Welcome to the new MegaTokyo Forums! The old forums are available (in read-only mode) at http://archive.forums.megatokyo.com.

[1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Moderators: Invisigoth, chemi

User avatar
cidjen
Posts: 802
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Location: Too many to fit in this margin area
Contact:

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by cidjen » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:42 pm

paarfi wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:18 pm
and know how product development works in the real world.
I do not claim to know any of that ;)

Being an 'Engineer' does not mean you don't know or don't do the kind of stuff dr Gero does, I know :)

(like, you know, he might have a MSc or PhD in practical sciences like CS/IT and/or electronics, and that can carry a sub-title of An Engineer, where I originally come from, and the latter (Ph.D) even gives you _legal_ right to prefix your name with a 'dr'... :) yeah I know... )

I mean, he KNOWS people and is high enough in PD of Sony to actually pull his own weight. He still takes on directions of what to research/develop, but has enough _freedom_ from 'the marketing people' to be OK 'disagreeing' with them...?

He sorta has to know his stuff, to be able to pull this off.

All the more surprise for Nintendo, when he actually DOES.

Ok maybe too realistic here, since MT is 'a game' :)

User avatar
Ningen 2
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:15 pm
Location: Location, Location

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by Ningen 2 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:00 pm

Or he could be "Great Engineer" Gero in the same way that we have "Great Teacher" Largo.
Image Ningen pity unfortunate individual.

User avatar
darrin
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by darrin » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:33 pm

MoneyMan wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:09 am
Maybe I'm overthinking it, but my feeling is that the obvious next step is to apply his plan to physical flaws as well.
I'm sure you're not overthinking it, given that some of the main focuses of the comic from very early on were the production of a visual novel about a "mostly color blind" girl, and the struggles of the principal VA for that project to make sure the emotional connection between that girl and her "user" was genuine. Granted we haven't heard much about Sight in the past few chapters, but I am quite sure Fred hasn't forgotten it; and since the last time we did hear about Sight was when Dom (and thus Sega) was angling for control of the project, I am pretty sure that these aren't coincidental unrelated plot threads, but important issues that Fred will one way or another pull together.

On the subject of whether the Old Man is actually an engineer or not... in 1546 he refers to Ping as "one of my prototypes." I know I've been saying in the past few threads that his lack of conversational focus on Ping strongly indicates to me that he's not a "lone genius" who made her self-aware above and beyond the Project Requirements Sony handed him. But I don't want that to be misconstrued too far in the other direction either. A marketer or other non-engineer Sony employee would refer to "our [i.e. Sony's] prototype." One who is actually intellectually honest (should such a thing exist :P) would refer to "Development's prototype" or "R&D's prototype". "My prototype" is just possessive enough that, yeah, he's an engineer, almost certainly the team lead. And not an MBA manager of such a team; one can argue about how much of the actual assembly he did as opposed to his juniors working under his direction, but he knows which end of a screwdriver is the business end.
Avatar by Broken, I changed the book
My rescripts, now with little bits of commentary for each one

User avatar
BetaCygnus
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Veenendaal, NL

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by BetaCygnus » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:27 am

Okay, I guess I was wrong in thinking he could actually turn out to be a good guy in MT for a change.
I’m sad that I have to admit he is becoming more and more questionable. I really would have liked to see a fairly normal adult male with no disturbing or dubious goals in MT for a change.

Thanks for the update, Fred. Interesting development for sure! =)
— Member № 48735 · February 13, 2006 —

User avatar
Okashinamaru
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by Okashinamaru » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:32 am

Ningen 2 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:00 pm
Or he could be "Great Engineer" Gero in the same way that we have "Great Teacher" Largo.
This is Japan, not China. :P

User avatar
darrin
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by darrin » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:17 am

BetaCygnus wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:27 am
Okay, I guess I was wrong in thinking he could actually turn out to be a good guy in MT for a change.
He almost certainly thinks of himself as a good guy, which would potentially make him much more dangerous. Maybe not a "find the cure for cancer" good guy, but "hey, I am making plenty of money for Sony, and look how many users we're making happy as a result." I'd bet a lot of donuts that Ashe snapping her phone wasn't because Fred couldn't think of anything clever for her to say :lol:, but because she knows full well that trying to convince someone like this that they're not quite the good guy they think is currently going to be a huge waste of time.

