would recommend fingerless shooting gloves, shooting eye protection and an equipment belt along with decent boots during that story arc
Not suggesting there's a one-to-one correlation or anything, but clothes seem to have more...impact that you would think, on people's perception. But if it were all clothes, then Cosplayers would rule here. I think intent also plays a big role. Just not sure about the details.

Lol, I remember you suggesting that, and nodding at the glasses and the belt, but saying "MG with a gun? Nope, nope, nope.."

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by Roamer » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:59 pm

NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:35 am
@Roamer

Let’s convince Fred to dress Largo up in one of Erika’s Magical Moe-Bo outfits and find out. He did express interest in learning her creepy skill.

Seriously though, except as a tool of misdirection, clothes don’t have much to do with an average Megatokyo citizen’s abilities, or even a magical girl’s powers. Yuki could have zipped off and returned wearing a burger costume, but those fanboys would still be unconvinced that she was a real magical girl because the burger wasn’t cute and sparkly enough.

There have been hints that Miho is (or was) different in that regard. For example, https://megatokyo.com/strip/1089 and https://megatokyo.com/strip/1122 suggest that something as minor as pigtails reflects a change in Miho’s mysterious Cave of Evil persona.

When she respawns in a new body, her manner of speech is different than it was before (more expressive and relatable, like a normal person rather than whatever her character was supposed to be), and she mentions that what she wears has an effect on her behavior here: https://megatokyo.com/strip/1313

However, this is all conjecture and likely irrelevant, since the pigtails comics were drawn over a decade ago, the bunny ears comic happened in 2011, and the story has changed a lot since then.

Who knows, Largo cosplaying as Magical Moe-Bo might actually lead to his developing magical girl powers whenever he wears the outfit. There is something very wrong with me that I half hope this is addressed in the comic someday.
I just told Invisigoth I don't think it's all about the clothes - intent or possibly belief seems critical, or cosplayers would rule MT...but I think this experiment must be done for the children! Or, you know, the lolz.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by darrin » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:13 pm

cidjen wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:10 am
i'd say it deprives the forum of at least the possibility to mention the mood of the next comic... If no one is allowed to mention even what they perceive as the mood of the next comic, because they have seen it, then the forum discussion with the likes of me really dies out.
I want to see Fred's completed comic, then do my own assessment of the mood (and other elements) of that comic, and then take into consideration other people's assessment of the comic, in that order. If discussion of 1513 is confined to a thread labelled 1513, I can trivially accomplish that (by just avoiding that thread until I see the posted comic) without bothering anyone else at all let alone "depriving the forum of the possibility" of discussing 1513 (since it's equally trivial on said folk's part to post to, or even start, a 1513 thread).

On the other hand, if 1513 discussion (however oblique in what it "mentions") is posted to the 1512 thread, there's no practical way to avoid it; by the time I'm consciously thinking "oh wait, this dude is actually talking about the next comic" the information has already been read and absorbed.
SpoilerShow
Yes, there's the spoiler tag, but people already mostly just use that for their own rampant speculation (as opposed to stuff they've actually gotten from Fred one way or another prior to it being generally avialable). I tend to use it for the dumbest of my dumb jokes so I am certainly not claiming innocence here, just saying that compartmentalizing discussion by labelled threads is a lot cleaner, easier, and more reliable.
EDIT:
paarfi wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:05 am
I suppose if people posted in the current thread but used the spoiler tags and warned that the upcoming comic was being spoilered, that might be ok. What do y'all think?
My larger objection to relying on spoiler tags for this would be that it's a lot less likely to be observed and, I would guess, more difficult to enforce. People who come here wanting to say something about 1513 are gonna go ahead and do that; they might not think what they're saying is "all that spoilery" (e.g. above, "but it's just the perceived mood! I'm not spoiling what's in the comic!"); they might at some level think it might be spoilery, but forget or neglect (or not be aware of?) the spoiler tag; or they might just not give a rat's ass. Even if it's egregious enough for a mod to mention, the most likely response (even assuming a positive one) is "meh, ok, I'll try to remember that next time". (And then they don't. :|)

