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[1554] the parts needed

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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by cidjen » Thu May 09, 2019 6:59 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 5:26 am
Honestly, how can anyone possibly believe that Fred has written a scene where handing Junko a Snickers bar can resolve the tension?
You're right, but it looks like it might help Ping... all those transformations and drama, must be seriously draining her batteries...

"You're not _yourself_ when you're hungry" lol ? :)

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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by darrin » Thu May 09, 2019 11:36 am

Wow, you guys are shitting on Ping now too?

I am pretty done here with repeating myself about how dismissive and denigrating this line is to the characters, so this will be my last post this thread. But as bad as that was in Junko's direction, for Ping it is pretty much crossing into puppy-kicking territory.

For Junko the argument could be made that she's human; whatever has gone on so far between her and the Old Man, whatever feelings she may have allowed to develop, she should at least in principle have been able to see it coming, to at least consider the logical possibility that her assessment of him was not completely correct. (I wouldn't make that argument myself, not yet knowing what actually did go on between them; but it's at least something a human brain more or less like Junko's could or should have been capable of, it's not a physical impossibility.)

Ping has no such luxury. Everything she knows about the world, everything she understands about people and how to act around those people, is composed entirely of what the Old Man chose to shove into her skull, and with the comparatively small addition of what she has managed to learn herself from those people around her who alternatively ignore her or patronize her. Her emotional responses to the situations she finds herself in are also completely constrained by what the Old Man decided would be appropriate responses. Your user's upset? Well you darn well ought to be crying as well while you're comforting them. Your user's happy? Well then, you will certainly have a nice cheerful smile on your face as well.

When there are no "users" around, perhaps Sony cares little enough about those responses to allow whatever exists of her "own" personality to make its way out to the surface. But there are always other "users" around.

No, she's not "herself", ha ha ha. Not now, or ever. Because she's not God-damned allowed to be.
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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by cidjen » Thu May 09, 2019 12:02 pm

darrin wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:36 am
Wow, you guys are shitting on Ping now too?
[...]

No, she's not "herself", ha ha ha. Not now, or ever. Because she's not God-damned allowed to be.
Ok that was heavy coming from me, sorry :) but on the other hand, Fred has referred to Ping once as one of the Bosses. Like, that every interactive non player character heroine girl in this game is sort of a boss. Ping included. Game Bosses are there to be defeated - but to win may mean different things for different players. Looks like Junko's battle is a success here, Ping's been subjugated for a second time. Junko seems to not have been sold on making any choices with Ping, never mind the right ones, but still, Ping would do anything for her.

On Ping's disappointment on having not found the parts she wanted...
There could be a possibility too, that Ping can't find the 'missing' parts, because the DLC download area is not up or not up yet? switched away from development/experimental branch? Like, you can't put 'untested' parts for the public to enjoy, it's 'programming 101' right? Think of the chaos...

Or the lab/The Doctor might have thought she would not need them at this point in time, so they are _simply_ not there.
Makes me wonder how much of what Granny S. told her, will end up pulled from Ping to the general-access (even paywalled) area.

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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by Invisigoth » Thu May 09, 2019 6:15 pm

Unfortunately character abuse has had a very long history in MT with some of the blame falling on the artist himself with him for the longest time actually forcing Piro into a bad spot. The majority of my original schtick of hating Largo was an attempt to illustrate the absurdity of behaving like that but it went sailing right over the heads of most people and as the saying goes, the rest is history.

MT is interesting in that given that the concept is all based on different PoV readers seem to feel that the PoV of a favored character is indeed the true path through a funhouse full of mirrors.

So what's that got to do with the current thread? Well people who have historically disparaged particular characters are all seeming to double down as the story winds its way to a conclusion. The fact is that there are no unimportant characters. Megumi has been a long running character with a known ...umm...ninja fetish.... Miho was ALWAYS way deeper than her haters liked and the first nasty outbreaks showed up when she stood on top of a telephone pole contemplating Largo and Piro so long ago.

Largo and Piro really have never been the protagonists or stars or whatever. They came to MegaTokyo and took us all into an adventure we never knew could exist.

So no...Junko isn't hangry, Ping isn't a TOASTER Mugi is a single mother who's made some really bad life choices in the past and who is deeply concerned for her own daughter who incidentally she would NEVER boot out on the street if she did exactly what Mugi did at her age.

However, Dr Gero really is Dr Gero...

