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[1515] Reset?

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by Invisigoth » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:26 pm

I suspect that Ninja Grrl is very high ranked in their organization given her casual approach to an emergency termination order, questioning of Miho and general nonchalance regarding Junpei sneaking Miho into the Ninja compound to hide her.

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by Liminaut » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:24 pm

"It's why we created the whole ninja movie genre in the first place".

That is really interesting. It implies that in MT, stories create reality. Like the reason the MT police get to have mecha is because there is mecha anime, and the mecha anime makes real mecha possible. This fits into the discussion around "magical girls" vs. "the people playing them". There isn't a really good border between story and reality.

This explains why Stability needs to keep such a close eye on stories. If stories get out of control, reality gets out of control. If Erika had gotten really aggressively bitter around the end of her career, it could have sent the magical girl genre into a very dark place, with the result of having bitter, angry magical girls running around. (Although I think it would be great to have a MG series about a angsty goth teenager).

Without Miho to anchor it, what is her story going to do? Will it need to find a new Analogue?

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by Roamer » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:00 pm

paarfi wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:48 am
A wild Yaku appears! She looks like she could use a donut.
I was thinking a tranquilizer dart, personally.
Liminaut wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:24 pm
"It's why we created the whole ninja movie genre in the first place".

That is really interesting. It implies that in MT, stories create reality. Like the reason the MT police get to have mecha is because there is mecha anime, and the mecha anime makes real mecha possible. This fits into the discussion around "magical girls" vs. "the people playing them". There isn't a really good border between story and reality.

This explains why Stability needs to keep such a close eye on stories. If stories get out of control, reality gets out of control. If Erika had gotten really aggressively bitter around the end of her career, it could have sent the magical girl genre into a very dark place, with the result of having bitter, angry magical girls running around. (Although I think it would be great to have a MG series about a angsty goth teenager).

Without Miho to anchor it, what is her story going to do? Will it need to find a new Analogue?
About the stories creating reality...maybe. Certainly it's an entertaining idea. And it strongly reinforces the need for control mechanisms and sysadmins. But after grooming Miho for two centuries, I'm sure her story isn't prepared to give up that easily. And, you know, Yakugashi seems more upset than is warranted. Maybe her story has latched onto Yaku to try and use her to drag Miho back?
Invisigoth wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:59 pm
Well, Yaku is still a kid despite her fierce demeanor so it's possible that Ninja Grrl is holding to a standard of not frightening the children and livestock
GreyWolfe wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:03 am
And so enters Death, the Destroyer of Worlds.
My first thought on seeing Ninja Grrl disappear was "Holy crap, the kitsune really are as dangerous as they say." At this point, I think NG took off because she's curious as to what will happen...with a healthy dose of caution where the kitsune are concerned.
iffy wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:39 am
Either way I wonder what Yaku plans on saying or doing to Miho right now. Angry about Mugi getting hurt, upset about Miho's callous disregard for feelings; does Yaku not being fully human, and in her youthful exuberance etc, actually know something of import and impact? Or would it appear to only be another case of potentially Yuki and a sense of knowing better not being tempered by experience.
I have to believe that someone with the abilities of a Kitsune has to have been warned about what using power recklessly can do. That would partially explain her anger, but she can't help but think that she has to realize that she might have done something like that as well, by accident. That fear could be feeding into it as well.

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by Liminaut » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:26 am

It's not that Yaku is a Kitsune. It's that Yaku is a Named Protagonist with A Backstory and A Fanbase on the MT forums. That's way out of N1nj4Grrl's league.

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by Wonderduck » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:36 am

Oh dear. THIS is gonna leave a mark.

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by arimareiji » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:09 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:24 pm
She would have probably made tea spiked with fast acting poison to send foul Miho off to the long goodnight.
(snip)
That would have been too cool! :D
As many times as you've used those exact words, I'm half-wondering: Do you have a certain... special... something in your basement with a nameplate of "Foul Miho". :?
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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:21 am

arimareiji wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:09 am
As many times as you've used those exact words, I'm half-wondering: Do you have a certain... special... something in your basement with a nameplate of "Foul Miho". :?
:ninja:
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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by Old_Gray_One » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:55 am

garapagosu wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:37 pm
Is it appropriate to murder Junpei's guest while they stay at your residence?
<Snip>
Only if you can do it, and not stain the carpets.