On the other hand, "put your post in the relevant thread" is a much more basic principle of discussion forums in general, less prone to subjective quibbling ("this is about 1513, it should have been posted in the 1513 thread", "but I wasn't spoiling anything, I am just sharing my assessment of the mood!", "I didn't say you were, but this is about 1513, it goes in the 1513 thread which is right here"), and, for the most egregious violations, easier to correct (mod moves the post to the right thread).
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by cidjen » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:11 pm

darrin wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:13 pm
[...]
My larger objection to relying on spoiler tags for this would be that it's a lot less likely to be observed and, I would guess, more difficult to enforce. People who come here wanting to say something about 1513 are gonna go ahead and do that; they might not think what they're saying is "all that spoilery" (e.g. above, "but it's just the perceived mood! I'm not spoiling what's in the comic!"); they might at some level think it might be spoilery, but forget or neglect (or not be aware of?) the spoiler tag; or they might just not give a rat's ass. Even if it's egregious enough for a mod to mention, the most likely response (even assuming a positive one) is "meh, ok, I'll try to remember that next time". (And then they don't. :|)

On the other hand, "put your post in the relevant thread" is a much more basic principle of discussion forums in general, less prone to subjective quibbling ("this is about 1513, it should have been posted in the 1513 thread", "but I wasn't spoiling anything, I am just sharing my assessment of the mood!", "I didn't say you were, but this is about 1513, it goes in the 1513 thread which is right here"), and, for the most egregious violations, easier to correct (mod moves the post to the right thread).
Yeah, this is also why spoiler tags removed by mods or spoiler marked threads ain't gonna work (unless there is a 'one finger solution' or 'timed' or 'triggered' spoiler removal tools for this) for simply the mods would object for too much handiwork required...

I agree with the 'back to basics' solution... aka, create next comic's thread as soon as it's beginning to start to shape up on twitch, and it would be up to people's own decisions then, whether they want to spoil the fun for themselves, or not.
( Maybe emphasize a bit harder that cross-posting from n+1/twitch back to n thread is not appreciated by most people ? )
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by iffy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:47 pm

cidjen wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:45 pm
Wow cool catch! That kid sort of has M0h's hair I think. It's only a 'herring' if explicitly denied by Fred I think. :)
It wouldn't seem that much of anything out of story comic that's written or said (confirmed or denied) necessarily means it counts as anything, until if and when it is in story comic. But whatever a fredherring is, it appears more so something (usually) out of story comic, and that shoves perceptions somewhere, which may then return to impact how story is perceived. Things from in chat or posts or interviews or streams. Even if it later turns out they are the correct perceptions, there's some cognitive dissonance created in some people in some ways during the time they're not answered anywhere. It's not really something like having Miho hand Kimiko a pass to the CoE or Meimi looking at a striped bowl or Piro looking at origami money, or even Erika not understanding who Masamichi is talking about. Maybe maybe it's a DPD (which isn't "official" truth) showing up later in story comic on a wall. It's probably more like an offhand comment we'll hate somebody or another sometime, in this thing that we don't know how long it will last and doesn't have a full plot all the way to the ending anyway. Something like that I suppose.

Such as m0h is Miho's chat handle, but the character in Endgames isn't really named by name ever. Which could be a fredherring, as could the not giving the subject's name in 1271. But given the other character names in Endgames, that character's name probably isn't a chat handle. Of course, there's disagreement if he should be called Moh or not. But it seems somewhat Endgamesish, which flows into the discussion of what somebody is wearing, sort of. The way we might think about it is if the characters have a name it matches the venue, and when the names are different, it's easier to write as well as think about as fitting into some narrative or another. We don't then get the issue of clarifying Largo (the guy in Tokyo who beat Junpei to get into the country) isn't Largo the Legionnaire in Endgames or the one that plays Capture the Bear or ShottySnipers. Pirogoeth isn't Piroko but they both tell you who it is pretty easily. In a way also Yuki, wait do you mean the one who commented all over Piro's artwork, or the Magical Girl that isn't flashy enough for the likes of those tough guys? The whole clothes thing, is sort of like you can't be a superhero you don't have tights and a cape.