How did Picard put it, "Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot"?
Avatar by Broken, I changed the book
My rescripts, now with little bits of commentary for each one

User avatar
MoneyMan
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by MoneyMan » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:18 pm

Very good point about Sight. The parallel between a colourblind woman in a dating sim and a deaf woman working in a love hotel does feel deliberate.

Just speculating wildly, but I'm suspecting that Ashe had heard about Sight putting a positive spin on romance involving people with impaired senses and was quite looking forward to it. Then she connected the dots in this conversation that it isn't going to make people feel okay about dating her, it's intended to steal away the ones who already do.

It's a guess, but it explains her reaction.

Selvius
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:21 am

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by Selvius » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:39 pm

Dr Gero hasn’t learned yet that the two are inextricable. Makes me wonder what kind of relationships (romantic and otherwise) he’s had, if any.

It’s strange; if it weren’t for the age thing, and the ulterior motives, I’d almost say Junko and Gero would be perfect growing experiences for each other. If they were on equal footing, she’d verbally kick the ship out of him the first time he said something like this. And despite our love and understanding for her, she can be an asshole at times. We just already know her story. I’m curious to see if Gero might yet surprise us.

Or he’s an irredeemable asshole, but I don’t think Fred writes characters that simple.

On a side note, what he’s describing is literally what happens with other fantasies, like pornography, for instance. It’s why it’s so popular and sometimes a harmful influence. The idea that consumers are inculpable is false.

User avatar
darrin
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by darrin » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:50 pm

MoneyMan wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:18 pm
The parallel between a colourblind woman in a dating sim and a deaf woman working in a love hotel does feel deliberate.
It might be worth pointing out the popularity of Katawa Shoujo in our world. While I felt strongly at the time that my own intense interest in that VN had no "improper" basis, I see no way I could prove that to an outside observer: "he spent a lot of time on a VN about disabled girls" would be the only objective observation, everything else was "all in me head" as Mr. Tweedy put it.

I have no way of knowing which if any of these possibilities Fred might choose to pursue, but I can at least imagine MegaTokyo's Sony finding it advantageous to cloak themselves in a nice thick PC shield... "Of COURSE we're including the differently abled in the works we're producing, you're not opposed to that are you? You're not prejudiced on this issue are you?" Handily deflecting any potential criticism, and while it'd be quite obvious that their only real motivation in doing so was profit, proving let alone taking any kind of action against any actual abuses involved would be a much more difficult proposition. (And Selvius is completely correct that the (paying) customers are far from blameless in this process.)

And until Ashe figures out which out of the multitude of hypothetically possible abuses is actually the one that is happening, she may end up going through a heck of a lot of phones. :(
Avatar by Broken, I changed the book
My rescripts, now with little bits of commentary for each one

User avatar
Roborat
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by Roborat » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:20 pm

Well, that fills in some of the philosophy involved with designing Ping, I hope somebody clues him in how wrong a lot of what he said was. It looks like someone was about to, until they killed their phone.

I knew someone was going to mention Katawa Shojo.

I like how after how much time has elapsed, nobody is taking any notice of the various ninjas scattered around the area, you would think police and medical personnel would be on scene by now.

Invisigoth
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by Invisigoth » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:26 pm

The Ninja haven't had a chance to recuperate from Miho's return to the compound and subsequent snatching of Yaku. In fact I'm estimating that they may have just now taken Junpei down.

User avatar
MoneyMan
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by MoneyMan » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:38 pm

I suspect the issue with the ninja is that passers-by can't see them even when they're unconscious.

User avatar
cidjen
Posts: 802
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Location: Too many to fit in this margin area
Contact:

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by cidjen » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:45 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:26 pm
The Ninja haven't had a chance to recuperate from Miho's return to the compound and subsequent snatching of Yaku. In fact I'm estimating that they may have just now taken Junpei down.
Oh right...
so then Largo will rush to rescue Junpei some time, IDK, tomorrow (comic time ;) )? One way or another, Largo still did not encounter ninjas other than Junpei in this game...

