[1561] Little girl stuff
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
I have a theory on how moeko could live outside her fantasy. Pings body. a transfer of her entire personality into ping.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
Never let people saying you are wrong stop you! Unless... they are like, telling you it is wrong to jump out of a plane without a parachute... then maybe listen to them, and get a parachute before you jump. Ummmm... RAMBLE ON... SING MY SONG... FIND A WAY
(Drops a ninja smoke bomb.)
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
I notice in the last panel that the star at the tip of her magical wand is half its normal size.
Moeko thinking about what she could have been makes me scared.
Moeko thinking about what she could have been makes me scared.
Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
Congrats, Teddy, that was simultaneously quite profound and depressing as hell.Teddy-Werebear wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:21 amMoeko clearly has fangs... in every shot. Clearly having a nervous breakdown, also. Has it been a slow rolling nervous breakdown for years? A decade or more? Some things you cannot fix. Some things you cannot replace. Some things you cannot throw out. Some things you cannot escape.
But they sound like children's tales because they were primarily intended as children's cautionary tales. The core message of Hansel and Gretel makes perfect sense: Don't wander off in the forest or you'll get eaten. Once they were changed to soften the core message - a lot of Grimm's tales are pretty bleak - children's stories are all they are.darrin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:45 amOr in defense of literature that others considered "children's" that arguably wasn't; go back a few hundred years and "fairy tales" were a (non-child-specific) genre, as legitimate then as say detective or romance genres in modern times. He (and his friend Tolkien) put a lot of effort into trying to make ("modern") people aware of this.
Given how starved for attention she seems to be, I believe it's something she can only do with those she's linked to in Paarfi's chain: her Analogue and her Character. Pretty sure if Ririka could talk to Moeko she would have at least mentioned the possibility to Erika.darrin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:43 pmWhich makes me wonder, did Moeko manifest herself to her mother the way she is doing so to Erika right now? "Don't worry mom, I'm actually ok, and the videos are helping, keep 'em coming"?
Or were they able to communicate during any non-comatose moments (if there were any)?
Or was mom just playing the videos out of hope? (Along the lines of it being recommended to keep talking to a comatose patient even if you don't see any signs they hear you) (Maybe Moeko can only manifest herself to fellow MGs, plus closely associated individuals like idols... or maybe it was too emotionally painful to talk directly to her mother...)
The questions of who knew what and when have been multiplying more and more rapidly as time goes on...
Truly, the mind doth boggle at that. Did they not recognize you? Or were they claiming they were channeling the spirit of the character in question?
Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
Zapp: Kiff, did you pack your parachute?Teddy-Werebear wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:22 pmNever let people saying you are wrong stop you! Unless... they are like, telling you it is wrong to jump out of a plane without a parachute...
Kiff: <nods, his expression suddenly becoming suspicious>
Zapp: Good, because I forgot mine. <grabs 'chute>
Yeah, the more I look at the last panel the more it looks like a vast and critical divergence point in the plot.SpaceCobraJoe wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:59 amMoeko thinking about what she could have been makes me scared.
Is she suddenly gripped with sadness, and about to drop the wand?
Or is everything that's been done to her (by Stability or life itself) about to finally have her lose what remains of her shit, and the twiddly deal she is doing with her ring finger is her twirling the wand Voldemort-style, about to make things very unpleasant for a very large number of people?
A subset of them were children's stories, just like a subset of all literature is children's literature. Grimm focused on those because they considered themselves to be making a contribution to children's literature specifically; Lewis and Tolkien by contrast were dismayed by the fact that by their time, this contribution was considered the only form of the genre, so that "adult fairy stories" had become not just an oxymoron but a long-forgotten blind spot. In the twitch channel last night while discussing paarfi's point I said that it was as if a hundred years from now people lumped Agatha Christie, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and Encyclopedia Brown all in the same bucket, and dismissed them all as "just for children". ("The core message of A Study in Scarlet makes perfect sense: physical law proceeds from cause to effect, and given close observation of known consequences, one can apply logic to deduce the most likely ultimate causes of those consequences. Once they were changed to soften the amount of deductive reasoning involved -- a lot of Christie's stories rely on rather excessive leaps of logic -- children's stories are all they are.")Roamer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 amBut they sound like children's tales because they were primarily intended as children's cautionary tales. The core message of Hansel and Gretel makes perfect sense: Don't wander off in the forest or you'll get eaten. Once they were changed to soften the core message - a lot of Grimm's tales are pretty bleak - children's stories are all they are.