Enough of my rambling, y'all have fun but please try not to project.

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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by Selvius » Thu May 09, 2019 8:59 pm

In a strange way, both these past few comics and the forum discussion remind me of the Circuity omake and its exploratory artwork. Ping’s “wings” in particular.

We are all of us broken in one way or another. Confronting that is painful and scary. It’s easy to hide behind a wall of humor, rage, or disdain without even realizing it. It’s also easy to fixate on it so much that it’s overwhelming to yourself and others. Especially when you’re young. Finding a balance between the two so that you can move forward isn’t something you can really do by yourself.

Ping just shared her existential crisis with a room full of people who have been recently forced to think about their own fears and hang ups.

Megumi and her curse of loneliness, and ordinariness surrounded by the extraordinary. (Plus JUST being reminded of Junpei).
Junko and her world of people who devalue her, not to mention the hazards of her line of work.
Ashe and her ‘other’ness: deafness and being a kitsune “monster” in a human world, yet nothing more than a single-tail.

Poor Grandma’s just trying to do damage control.

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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by mostlyharmless » Thu May 09, 2019 9:29 pm

DrunkenSailor wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 7:39 am
Pings hair looks like it's changing color, getting lighter, in real time, right in front of the fox girls. So the whole they don't notice she's a robot, or wouldn't believe it if they were told stuff may be over. It's cute in the comic. It would be dumbfounding in person.

As for missing parts.

After grandma had described sex to her in detail enough to embarrass Megumi severely in comic 1553, Ping says, in comic 1554, that she doesn't know if she could do any of that. "Not without.. love." She didn't mention a valid credit card number and time to wait for the right parts to come mail order from SONY. Or to deal with convincing a fatally embarrassed Piro to help her install them.

DS
Comic #1523 talks about DLC (downloadable content), so - looks likr the problem is software. However, she has access to the inet with all its porn, so she doesn't really need to go to a love hotel to get the mechanics explained. Largo is obviously not going to be much help; he has his own problems. Piro might be able to give her some simplistic advice, it's how most humans learn about love 1.0.

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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Fri May 10, 2019 1:13 am

darrin wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:45 am
I can't imagine that being the case; "stay on your side of the street, ho" is nowhere near the dynamic that's been established so far between them. Upset at Ping for risking her own safety in a misguided attempt to protect Junko, sure.
As much as I like Junko, I cannot pawn her anger at Ping being purely about Ping offering herself up to protect Junko. That is part of it, but there is more going on I think you would agree. Junko's growling little tummy set aside.
The word "hysterical" by its very nature, and certainly given its origins, is intrinsically dismissive; it is essentially equivalent to calling someone "inappropriately emotional."
Hysterical is appropriate. Junko physically assaulted Ashe for trying to get her attention. It was not a mere shove or shaking the hand from her shoulder. A stranger does that to me... they call down the thunder. Or in Ashe's case, a righteous suplex.

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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by darrin » Fri May 10, 2019 11:57 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:13 am
As much as I like Junko, I cannot pawn her anger at Ping being purely about Ping offering herself up to protect Junko. That is part of it, but there is more going on I think you would agree.
I don't agree, no. In the last panel Junko is hugging Ping. The clear implication is that she was angry on Ping's behalf. If she were angry at Ping, especially for muscling in on Junko's "job" or whatever you were implying, that wouldn't have happened.
Junko's growling little tummy set aside.
Her "tummy" was never "growling", that is fabricated bullshit. You don't need to "set aside" what never existed in the first place.
Hysterical is appropriate. Junko physically assaulted Ashe for trying to get her attention.
In 1551 Junko perceived an attempt at being physically restrained without any prior attempt at a verbal warning. Not knowing Ashe is incapable of giving such a verbal warning, Junko reacted immediately and instinctively. She's nowhere near as skilled as Junko obviously but she does display either some level of training on her part or extremely honed instincts, as well as a very strong vibe that this isn't the first time she's had to use similar moves. Given the amount of speculation that's accumulated over the years regarding her profession (chosen or otherwise) and the types of guys she'd be likely to encounter in its pursuit, the likelihood that she's learned the hard way to defend herself first and ask questions later is unfortunately high.