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by Yl33 D4 N00b » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:32 am

Junpei's probably thinking "Saa..... I'd rather be at my apartment in Tokyo, playing NHL2K18....." :roll:

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by iffy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:54 am

Junpei could be kind of embarrassed, or grinning about his {whatever ninjagirl is}, or sheepish about the circumstances of bringing Yakugashi here. It appears more a humorous look than something else, perhaps, but of course that doesn't prove anything.

Invisigoth wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:26 pm
I suspect that Ninja Grrl is very high ranked in their organization given her casual approach to an emergency termination order, questioning of Miho and general nonchalance regarding Junpei sneaking Miho into the Ninja compound to hide her.
Given her speech and behavior patterns, demeanor and now, leaving so suddenly, maybe it could also be hardly ranked at all.

Roamer wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:00 pm
I have to believe that someone with the abilities of a Kitsune has to have been warned about what using power recklessly can do. That would partially explain her anger, but she can't help but think that she has to realize that she might have done something like that as well, by accident. That fear could be feeding into it as well.
Depending on what abilities they have. And Yaku seems very angry. But is also likely partly exaggerating. We're lead to believe it's about her mother, and the situation, Megumi, the momentum and direction of events in general, whatever she's thinking in 1505, including something more we don't know about. What is Yaku planning on doing... What can she actually do, whatever it's about. However much she learned at the shrine and thereabouts and along the way.

Or sort of like when njgrl appeared to test if Miho was serious about dying or not in 1484 (whatever the reason and whatever she determined from the exercise) which reminded me of the supposed lack of experience in rescuing people Miho suggests in 1018.

There's that thing about preparing oneself for taking action that is unfamiliar, and the entire aspect of how behaviors change from being in a group, especially with higher hierarchy or more alpha participants, and being alone and the instigator. And sometimes it's more obvious than other times even still (like Kimiko in 946 I suppose is an example)

Liminaut wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:26 am
It's not that Yaku is a Kitsune. It's that Yaku is a Named Protagonist with A Backstory and A Fanbase on the MT forums. That's way out of N1nj4Grrl's league.
Indeed.

cidjen wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:25 am
Maybe she's having second thoughts, but then, what of her 'you don't have any f*king idea how much I want to live!' shoutout a few comics ago...
Yes, she wants to live, no, she must die. The tragedy stokes the flames of emotion. It's not nearly as exciting if she wants to die, or if simply just nothing happens to her or anyone around her.

Yet there are apparently mechanisms for exiting and returning, or at least having it seem that's what happens. If termination is just a story reset, however it works, whatever she is, why would she necessarily care. (although if we take our clearest likely example at the end of chapter 9, there was no story reset; perhaps not enough people were aware for it to matter, or maybe that's not actually how it works) So, an exit to a support facility Yuki and Piro go to, to another plane of existence Kenji speaks of, perhaps even inside of Endgames. Wherever. She doesn't like that character, she's not that character really, appearances can be deceiving, and if anyone should know that, it's her? Then, if in a story, especially the large powerful far-reaching ones, she doesn't die, all sorts of bad things happen. Terrible things, ripping asunder the very fabric of reality, tearing apart the game world, destroying societies, making tough guy superheroes cry like babies. Even if she hasn't apparently died, as in being currently apparently alive.

So how has this particular situation been affecting the fans, or if we wish, Otaku and hordes and other? Having an emergency termination protocol backup, that's compelling narrative, perhaps even cathartic. Even if those tasked seem incapable of actually carrying it out. She beats them up or others take it off track for her. All are powerless to stop the story (whatever it is) from involving them into it. Yanking everyone into it and making them incapable of breaking back out. Which seems potentially a good explanation of what Miho was doing in Endgames; looking for those who wouldn't be pulled in - and potentially a good explanation of why she stopped interacting with Piro and Largo; they weren't capable of meeting that.