It's a very safe bet that after telling the kids their cautionary tales, and then sending them off to bed, the adults would remain sitting around the campfire telling the other stories that the children would get to hear when they were old enough. Beowulf wasn't intended as a children's story. Gilgamesh wasn't intended as a children's story.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
So, in a way, it's not just because of Miho's way-back past, but also because of Moeko's situation, that causes Miho to faint and go into a momentary coma before she revives.
The Rapierman: Intelligence with a sword and a smile.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
This is a touch off the main thread, but the impression I got was that she wandered off into the remains of Rivendell and just shut down. Which always struck me as a bit off, because their son was still alive, so why didn't he check on his mother to make sure we wasn't wasting away, when it hit me, he probably did, at least until he died, and one or more of her grand kids took over making sure grandmother was staying connected to life, then one of the great grandchildren, then the great-great-grandchildren, then the third great grandchildren, fourth, fifth, and so on and so forth until either the generations ran out or no-one remembered to keep tabs on her.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
Hmm it was long since I read LOTR (and I had a copy from a library too) but wikipedia disagreesVoyager wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:27 amThis is a touch off the main thread, but the impression I got was that she wandered off into the remains of Rivendell and just shut down. Which always struck me as a bit off, because their son was still alive, so why didn't he check on his mother to make sure we wasn't wasting away, when it hit me, he probably did, at least until he died, and one or more of her grand kids took over making sure grandmother was staying connected to life, then one of the great grandchildren, then the great-great-grandchildren, then the third great grandchildren, fourth, fifth, and so on and so forth until either the generations ran out or no-one remembered to keep tabs on her.
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Blessed be those, who, having nothing to say, avoid trying to tell this to the world in their own words - J. Tuwim ( liberally translated )
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Translation to polish
and where it happens when I have time to stream
Blessed be those, who, having nothing to say, avoid trying to tell this to the world in their own words - J. Tuwim ( liberally translated )
Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
This answers my question.
I just asked it because in the old forums, fred himself used to start these threads.
I do still clearly remember that from the old forums.
And figuring out is indeed a fun activity with the help of others in these threads.
Orriens.
(Thanks for the personal answer.)
Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
I'm not 100% sure I understand what you mean by "just shut down" here, but if it means anything other than death, I believe the text disagrees.
(From Appendix A, shortly after the bits I stole for that rescript; Aragorn is the first speaker, followed by Arwen. The whole passage is in single quotes in the original, which I have omitted, since it is intended as a quote from "a part of the tale of Aragorn and Arwen".)
The "Doom of Men" is how the Elves in the Silmarillion refer to death, i.e. the mortality of humans as opposed to their own elvish immortality. Note that they also refer to it as the Gift of Men (in contrast with the "world-weariness" the Elves face after being bound "too long" to the "circles of the world". Which, to at least attempt to bring this back to slightly less ridiculously off-topic, could serve to explain at least a little of Miho's occasional moodiness, if she's dealing with anything remotely similar."[...] The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens [...]; or else to abide by the Doom of Men."
"Nay, dear Lord," she said, "that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence. [...]"
[...] and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. [...] There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed [...]
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
There is not only the connection of the "dying girl" story between Miho and Moeko. There is also the fact that Miho tried to take Erica's fans when she quit (bringing on disaster). Miho channeled Moeko, gave her life, but if Moeko was also channeling Miho's story (in a way) then there would logically be a huge feedback, and disaster.
What Moeko is more concerned about though is her inability to live life. For that reason she is angry at Miho for almost giving up what life she had, and wishes that Erica would carry on her story so that she could at least live vicariously through that story. She is in a very sad place in life... being just awake enough to know what she's missing, but not enough to actually live. (And no, overwriting Ping's personality to put Moeko in her body is NOT a solution.)