Reacting to Ashe in this way was certainly a mistake, even an unfortunate mistake. But it wasn't "hysteria", or Megumi would have had a much harder time getting Junko to calm down and listen. On the contrary, as soon as Junko finds out Ashe is deaf, she immediately does the mental rewind herself ("Oh, so that's why she grabbed me instead of saying 'Hey, hold on a sec.'"), without needing further explanation; and she listens attentively to what Ashe is saying, without any further attempts at "shooting the messenger" despite the obvious distress what Ashe is saying is causing Junko.
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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by Sackett » Fri May 10, 2019 1:50 pm

I think it is pretty clear that Junko was angry at Ping. For trying to intervene and seduce this scientist guy who Junko actually has a favorable attitude towards.

Whether this anger is primarily fueled by embarrassment, or by jealousy, it is still anger directed at Ping.

However, Ping just reminded Junko that she's an ignorant android struggling with how to interact with others, and that she also heavily devalues herself. Resulting in Junko feeling pity, empathy, and frustration. Thus her comment to Ping to shut up because she was supposed to be angry at Ping, and then giving Ping a hug.

It's the sort of thing that happens when your friend does something monstrously stupid, and you are furious at them for doing something that is so obviously aimed to harm you, and then he makes a comment that shows he was actually being monstrously stupid in a different way that makes you feel sorry for him instead, rapidly deflating your anger, and leaving you very confused about how to behave.

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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by darrin » Fri May 10, 2019 7:18 pm

Sackett wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:50 pm
I think it is pretty clear that Junko was angry at Ping. For trying to intervene and seduce this scientist guy who Junko actually has a favorable attitude towards.
I keep coming back to what Ashe says in 1552, "Do you really think he would confuse you with that... girl?" Junko's response "He does?", i.e. he does know the difference between Junko and Ping-"disguised"-as-Junko, strongly implies to me that Junko wasn't at all worried about Ping "stealing" the Old Man from her, but rather that the Old Man might get an unfavorable impression of the real Junko from the antics of the ersatz one.

(I know I got a lot of mileage out of the claim that "no one could possibly mistake Ping's disguise for the real Junko" serving as evidence for the Old Man recognizing Ping specifically. It might be hypocritical of me then to flip-flop and assume that Junko is thinking that anyone could make such a mistake. But I'm not claiming that Junko has taken a careful look at Ping and concluded that Junko's in trouble because of the perfection of Ping's disguise; she's too worried about the ramifications to worry about the a priori likelihood of the inputs. I think I can concede that's she's not 100% rational at the moment without having to grab a pitchfork and join the mob calling her hysterical.)

The very first thing we heard Junko saying about the Old Man is how "intelligent" and "mature" he is, evidently a far cry from the usual "stupid" clients she needs to deal with. It's implied by this that he has similarly been treating her as much more than just an EK provider. Possibly he has fully disclosed to her his Sony-related research ("collecting personality profiles of young women like you" or some such), as I've claimed; or possibly he was pretending to be a client without disclosing his motives, but carrying himself off as a much more "intelligent" and "mature" client than she's ever had before.

Either way, the last thing she wants would be for him to lose this favorable impression of her, to see "her" (Ping-as-Junko) as someone not actually interested in or capable of more than just providing certain "services" (at least the ones Ping believed to be relevant). So I think the possibility of Ping managing to "seduce" the Old Man (again given Ping's naivete) would be much less worrisome to Junko than the possibility of whatever self-image Junko had worked so hard to construct being shattered (especially combined with the idea of Ping doing something so potentially risky -- what if it wasn't the Old Man, but someone who'd take Ping up on the offer? -- in pursuit of something so unnecessary).
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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by Rapierman » Fri May 10, 2019 9:10 pm

Yanno, given that Junko whispered to Ping in that last panel that she's "supposed to be angry" makes me think that there's a play going on for the benefit of the adults (to keep them from realizing that there's something going on). I would think that she's pretending to be angry to give them a safe way out of there.
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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by Invisigoth » Fri May 10, 2019 9:34 pm

R-man, you're really overthinking this

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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by S1arburst » Fri May 10, 2019 11:31 pm

darrin wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:36 am
Wow, you guys are shitting on Ping now too?