Should she want something, and know what that is, if we imagine that Miho is unable or incapable of explaining clearly as to what she wants. Regardless, her going away under cover of a useful occurrence, and everyone forgetting her, shouldn't that satisfy the emotional requirements? Even if there's no dying, just something equivalent to it, might that not include a reset of some sort? Then why not Kimiko acting for her, appearing to die. That's usually how it works, isn't it, the actresses fill in, and provide the experience for. But how does one kill the ephemeral, destroy ideas, remove thoughts and memories. Seems a being that is like that isn't killable, she doesn't exist and never did, even if participants can't forget about what they think was actually there. It leaves a sister no more capable of performing a final blow than Junpei was, or for that matter were Ed or Pirogoeth or Piro or Junko, or whoever else might have thought they tried to. And even if they try, nothing happens or she removes them physically, but mostly they don't even try unless she (or the story, if it's any different) lets them. But boom, you substitute for her. Or she's already jumped out, you've been asked to save her and don't retaliate, the datapad gives you information that scares you away, you've stabbed him and broken the spell but the exact copy has already been created. Others return to this scene... and the potential dealer of death hides from being caught in grandson's room.

This Tohya person really wants to live, but not live, she is really freaked out she didn't die, but can't get anyone to kill her or let anyone kill her; something else, another something else, more something else, and so on. Maybe it's just easier to not choose a something out of everything Miho says and does, to not treat that something chosen as the truth. Maybe it's just easier to ignore or discount each something and all somethings, until if and when one of them happens and is shown to be valid. Until, it's all only perception and potential.

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by darrin » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:46 pm

It's going to be an interesting conversation. At some level, Yakugashi doesn't actually have any reason to be angry at Miho.

If Miho has been telling the truth the past few chapters, and really doesn't have any control over the fanboy hordes that are catastrophically obsessed with her, then presumably she doesn't have much if any control over the Cave of Evil personnel that have latched onto her. In that case, an appropriate response to any kind of "leave my mom alone!" protests from Yakugashi would be that it's Mugi that needs to stay away from Miho, if Mugi wants to stay "safe".

On the other hand, if Teddy-Werebear is right, and Foul Miho's protestations of the past few chapters have in fact been lying for cover, then it makes even less sense to appeal to the evil one in an expectation that they'll change their ways.
Harry Potter wrote:That's not how responsibility works, Professor.... When you do a fault analysis, there's no point in assigning fault to a part of the system you can't change afterward, it's like stepping off a cliff and blaming gravity. Gravity isn't going to change next time. There's no point in trying to allocate responsibility to people who aren't going to alter their actions. Once you look at it from that perspective, you realize that allocating blame never helps anything unless you blame yourself, because you're the only one whose actions you can change by putting blame there.
(From Yudkovsky's Methods of Rationality; note that that chapter contains very severe spoilers, so if you haven't read the work yet and ever intend to, you might want to start at Chapter 1 instead. :D)

So the question becomes, will Miho make any attempt to explain what the heck her deal is to Yakugashi, the way she partially did with Kimiko, and the way she started to with Piro in the bathhouse but for whatever reason changed her mind? (More Backstory Exposition, yay, gets my vote :D) Or will she judge Yakugashi not to be a threat compared to the other shit Miho is dealing with, and blow her off?

Or will Foul Miho cloud Yakugashi's mind with more of her malignant misdirection? :lol:
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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by arimareiji » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:15 pm

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:21 am
arimareiji wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:09 am
As many times as you've used those exact words, I'm half-wondering: Do you have a certain... special... something in your basement with a nameplate of "Foul Miho". :?
:ninja:
How do you know about that stuffed ducky with the letters: M,I,H, and O crudely stitched upon its left breast?
Lucky guess. (^_^)°

Hat tip to the lovely pun... fowl Miho.

Edit:
Liminaut wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:24 pm
(snip)If Erika had gotten really aggressively bitter around the end of her career, it could have sent the magical girl genre into a very dark place, with the result of having bitter, angry magical girls running around.
In our reality, Erika might be responsible for PMMM?
Yl33 D4 N00b wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:32 am
Junpei's probably thinking "Saa..... I'd rather be at my apartment in Tokyo, playing NHL2K18....." :roll:
+1 thread.
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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by cidjen » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:57 pm

