To IG's point, at least at the start of Endgames, before anyone knew anything about anyone had nothing to do with love, it was all apparently manipulation. Maybe there's something we don't know yet though. Or a whole lot of something.
We might have an easier time of knowing what Kotone is going through if we knew what she was, and how, and for how long, and why, and to what end. Does it or ever did love any of its targets, including apparently Piro. (Or for that matter, Largo, or Junko, or if Piro is unique and special in the eons gone by or whatever.) If that love was and still applies, the jury might be out on that. Certainly some sort of love for Piro, it seems so sometimes. Yet of course we've all gone over this uncertainty and perception thing before a bunch of times. Including the potential everything Miho is and does is a lie, or all imaginary.
To Darrin's point, yes. The problem appears to be that we never know for sure if Miho is actually being herself and direct and honest, regardless if she seems one way or the other at any given time. But it's pretty clear that when Kimiko is displaying something, she's actually feeling it and thinking it, even when she puts on a happy face to others about it. There seem no end to most of the things we can argue about, but that Kimiko (or Largo, or Erika, and often Piro) can usually almost always be taken at face value, and that they are consistent and usually somewhat predictable, doesn't seem one of those arguing points.
For Piro, when he's strayed over towards the real thing side, it's been pretty obvious what he's trying. (He's not too good at it.) And there are plenty of examples of otherwise, being real. A good example is probably his thoughts about it as portrayed as a discussion with his conscience in 898
Ah, do not abandon those who rely upon you; seems quite a bit that could apply to. Past, present or future. But it's at least somewhat honest, even if it's conflicted. Which maybe also isn't so different than his recent discussion with his conscience.
Yet maybe also being somewhat fluid with honesty and directness (in spite of how bad he usually is at making it seem real) tells us something right there, if we are picking 'ships according to some behaviors. Maybe our two little 'hide things' chameleons do belong together, even if clearly she far outclasses him in every way possible. Which on the other side of that then, if we go with more behaviors done more closely, shy reserved deep-resolve uncertain hesitant self-doubt would put the other pair together. Would is not quite true though, it already has been. So then equally obvious to the face value is that Piro has just chosen fully where it's been for days, the here and now actual, and not the then and gone. Rejected the uncertainty of the past that had been filled in by the mind in not necessarily honest and reasonable ways. To suggest that everything is over and done is certainly premature; but to suggest the choice hasn't already been made is denying the facts.
On that subject, to nobody's and everybody's points, this notion by many here of how Kimiko might act badly, that her behaviors haven't been clear. What is the concern here? When recently has Kimiko been angry or unreasonable, much less a destructive monster. If she ever was a zilla, it was one that cried and wished she hadn't after briefly stomping some buildings, and hasn't stomped anything since. She hasn't done anything like it since 868-870, might be time to let it go, the entire outlook has changed. If the worry is being overly smothering now, there's little recent to support that. What is supposed to happen next, where Kimiko is going to do things that are going to upset or push away Piro? Unless he gets angry at himself for making the decision he made, and whatever that has to do with her might be questionable. That, seems to largely depend, upon what Miho is supposed to be saying about what. That's later though. The question would be if the before applies any longer. That seems no.
, calling Kimiko overbearing and given to turning relationships into train wrecks appears to be more so Erika berating herself. After all, Kimiko is being less than overbearing here, and Erika then starts giving her own self a hard time about how she treats people.
, Erika is once again being insensitive and seeming more to be talking about herself when she "jokes" about Kimiko being dangerous and unpredictable. At least in panel 5 Erika realizes saying Kimiko is a destructive monster just makes Kimiko cry harder. (although fairly characteristically, Erika then sort of blames Kimiko for not getting the joke, although in a softer more kind way; and we should probably be putting it into the context developed starting in 879 anyway).
What then is a kimizilla though. It's an exaggeration of Kimiko that's more Erika. It's an invention of Erika that doesn't describe the state Kimiko is in, despondent, miserable, distressed, remorseful. Even if we don't consider this mainly Erika talking about herself, and consider Kimiko a 'building-stomping monster' and it describes what Kimiko did to Piro's feelings the day before, Kimiko apparently hasn't done anything like that since they made up the next day, days ago. Seems then a stretch to suggest most any of Kimiko's behaviors between 963
and now towards Piro have been smothering or monstrous or bad. Kimiko has been exceptionally empathetic, patient and understanding; that term doesn't apply any longer, if it ever did.
cidjen wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:25 pm
So yes... Piro can lie, for his own purposes, how shocking...
The point there was more along the lines that he's not inexperienced in dealing with the expectations of others, not unfamiliar with projecting appearances, and that whatever has been said and done otherwise or not, we can't fully trust he didn't come to MT to seek out a continuation of Endgames (whatever that entails). Some of it was also that he's seemed to more often indulge in such than the other primary participants have.
re. Piro's experience, there is a scene, where Largo notices, that Piro talks with not just ONE girl, and did not dissolve into a puddle of ooze (620), from Largo's expression we can sort-of tell, it's not Piro's usual setup. So Piro could not talk to girls calmly before... so could not get experiences.
Given some twisting the truth aspect of Piro, perhaps it's not as obvious as it first appears. Although certainly it's not on Analogue levels of obfuscation, and non-committal-pseudo-agreement, and lack of detail. Largo says he knows there's a powerhouse of determination underneath, perhaps suggesting not being calm in some harem ish situation was a bit of a jab at this outer persona. Or if not a dig, Largo suggesting Piro has a difficult time interacting directly with females, perhaps Largo isn't quite as insightful about Piro as he believes. (we do also have the case where Largo seems to have known a lot more about what happened during Endgames than he let on) Although yes it does seem also when it's just casual unimportant stuff, or there's the opportunity for misunderstanding, Piro does seem to make a lot of mistakes in how he interacts.
Still, like a lot of other things, now is not like before. Many things have changed in big ways. How long and how well do we hang onto what parts of how it used to be. When are no longer applicable examples discarded in favor of the now.
What I mean is, Miho would need an act of extraordinary luck, superhuman intervention, commit a crime or a major twist in the story, to get Piro back where she wants him... it still doesn't mean, that he does want her back. What happens to Miho, in his story ?
Does Miho want him anywhere though. That seems it might largely depended on what she wants to talk to him about and why. Also, yes, it doesn't mean he wants her back -- although his most recent decision seems to be no, with him rejecting the remembered past. Yet is back the right way to put it? You can't get something back that you never had. He even says his thoughts were incorrect about it all. Definition and interpretation and perspective if anything ever was.
Doesn't matter in some ways, nobody gets to pick 'ships, they pick themselves, and it seems pretty clear so far where things have been headed recently if not the entire time. Depending on perception of course. Which even still, no matter how much something seems a certain way, it could still be untrue. Or even in a total absence of any sign something is possible, and no logical reason to believe it possible, that thing could still turn out to be the reality. Especially when reality itself doesn't exist until at some arbitrary point where it's created out of nothing. Even if that does draw The Horde, sometimes that happens. Doesn't have to ruin anything, or maybe the fun is things being ruined.