Maybe another way to put it about fredherrings is that story comics are already both so undefined and all encompassing in so many ways that they can be taken so many different ways by different people. At least until something gets somewhat clarified, and even then there's disagreement. As in 1512 we finally get the expressed notion Piro is more specifically wrapped up in his head about what happened before rather than just remaining steadfastly overly practical. He seems to be telling his conscience it's wrong, but not maybe why exactly. Or how content or over he is about having to choose... Or even if he has chosen. Piro can't get into the entire 'hey we're moving through a gap!' but knows they are doing so, and yet instead asks why the gaps are needed by her rather than thinking it cool, or being amazed. He even later quickly seems to forget they have just moved through nothing and everything, to show up at the school, he just switches his thinking to how to work out the planned plot and characterizations as he understands them. He ignores the existence of a horde even as it pulls down the building somehow. Yet it still isn't clear exactly if he is obstinately refusing to cooperate or if it just feels wrong to decide. If it's because he wants to keep Miho or to appropriately jettison Miho. Or if it's literal or figurative. While a number of observers are variously convinced it is certainly one, or the other, or something else. That thing A must be true, even if he hasn't really even decided. Or that it's B. Or C, no wait X. What, X wasn't on the list!

The child in Endgames, that's another thing as well. To return to that, as far as the specifics of when one character who participated is telling their version of what happened to another who wasn't there at all or not when it happened, we have the speaker's perceptions, in an environment where we aren't sure how much they admit or don't to even themselves, versus what they want to and don't want to pass along to the other. They filter it to themselves, and potentially then further filter it to others. We can't always be sure if the artwork going along with the explanation is what the teller is thinking, the listener is thinking, some of both, or just the raw 'what happened' from some certain angle and timing. So what and who is the child that seems it might be older than it should, that has no name and where it isn't clear if it's a girl or a boy. Komugiko is talking about something else as the subject anyway, the sex and age of the child might not even be of import, just that there is one. Whoever is seeing that drawn situation in the art in their mind's eye, or if it's just some relating of the time-sliced actuality to us. Which is to say, we probably don't know enough to even guess what if anything the child means, which appears to make it difficult to consider it as some redirection of perception.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by darrin » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:48 pm

iffy wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:47 pm
Such as m0h is Miho's chat handle, but the character in Endgames isn't really named by name ever.
Last panel of 1210, Pirogoeth says "M0h?" (It's hard to tell from the all-caps font in the comic itself, but the transcript confirms it's spelled with a zero.)

Also the transcripts for the strips in which m0h appears, assuming those count. (My opinion is that they should; I assume they're to some extent Fred-vetted, but I can see someone holding the opposite opinion, that it should only count if said "out loud" in-comic.)

Oddly enough the transcript for 1210 in particular uses a capital M, not just for Pirogoeth's utterance but to refer to the character throughout; whereas the name is usually spelled "m0h" (with a lowercase m) in other transcript entries... I doubt this is actually significant but could very well be wrong...

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by darrin » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:13 pm

cidjen wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:11 pm
( Maybe emphasize a bit harder that cross-posting from n+1/twitch back to n thread is not appreciated by most people ? )
Sorry for the double post, and sorry for harping on this (mostly dying I guess) issue.

I have to ask though, why does "most people" have to be the threshold here? What possible positive outcome could posting 1513-relevant material in the 1512 thread (again, in the period before 1513 has shown up on megatokyo.com itself) ever have, to weigh against the negative outcome of spoiler material potentially reaching folks who would have otherwise chosen to avoid it?

It's not like starting a new comic thread is at all technically difficult or requires any special privileges; of all the comic discussion threads on the first page of Story Discussions, ten were started by paarfi, one by a non-paarfi mod, and five by regular posters who aren't mods. (Page 2 is all paarfi of course :lol: but that was still early days for the new forums in some sense.) Far from getting mod-dinged, the ones in the latter category typically got thanked by paarfi for doing so.

I can totally understand being excited about something seen on twitch for 15xx (I admit I rarely go to twitch, but when I do, I never regret it), what I don't see is any need to go back to the 15xx-1 thread and talk about it there; if the 15xx thread doesn't exist yet, there doesn't appear to be any obstacle to starting it and posting one's twitch observation there.
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