iffy wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:54 am
This Tohya person really wants to live, but not live, she is really freaked out she didn't die, but can't get anyone to kill her or let anyone kill her;
On the premise, I think, that so far she could not evade her death one way or another, for too long... 'I cannot escape it, I tried'... it happened to her so many times, but she still has the hope, that some day the curse will be removed ? And she'll be allowed to live, and then peacefully die, and then she won't have to come back next time.
iffy wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:54 am
That's usually how it works, isn't it, the actresses fill in, and provide the experience for.
For us, the audience, who 'give life' to the character... her character (only?) exists in our imagination - the actress channels the story experience to us, but it is us, the audience, who give the story 'life'.
Roamer wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:00 pm
About the stories creating reality...maybe. Certainly it's an entertaining idea. And it strongly reinforces the need for control mechanisms and sysadmins. But after grooming Miho for two centuries, I'm sure her story isn't prepared to give up that easily.
The good 'fiction' stories always contain something to anchor them in reality, right? even if the fiction is completely unrealistic, it has to have some element that we can anchor it to reality by... The stories of olden times, even the Brothers Grimm... they always contain something, that was true at the time of their creation... even if that meaning is lost to us now. Miho is an anchor to the whole genre of stories, of course that won't give up that easy, not as long as there are people willing to read them and give them life in their imagination...
Liminaut wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:24 pm
Without Miho to anchor it, what is her story going to do? Will it need to find a new Analogue?
In this setting, I don't think we're ever going to 'lose' the Miho type of a story... even if only to become an example of how not to live your life.
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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:38 pm

darrin wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:46 pm
Or will Foul Miho cloud Yakugashi's mind with more of her malignant misdirection? :lol:
Just look how many forumites over the years have been enthralled by Miho.

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by Invisigoth » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:43 pm

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:38 pm
darrin wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:46 pm
Or will Foul Miho cloud Yakugashi's mind with more of her malignant misdirection? :lol:
Just look how many forumites over the years have been enthralled by Miho.
*shrug* Look how many are enthralled by Largo and Mugi and Yaku and Yuki and even some by Megumi....not to mention Mami and Asako and Kimiko...though I'm not sure that Kimiko has a fanbase outside the actual strip...

That's sort of the point of character development and exposition

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by Liminaut » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:06 pm

cidjen wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:57 pm
Liminaut wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:24 pm
Without Miho to anchor it, what is her story going to do? Will it need to find a new Analogue?
In this setting, I don't think we're ever going to 'lose' the Miho type of a story... even if only to become an example of how not to live your life.
That's the point, actually. The Story is still there. Does it need an Analogue? If it can't have Miho, who will it take?

I really hope Kimiko doesn't have a heart attack mid-coitus.

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by cidjen » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:03 pm

Liminaut wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:06 pm
cidjen wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:57 pm
Liminaut wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:24 pm
Without Miho to anchor it, what is her story going to do? Will it need to find a new Analogue?
In this setting, I don't think we're ever going to 'lose' the Miho type of a story... even if only to become an example of how not to live your life.
That's the point, actually. The Story is still there. Does it need an Analogue? If it can't have Miho, who will it take?

I really hope Kimiko doesn't have a heart attack mid-coitus.
Oooffff... That would indeed be 'awkw4rd'.. luckily congenital heart condition isn't contagious.... ?
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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by Invisigoth » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:15 pm

Liminaut wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:06 pm
cidjen wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:57 pm
Liminaut wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:24 pm
Without Miho to anchor it, what is her story going to do? Will it need to find a new Analogue?
In this setting, I don't think we're ever going to 'lose' the Miho type of a story... even if only to become an example of how not to live your life.
That's the point, actually. The Story is still there. Does it need an Analogue? If it can't have Miho, who will it take?

I really hope Kimiko doesn't have a heart attack mid-coitus.
Wait...this isn't the developmental notes page....

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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by cidjen » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:03 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:15 pm
Liminaut wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:06 pm
cidjen wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:57 pm


In this setting, I don't think we're ever going to 'lose' the Miho type of a story... even if only to become an example of how not to live your life.
That's the point, actually. The Story is still there. Does it need an Analogue? If it can't have Miho, who will it take?

I really hope Kimiko doesn't have a heart attack mid-coitus.
Wait...this isn't the developmental notes page....
We just let our imagination run wild :)

Seriously though, Kimiko is an actress. Maybe it will be enough for the Story to get a Primary One that would act it out, so that the Reality Anchor / Analogue does not have to do this for real any more. And the actress doesn't have to become the character, she just needs to play it out credibly enough.

Unlike Moeko, who never met Erika, Miho probably has little danger of going into a coma, because Kimiko did act it out, to what the audience experiences as the 'usual end'. That's more than Erika did for Moeko, like, ever.