What Moeko is more concerned about though is her inability to live life. For that reason she is angry at Miho for almost giving up what life she had, and wishes that Erica would carry on her story so that she could at least live vicariously through that story. She is in a very sad place in life... being just awake enough to know what she's missing, but not enough to actually live. (And no, overwriting Ping's personality to put Moeko in her body is NOT a solution.)
Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
Oh, and the reason i used to start the threads on the forums is it used to be this huge free for all with lots of people trying to be the first one to start the discussion thread, so i started doing the discussion thread to keep the chaos down. things are calmer these days, and Paarfi usualy takes care of it
fredrin
Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
Fred - I forgot to mention this before but your art continues to grow and change and mature. That last panel is one of the most expressive, heart wrenching, and depressing (in a good way) things I think you've ever done. Bravo.
(Prior winner in the depressing-in-a-good-way award is the one print we have with Megumi, where she's been stood up at the bar. Any chance we can get something more upbeat?)
And I expected the cackling. After all, it's what I do when I get a good rise out of the readers.
(Prior winner in the depressing-in-a-good-way award is the one print we have with Megumi, where she's been stood up at the bar. Any chance we can get something more upbeat?)
I rather like that thought about compressing a type of stories together like that. Amusing (and mildly appalling, which is of course your point.) But I don't think it's really accurate to try and pigeonhole most stories from the era of oral history, simply because a storyteller could and probably did alter the story to fit his audience. The Roman pantheon is just the Greek gods with a quickie repainting. A bard telling the tales of the Greek gods to an audience could spice things up for a mature audience or focus just on the action for the kids. There's no reason why they couldn't do the same for most stories, although there are exceptions - The Epic of Gilgamesh, as you pointed out, or Xenophon's Anabasis. Writing stories down had much to do with creating permanent categories for them to fall into.darrin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:36 amA subset of them were children's stories, just like a subset of all literature is children's literature. Grimm focused on those because they considered themselves to be making a contribution to children's literature specifically; Lewis and Tolkien by contrast were dismayed by the fact that by their time, this contribution was considered the only form of the genre, so that "adult fairy stories" had become not just an oxymoron but a long-forgotten blind spot. In the twitch channel last night while discussing paarfi's point I said that it was as if a hundred years from now people lumped Agatha Christie, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and Encyclopedia Brown all in the same bucket, and dismissed them all as "just for children". ("The core message of A Study in Scarlet makes perfect sense: physical law proceeds from cause to effect, and given close observation of known consequences, one can apply logic to deduce the most likely ultimate causes of those consequences. Once they were changed to soften the amount of deductive reasoning involved -- a lot of Christie's stories rely on rather excessive leaps of logic -- children's stories are all they are.")Roamer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 amBut they sound like children's tales because they were primarily intended as children's cautionary tales. The core message of Hansel and Gretel makes perfect sense: Don't wander off in the forest or you'll get eaten. Once they were changed to soften the core message - a lot of Grimm's tales are pretty bleak - children's stories are all they are.
It's a very safe bet that after telling the kids their cautionary tales, and then sending them off to bed, the adults would remain sitting around the campfire telling the other stories that the children would get to hear when they were old enough. Beowulf wasn't intended as a children's story. Gilgamesh wasn't intended as a children's story.
Nonsense. Depression as an emotion felt by the reader isn't something for the writer to feel guilty about unless it was done deliberately AND it would be unusual for the reader to feel in that context. I don't think you qualify in this case.Teddy-Werebear wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:42 pmI will not lie. That comment made me cackle like Mark Hamill's Joker, and then I felt bad about reacting that way.
And I expected the cackling. After all, it's what I do when I get a good rise out of the readers.
It might also help to explain her willingness to waltz onto a known killing field and get blown to bits by a dozen Killballs.darrin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:45 am
The "Doom of Men" is how the Elves in the Silmarillion refer to death, i.e. the mortality of humans as opposed to their own elvish immortality. Note that they also refer to it as the Gift of Men (in contrast with the "world-weariness" the Elves face after being bound "too long" to the "circles of the world". Which, to at least attempt to bring this back to slightly less ridiculously off-topic, could serve to explain at least a little of Miho's occasional moodiness, if she's dealing with anything remotely similar.