But then he'd have to take Miho's word for it... or Yakugashi and Mugi will come and beg him to help them free Junpei? Not seeing it happening without Yuki's influence and Erika's built-in weapons though. L33t sc3n3s 53n535 tingling lol.

User avatar
maldrul
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Texas

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by maldrul » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:46 pm

Kotone isn't the one that is colorblind. The protagonist is. IE, the Player. Which would mean the game is going to be drawn mainly in black and white (pencil drawn perhaps? ;) )

Kotone is describes as "A girl of nothing but grays..."

This ties in with the Player's colorblindness. A colorblind Player meets a girl who looks like herself even to someone who is colorblind.
Image

Invisigoth
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by Invisigoth » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:01 pm

cidjen wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:45 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:26 pm
The Ninja haven't had a chance to recuperate from Miho's return to the compound and subsequent snatching of Yaku. In fact I'm estimating that they may have just now taken Junpei down.
Oh right...
so then Largo will rush to rescue Junpei some time, IDK, tomorrow (comic time ;) )? One way or another, Largo still did not encounter ninjas other than Junpei in this game...

But then he'd have to take Miho's word for it... or Yakugashi and Mugi will come and beg him to help them free Junpei? Not seeing it happening without Yuki's influence and Erika's built-in weapons though. L33t sc3n3s 53n535 tingling lol.
Pretty sure that Largo isn't going to be rescuing anyone at all any time soon.

User avatar
cidjen
Posts: 802
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Location: Too many to fit in this margin area
Contact:

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by cidjen » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:11 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:01 pm

Pretty sure that Largo isn't going to be rescuing anyone at all any time soon.
Well then who else? the Kitsune?

Invisigoth
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by Invisigoth » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 am

cidjen wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:11 am
Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:01 pm

Pretty sure that Largo isn't going to be rescuing anyone at all any time soon.
Well then who else? the Kitsune?
Oh hell yeah!

Mugi if she can walk of course. You're forgetting that Junpei has switched sides now and Largo has no hold on him. You might say he's upgraded for love. But no, there's no love lost between Mugi and Largo and it'd be a cold day in hell when she'd go to see him for help. For that matter when Miho recovers she could parlay with the Ninja, I'm pretty sure that she's gained a degree of respect from them.

User avatar
darrin
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by darrin » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:31 am

maldrul wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:46 pm
Kotone isn't the one that is colorblind. The protagonist is.
Doh, thanks, sorry for that gaffe. (I saw Sayuri's "protagonist" quote in the strip I linked, and since I think of Kotone as the "main character" of Sight my brain glossed over the details that I used to know better. :oops:)

I don't think my goof detracts from the point MoneyMan was making. And I think at least a bit of what I was saying about MT Sony's motivations would still apply, if we extend them from "the characters being simulated by EDS units" to also include "the users to whom those EDS units are marketed". (The "wild speculation" I made a dozen threads back or so that the Old Man would know sign language was derived from an idea I had that Sony would want to include deaf users in the market to whom Ping was targeted, so she'd need to know JSL as well as being able to speak Japanese.) The issues of to what extent that's "manipulative" and in what direction are maybe not exactly identical to those entailed by building such "imperfections" into the EDS units themselves, but I think the debate on how much of that is really "progressive" versus just plain "profit-driven" on their part would be largely similar.
Avatar by Broken, I changed the book
My rescripts, now with little bits of commentary for each one

User avatar
Zandra
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by Zandra » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:50 pm

maldrul wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:46 pm
Kotone isn't the one that is colorblind. The protagonist is. IE, the Player. Which would mean the game is going to be drawn mainly in black and white (pencil drawn perhaps? ;) )

Kotone is describes as "A girl of nothing but grays..."

This ties in with the Player's colorblindness. A colorblind Player meets a girl who looks like herself even to someone who is colorblind.
My like in,"The world in colors" anime i just watched. Someone is a fan of Megatokyo lol.

Anyway the good doctor Gero needs to be careful les android 18's grandmother ping knocks him into the stratosphere.