But I think the ninjas are mistaken... The Story did not actually pause. It concluded as far as the Anchor and the Audience is concerned: someone 'died' - even if it was just a reenactment. That doesn't mean that the Reality Anchor is in any less danger from the fans though. But actually, she could live if no one ever recognised her ... It's the Actress and the Retelling of the Story (Sight) that is going to matter a lot.

Which makes me wonder what will Piro do, when he finally realises what is it he will be working on. He can affect the Retelling, he and the Actress can give it a different ending, that the fans will like more than the previous one...

Is that what the story Retellers do when they do a Retelling that is nothing like the Original? The entire industry built around giving people good endings where the originals did not have ones? Protecting the Reality Anchors?

That's one very long explanation for why The Dream Factories of Hollywood ever existed :)


Edit:
Although there is a flaw in the reasoning...

Kimiko knows the script. She knows the Story. And one of the other Retellings.
Piro does not know either. He may not realise what it is about until it's too late to change anything. Also it would not be up to him to make such changes, and neither can the Actress do anything about where it goes... I don't know what to think about that...
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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by cidjen » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:27 am

darrin wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:46 pm
Harry Potter wrote:That's not how responsibility works, Professor.... When you do a fault analysis, there's no point in assigning fault to a part of the system you can't change afterward, it's like stepping off a cliff and blaming gravity. Gravity isn't going to change next time. There's no point in trying to allocate responsibility to people who aren't going to alter their actions. Once you look at it from that perspective, you realize that allocating blame never helps anything unless you blame yourself, because you're the only one whose actions you can change by putting blame there.
(From Yudkovsky's Methods of Rationality; note that that chapter contains very severe spoilers, so if you haven't read the work yet and ever intend to, you might want to start at Chapter 1 instead. :D)
I think I can't agree with HP here though. Sure one can't blame gravity for falling off a cliff. But one can blame whomever role was to check the path was safe to trip on, or checking the guard rails, but failed to do so, out of their own will.
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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by arimareiji » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:04 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:15 pm
Liminaut wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:06 pm
cidjen wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:57 pm


In this setting, I don't think we're ever going to 'lose' the Miho type of a story... even if only to become an example of how not to live your life.
That's the point, actually. The Story is still there. Does it need an Analogue? If it can't have Miho, who will it take?

I really hope Kimiko doesn't have a heart attack mid-coitus.
Wait...this isn't the developmental notes page....
Well, at least no one's figured out yet that when Kimiko wakes up in the notspital years later as the new analog, Piro will have already sought comfort with Miho.

Because what we really need is another Kimi ga Nozomu Eien. :ph34r:
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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by cidjen » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:04 pm

arimareiji wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:04 am

Well, at least no one's figured out yet that when Kimiko wakes up in the notspital years later as the new analog, Piro will have already sought comfort with Miho.

Because what we really need is another Kimi ga Nozomu Eien. :ph34r:
Omg, I looked it up.

So you mean, this will be the end of Megatokyo: Season One ? :mrgreen:
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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by darrin » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:35 pm

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:38 pm
darrin wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:46 pm
Or will Foul Miho cloud Yakugashi's mind with more of her malignant misdirection? :lol:
Just look how many forumites over the years have been enthralled by Miho.
Ha, it has been nearly ten years but I think I still have my robe from the initiation ceremony around here somewhere.
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cidjen
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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by cidjen » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:28 pm

darrin wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:35 pm
Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:38 pm
darrin wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:46 pm
Or will Foul Miho cloud Yakugashi's mind with more of her malignant misdirection? :lol:
Just look how many forumites over the years have been enthralled by Miho.
Ha, it has been nearly ten years but I think I still have my robe from the initiation ceremony around here somewhere.
OOooooohhhhh shiny....

I mean, THE GREATER REFORMED MIHO GOOD !

side note : do I have to have a login for the old forums to be able to see something else but the stickies there in SD ? I kinda sometimes would like to see the legendary stuff, but the old forum only shows me the 3 top stickies and nothing else...
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paarfi
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Re: [1515] Reset?

Post by paarfi » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:13 pm

cidjen wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:28 pm
side note : do I have to have a login for the old forums to be able to see something else but the stickies there in SD ? I kinda sometimes would like to see the legendary stuff, but the old forum only shows me the 3 top stickies and nothing else...
The posts are filtered by default to only show those that have been active in the last 30 days. Just change the filters at the bottom.
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