I am pretty done here with repeating myself about how dismissive and denigrating this line is to the characters, so this will be my last post this thread. But as bad as that was in Junko's direction, for Ping it is pretty much crossing into puppy-kicking territory.
The facts are that Junko and Ping are being a crying mess on the floor. Now they might have reasons for this, but I don't see a problem with observing that they're being super emotional right now or guessing reasons why. That's what SD is for. And yes Junko could possibly be hungry, amplifying her negative emotions. What's the problem with postulating that? That doesn't mean she doesn't have reasons for the emotions in the first place, or that hunger possibly amplifying means that they need to be dismissed.
darrin wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:36 am
Ping has no such luxury. Everything she knows about the world, everything she understands about people and how to act around those people, is composed entirely of what the Old Man chose to shove into her skull, and with the comparatively small addition of what she has managed to learn herself from those people around her who alternatively ignore her or patronize her. Her emotional responses to the situations she finds herself in are also completely constrained by what the Old Man decided would be appropriate responses. [snip]
This is true. She doesn't have a choice about the way she analyzes things. Poor robot has an emotional operating system [949] This whole arc she's been jumping to unfortunate conclusions. First that Junko was planning on having sex with Dr. Gero (where did we learn his name?). In her games there's obviously the possibility that some of her clients want that, but it doesn't seem like that's how she normally wants it to go [1175]. Next that her taking this appointment would be a favor to Junko. Even if Junko did want to go the route that Ping assumed, if she was listening at all, this is one guy that Junko likes. She definitely would NOT view Ping taking over as a good thing! Finally she assumed that Gero didn't want to play with her. I didn't see that. She acted arch towards, him, he acted arch back. He was actually making her uncomfortable by how much physical contact he was initiating.

But in lots of Manga there's characters making hugely dumb mistaken assumptions about their friends and romantic interests, in order to make for an exciting story. So obviously it makes sense to program Ping to reason like this.
darrin wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:45 am
The word "hysterical" by its very nature, and certainly given its origins, is intrinsically dismissive; it is essentially equivalent to calling someone "inappropriately emotional." Again, given that we don't yet know the details of what Junko thought was going on between her and the Old Man relative to what he thought was going on, we aren't yet justified in trying to gauge the appropriateness of her emotions here. Starting off by labeling her state as "hysterical" (let alone dismissing it as due to something like "hunger" completely unrelated to the events as we've seen them develop so far) is taking as an assumption the thing that's being argued.
If Junko's not hysterical, she certainly over-responding. I don't view her reaction to Ashe as appropriate at all. Ashe didn't hurt Junko. She didn't even restrain her, just temporarily arrested her dash. Never mind that Ashe is non-verbal, I don't think Junko was in a frame of mind to stop from bulling out of the building merely from someone calling to her anyway. Maybe slapping Ashe would have been reasonable given Junko's history, but I think not immediately following it up with a kick to the groin.
darrin wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 11:57 am
Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:13 am
As much as I like Junko, I cannot pawn her anger at Ping being purely about Ping offering herself up to protect Junko. That is part of it, but there is more going on I think you would agree.
I don't agree, no. In the last panel Junko is hugging Ping. The clear implication is that she was angry on Ping's behalf. If she were angry at Ping, especially for muscling in on Junko's "job" or whatever you were implying, that wouldn't have happened.
We can't hear what Junko was saying as she went storming out of the room, but I got a lot of a "How could you do that, I don't want to ever speak to you again," vibe. Yeah NOW she's hugging Ping, saying shut up she's supposed to be angry with her. Her emotional response is changing as she hears Ping talk. She WAS angry with her, and I think not for being selfless.

I don't know what Junko thought Ping was trying to do. I didn't know for sure either until Ping went into the Foxhole and explained. We don't know if Junko let Ping explain at all, or just started yelling at her and then tried storming out of the room. So we don't know how much Junko was aware of before the last strip or two, but she was obviously responding very negatively to Ping.
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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Sat May 11, 2019 12:14 am

darrin wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 11:57 am
I don't agree, no. In the last panel Junko is hugging Ping. The clear implication is that she was angry on Ping's behalf. If she were angry at Ping, especially for muscling in on Junko's "job" or whatever you were implying, that wouldn't have happened.
Her "tummy" was never "growling", that is fabricated bullshit. You don't need to "set aside" what never existed in the first place.
I think you are reading too much of what you want it to be into the situation. The same might be said of me, but why do you not want Junko to have a well balanced meal?

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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by darrin » Sat May 11, 2019 12:43 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:14 am
why do you not want Junko to have a well balanced meal?
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Re: [1554] the parts needed

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Sat May 11, 2019 1:13 am

darrin wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:43 am
[Mu.
Dairy is part of a well balanced diet... we are part of the way there. :D

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