Oh totally off topic but yall seen the Bullshit about Vic mignoga? Wow. The court of public opinion is really stupid these days.
I WAS the Owner of Wolfboys 800th post but SOMEBODY had to go and get a new Forum lol!

User avatar
HakuRyoku
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by HakuRyoku » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:28 pm

Zandra wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:50 pm
Oh totally off topic but yall seen the Bullshit about Vic mignoga? Wow. The court of public opinion is really stupid these days.
All I've seen was something about Funimation letting him go after some internal investigation. (which in and of itself can be seen in various forms of light depending on a persons interpretation)
Bringer of pointless claims and false theories
Self imposed president of the 'I *heart* TWB' fan club

Twitch: Diremist04
Twitter: Diremist

User avatar
Zandra
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by Zandra » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:52 pm

HakuRyoku wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:28 pm
Zandra wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:50 pm
Oh totally off topic but yall seen the Bullshit about Vic mignoga? Wow. The court of public opinion is really stupid these days.
All I've seen was something about Funimation letting him go after some internal investigation. (which in and of itself can be seen in various forms of light depending on a persons interpretation)
Oh i know all about internal investigations. they are notoriously Biased at times. and it seems FUnimation wanted to fire vic because he was making too much money or would want more. see he did more than just do VA work at both rooster teeth and RT,and guess who got his posistions at those companies.

Monica Rial. I thought i was a cold bitch but dam. Its hilarious that in this day and age a person can be destroyed just for rumors and un verified accusations.
I WAS the Owner of Wolfboys 800th post but SOMEBODY had to go and get a new Forum lol!

anaril
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:47 am

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by anaril » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:13 am

I find it amazing that at first glance they seem to be having two different conversations but in the end they are still both talking about prostitution. Sure he's going on about how the Ping's personality was constructed but in the end he wants to create "Real" girls only to turn around and sell them. To my mind that makes him a pimp.

Granted he probably only sees the science of it all but that just makes it worse in its own way.

User avatar
BetaCygnus
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Veenendaal, NL

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by BetaCygnus » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:36 am

darrin wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:17 am
How did Picard put it, "Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot"?
Nice quote there, darrin! =)

Still, although it is of course an interesting turn in the story — I am a bit sad. I would’ve enjoyed a non-complicated, non-frustrated male adult person in MT for a change. I would have really liked this one to be, for instance, Junko’s grandfather for real. No strings attached. Just a nice guy with nice or no intentions. That stuff. =)

Wait… when Ping was talking about "that part of me belongs to me" and such… was that this guy projecting through her? Hmmm… Poor Ping. A non-H sex robot. And here I go thinking she was more of a non-H human interaction AI experimental development. Wishful thinking, I guess…

=/
— Member № 48735 · February 13, 2006 —

User avatar
paarfi
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 576
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:32 pm
Location: south-central Pennsylvania

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by paarfi » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:58 am

anaril wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:13 am
I find it amazing that at first glance they seem to be having two different conversations but in the end they are still both talking about prostitution. Sure he's going on about how the Ping's personality was constructed but in the end he wants to create "Real" girls only to turn around and sell them. To my mind that makes him a pimp.
Granted he probably only sees the science of it all but that just makes it worse in its own way.
No, I think you are wrong. Ping has made it very clear that she is "not a sex toy" but rather "a non 'H' model [who] only play[s] 'pure' games that simulate love and relationships. Nothing else." [1174]. She could have sex "if [she] wanted to. But that part of [her] belongs to [her]. It's not part of any game" that she has to play [1175].

If Ping were an H-model; if she were programmed to have sex with her user (purchaser) when a game scenario reached the dirty parts, then you might have a case. I think the counter-argument that Dr Gero and Sony would make in that case is that the EDS is not a person but thing, and that would make her more like a fancy sex toy than prostitution. Some might still find that morally objectionable, but it's not at the same level. We might think differently because we see Ping as a person, but Dr Gero and Sony clearly don't.