Last edited by Roamer on Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
That reminds me.
We know that she wasn't planning to be discovered by Yuki after that (and Yuki was looking for her why...?) hence she was very visibly surprised by that.
I just wonder what was she possibly planning instead of getting singled out of the ASF ? Could it have been related to what she was trying to do to Piro later (imply him as a creepy gaijin to lure her out of the country....?)
Слава Україні!
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Translation to polish
and where it happens when I have time to stream
Blessed be those, who, having nothing to say, avoid trying to tell this to the world in their own words - J. Tuwim ( liberally translated )
🥫
--------
Translation to polish
and where it happens when I have time to stream
Blessed be those, who, having nothing to say, avoid trying to tell this to the world in their own words - J. Tuwim ( liberally translated )
Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
Yuki was convinced that it was Wuv Twue Wuv between Piro and Miho and decided to force the issue. Considering how oddly she behaves at a few points here I have to wonder if the MT metaplot was pushing her to force Miho into the open.cidjen wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:06 amThat reminds me.
We know that she wasn't planning to be discovered by Yuki after that (and Yuki was looking for her why...?) hence she was very visibly surprised by that.
I just wonder what was she possibly planning instead of getting singled out of the ASF ? Could it have been related to what she was trying to do to Piro later (imply him as a creepy gaijin to lure her out of the country....?)
And Miho was in a very strange headspace. She had just shared her favorite story from Erika's show, one pretty revealing about some aspects of Miho's character. Opening up the way she did was...disorienting, really...to see. And she herself questioned it almost immediately, just before she walked onto that killing field. So it's pretty hard to say how much or how clearly she was thinking ahead.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
Haha right my question should have been marked rhetorical but nice one thanks.
Somehow I am getting vibes that that passage (and the girl-rescued-by-pirates-who-then-died-after-they-were-killed story) is something we might get even more clues from...
Слава Україні!
🥫
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Translation to polish
and where it happens when I have time to stream
Blessed be those, who, having nothing to say, avoid trying to tell this to the world in their own words - J. Tuwim ( liberally translated )
🥫
--------
Translation to polish
and where it happens when I have time to stream
Blessed be those, who, having nothing to say, avoid trying to tell this to the world in their own words - J. Tuwim ( liberally translated )
Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
THANK you. It never ceases to disturb me how many -- both in and out of comic -- consider Ping in some sense "disposable".Mamma Peach wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:27 pm(And no, overwriting Ping's personality to put Moeko in her body is NOT a solution.)
Well, I think a large part of what Lewis and Tolkien were trying to demonstrate was that the "pigeonholing" in this case -- "if a 'fairy' story (large emphasis on supernatural or fantastic elements) => therefore exclusively a children's story" -- was entirely a modern, and historically inaccurate, pigeonholing. There's a large gap after all between "editing" existing ("adult", or more broadly "human") stories to be more suitable for children, and having developed the idea that a particular genre is suitable only for children.Roamer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 amI rather like that thought about compressing a type of stories together like that. Amusing (and mildly appalling, which is of course your point.) But I don't think it's really accurate to try and pigeonhole most stories from the era of oral history, simply because a storyteller could and probably did alter the story to fit his audience.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
I may be off base on this, but somehow in the last panel I see Moeko as having resolved her lingering regret. In the way that a ghost has to resolve it's lingering regret. It would not surprise me to see Moeko pass on in the next comic.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
I ran across a clarification of "childlike" vs "childish" many moons ago I thought hit the mark. Found this on the 'net after a quick search:paarfi wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:08 pmI have always greatly admired CS Lewis's defense of fairy tales and children's literature. I think, had he lived long enough to know of them, he'd have felt the same about magical girls. You don't have to give up little girl stuff when you become a big girl, Moeko. Never stop dreaming.
My defence consists of three propositions.
1. I reply with a tu quoque. Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But the on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development: When I was ten I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.
Link via BoingBoing
Childish has negative connotations and is often used to refer to silly or immature behavior. childlike - having the good qualities, such as innocence, associated with a child. Childlike is closer to words like innocent, trusting, unfeigned, and pure, which are not negative.
Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
Almost certainly. Or prophetic for the future. Or maybe both, Fred is tricksy like that.
In some very important ways, I suspect she's the least disposable character in the series.darrin wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:38 amTHANK you. It never ceases to disturb me how many -- both in and out of comic -- consider Ping in some sense "disposable".Mamma Peach wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:27 pm(And no, overwriting Ping's personality to put Moeko in her body is NOT a solution.)
There's a gap, certainly, but it's also a natural progression, or if you prefer, a slippery slope from the first to the second. What Moeko talks about in the first couple of panels - essentially, the need to put away childish things - almost forces the idea. "If it's suitable for children, then it's not suitable for adults" is a very silly idea that has been found in many cultures.darrin wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:38 amWell, I think a large part of what Lewis and Tolkien were trying to demonstrate was that the "pigeonholing" in this case -- "if a 'fairy' story (large emphasis on supernatural or fantastic elements) => therefore exclusively a children's story" -- was entirely a modern, and historically inaccurate, pigeonholing. There's a large gap after all between "editing" existing ("adult", or more broadly "human") stories to be more suitable for children, and having developed the idea that a particular genre is suitable only for children.Roamer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 amI rather like that thought about compressing a type of stories together like that. Amusing (and mildly appalling, which is of course your point.) But I don't think it's really accurate to try and pigeonhole most stories from the era of oral history, simply because a storyteller could and probably did alter the story to fit his audience.
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Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
On the other hand, there are examples of adult fiction that definitively isn't suitable for people under the legal drinking age... and not just because of the 53% content. It's a divide that existed for a very long time (I remember reading on a memoir of someone from a long long time, who were chased out of the adult sections of a library because they were kids; not just that but were threatened that their parents will be told); Whereas growing up and maturing is a continuous process, and however they would, they will come in contact with the stuff eventually - but the 'adults' believe it would be harmful to the children to get into that stuff too early. And it's hard to argue with that... You know, 53%, I can handle explaining 53% to my own kids. I also know some parents that can't. But understanding a story with moral-low-grounds, choosing the least of many evils that come from ones action, the (not-)ungrounded 'apparent racism' or physical and mental abuse, is not really kids stuff...
Слава Україні!
🥫
--------
Translation to polish
and where it happens when I have time to stream
Blessed be those, who, having nothing to say, avoid trying to tell this to the world in their own words - J. Tuwim ( liberally translated )
🥫
--------
Translation to polish
and where it happens when I have time to stream
Blessed be those, who, having nothing to say, avoid trying to tell this to the world in their own words - J. Tuwim ( liberally translated )
Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
I didnt say OVER write Pings personality SPecifically. I mean they switch places is what i was shooting for.Mamma Peach wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:27 pmThere is not only the connection of the "dying girl" story between Miho and Moeko. There is also the fact that Miho tried to take Erica's fans when she quit (bringing on disaster). Miho channeled Moeko, gave her life, but if Moeko was also channeling Miho's story (in a way) then there would logically be a huge feedback, and disaster.
What Moeko is more concerned about though is her inability to live life. For that reason she is angry at Miho for almost giving up what life she had, and wishes that Erica would carry on her story so that she could at least live vicariously through that story. She is in a very sad place in life... being just awake enough to know what she's missing, but not enough to actually live. (And no, overwriting Ping's personality to put Moeko in her body is NOT a solution.)
I WAS the Owner of Wolfboys 800th post but SOMEBODY had to go and get a new Forum lol!
Re: [1561] Little girl stuff
How is that different? Ping being stuck in a comatose girl's body benefits Ping... how exactly?Zandra wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:01 pmI didnt say OVER write Pings personality SPecifically. I mean they switch places is what i was shooting for.Mamma Peach wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:27 pm(And no, overwriting Ping's personality to put Moeko in her body is NOT a solution.)
If someone suggested sticking Yuki's personality in Moeko's body while Moeko gets to run off with Yuki's body, everyone would be saying gosh, that's HORRIBLE, Yuki is a girl, you know, a REAL girl, she has rights and all that.
But hey, do it to the robot, no biggie. "We can always make more sexbots" as Bender would say.
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