From what we've seen of Dr Gero so far though, I think making H-models wouldn't really interest him. It's not that difficult or challenging to make something that will get people off. Any hack can do that. But to simulate love and relationships, that's a professional challenge worthy of his efforts and his genius. That Ping is able to have sex at all is likely Dr Gero striving to make the EDS units as "real" as he can, out of professional ambition and pride. It's also possible that the same hardware is used for non-H and H models, with Ping just receiving the non-H software.

The fact that Ping had been considering having sex with "Junko's date" is just an indication that Dr Gero did better than he could have imagined. Ping was doing that because Junko is her friend, and Ping loves all her friends. She thought she saw Junko in trouble, and she tried to help. This was out of her own free will and done for love (if not the love of the intended sexee). It's no wonder Dr Gero was fascinated by her behavior. This is was very naive of Ping, but hardly prostitution.
Proud owner of kendermouse's 500th post.
Lean and slippered forum loon

User avatar
darrin
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1548] the less appealing parts of her personality

Post by darrin » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:05 pm

BetaCygnus wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:36 am
darrin wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:17 am
How did Picard put it, "Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot"?
Nice quote there, darrin! =)
Heh, thanks. In this context though, especially given what anaril says above, I keep thinking of the scene I already linked a while back, when Picard and Guinan discuss the impact of having access to disposable people.

Now I don't want to argue against paarfi on this, all his quotes are correct of course. But the key point for me is that Ping is capable of "going all the way", and it can't possibly be an accident that she can. Whether this was just a matter of "professional pride" on the Old Man's part, or something more deliberate (part of explicit -- no pun intended -- design requirements from Sony Product) is hard to say yet. And I have no doubt the Old Man is more than capable of getting that part of the design right without necessarily being as intellectually interested in it as in the emotional aspects he discusses here, so that distinction might not even be all that critically important.

And yes, that part of her is "hers", she gets to choose... and yet, I have a really strong (and really bad :() feeling that the Old Man has, or could easily work out, a very good idea of exactly what steps any given "user" would need to go through to "unlock" that feature, not to "force" her as part of a game, but to "convince" her that that is what she actually wants at the moment. (A cynic might say at this point that in some ways that is how it works a lot of the time with "real" people -- Beth describing to Jerry all the other guys in high school who would "say anything to complete their mission". So again, even from a "professional pride" point of view, the designers would think of that as just adding more realism.)

So even though I don't have any rational arguments to stack up here against paarfi's, my gut feeling is that I'm at least as worried as anaril. "A whole generation of disposable prostitutes" to paraphrase Guinan, in some ways an even squickier image than a bunch of robots digging away in the salt mines. And of course the ads, the instruction manuals, everything coming out of Sony brags about how beneficial this is ("hey, it's not a real girl (or boy) having to do that stuff, think of the benefits!"), and affirms that it's her (or his) "choice", and warn against the dangers of trying to "force" it.

But it lives in your house.

It plays only with you.

It craves, and thrives on, your attention.

"Chobits" was ultimately disappointing to me, because in the end, no matter how much Hideki respects and genuinely loves Chi, she can't go that far, even if she truly wants to.
SpoilerShow
It would completely erase her memory, effectively killing that "version" of Chi.
Of course that's not "necessary" to Hideki or Chi or their relationship, of course it's physically possible to live without that. But after all those volumes of hammering in that Chi was just as worthy of being an individual as any flesh-and-blood human, for her to be denied the agency to make that choice, for someone else to decide that for them, seemed almost as wrong to me as explicitly treating her like a piece of property had.

Now Fred said (or at least was claimed to have said, I am drawing from vague memories of posts on the old forums, I may be muddling here) that Ping wasn't Chi, that this wasn't going in the direction of Chobits, and I was pretty happy about that for exactly the above reason, and I let out a hearty "good for her" when Ping told Junko that part of her was "hers". Only now am I starting to worry that the opposite of Chi's situation could be even more horrific: you are designed to think that part of you belongs to you, and when the user makes the "right choices" you are absolutely convinced it's your decision to respond in kind to whatever degree you both desire. But the cheat codes are out there, and you'll never know that they know just what script to read from to get you there.
Avatar by Broken, I changed the book
My rescripts, now with little bits of commentary for each one

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests