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[1512] Which one

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by iffy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:31 pm

darrin wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:48 pm
Last panel of 1210
I forgot she calls him that in 1210 at the end, I remember pointing that out at some time. Still, there is that all caps font thing problem in comic. Although in comic it doesn't look like a 0 to me, it looks like an o instead, but that doesn't prove anything really does it.

As far as the transcripts, I don't know if the person transcribing the comic thought it was m0h the same as the chat handle and so just wrote it down that way in the transcript, or if they were told it was that, or what. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I think a lot of that work was Paarfi's. The point being the transcripts aren't particularly confirmation, if the only source is comic and perception, since the comic text is all caps comic font stuff.

Whyever an RP game character would call another character a leetish name when talking to somebody else about it. In Endgames, even Largo's was Largo. Why wouldn't Miho's be Moh.

Either way, I personally don't consider the transcripts reverse proof or whatever we might call it. Like if a dyslexic transcriber called them Hom and Hteogorip and Ogral. lol I have no idea if anyone ever asked Fred or he's ever looked at the transcripts for such things.

Who knows, maybe their names are actually pir0g0eth and m0h and larg0 in Endgames. But that somebody transcribed one as m0h doesn't necessarily prove that it is, even if nobody bothered to establish it was or not.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by darrin » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:18 pm

iffy wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:31 pm
As far as the transcripts, I don't know if the person transcribing the comic thought it was m0h the same as the chat handle and so just wrote it down that way in the transcript, or if they were told it was that, or what.
The anecdote I recall (presumably from old forum discussion but I don't remember where or from how long ago, sorry) is that a character would go for years without a name, and then one day Fred would tell the transcript people "Oh, his name is Flabbanabba" and they would go back and edit in the name from whatever placeholder had been in use previously ("third tall guy on the left").
Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I think a lot of that work was Paarfi's. The point being the transcripts aren't particularly confirmation,
I was under the impression that paarfi was responsible for the recent work and cleanup, and that the original work was done by Ray Kremer and Kalium. So possibly not as much confirmation as if they had been hand-crafted by Fred, but significantly more I would say than if they were the work of a random fan unconnected with Fred.
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by cidjen » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:40 pm

darrin wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:13 pm

I have to ask though, why does "most people" have to be the threshold here? What possible positive outcome could posting 1513-relevant material in the 1512 thread (again, in the period before 1513 has shown up on megatokyo.com itself) ever have, to weigh against the negative outcome of spoiler material potentially reaching folks who would have otherwise chosen to avoid it?
That was kind of the point I tried to make; as to why 'most people' well I can't talk on behalf of anyone but myself, I am glad you think similarly;

Iow, it's up to the potential posters to make a new thread appear here...

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by BakaJedi » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:21 am

shadowrider wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:10 pm
:ninja:
Ouch! Look at Piro's back> I suppose he might need some help getting the shards picked out and cleaned. I'm surprised it didn't bleed through to his shirt much.
Yes, Kimiko has given Piro an choice. Let go of Miho, and attempt for whatever relationship there was left, or move on and so that he could have an relationship with Kimiko perhaps. Either way something is going to get burned in the midst.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by iffy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:43 am

darrin wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:18 pm
The anecdote I recall (presumably from old forum discussion but I don't remember where or from how long ago, sorry) is that a character would go for years without a name, and then one day Fred would tell the transcript people "Oh, his name is Flabbanabba"
Many years ago there was something like that iirc. That a few don't have a name, then one is invented just so there could be something in transcript. Which kind of also shows the checking and level of involvement I suppose. I dimly remember Miho's character had no name, Fred was poked and one showed up in comic after they'd already been using a placeholder they came up with. But that's probably an incorrect memory or a guess made real-ish in the mind by time.
I was under the impression that paarfi was responsible for the recent work and cleanup, and that the original work was done by Ray Kremer and Kalium. So possibly not as much confirmation as if they had been hand-crafted by Fred, but significantly more I would say than if they were the work of a random fan unconnected with Fred.
Ray and Kal sounds right about before. I'd imagine an adherent of the chat handle (which I guess at the time was probably the default use, what the character was referred to in the irc and so on) just put it in transcripts like that before and after being actually named.

Which most of that is just more rememberingish guessing and such. Although it does sort of support the idea though that being in transcript isn't necessarily significant, that what to use wasn't for sure given to them or derived with feedback from the naming source. That they had been thinking of the name or got used to using it as a placeholder and continued. Which even still doesn't fit an FRP scenario much, and doesn't apparently match the style of anyone else's names in game, Pirogoeth, Largo, Sunay, ?. But in this case (and I'm vaguely remembering this following argument too) besides the game type and other people's names suggesting it, 1210 does name him as MOH in dialog. Which appears to be all letters.

If there was no direct input from Fred at the time to set the name one way or the other, it was just decided by transcribers (involved with MT or not, fan or not) who don't necessarily have any more insight than anyone else. Sadly, if the name ever was officially one thing or another around 29 May 2009, that was never established then. Maybe there will be a clarification of what the character name is, now, or if whatever was used before being ever correct then. What it was meant to be but never was.

Who knows, maybe in 1210 PIROGOETH called him MOH as a term of endearment. Like in 1211 the use of the name RO-TAN. Versus the chat log in 1235 it is clearly piro and m0h, or as Yutaka says MOH and in transcript is moh. Which is another thing about the transcripts, they're not fully consistent. What is in transcript for any given comic only directly confirms visibly what the transcribers used in the transcript for that comic. Perhaps none of what's anywhere in the mini-endgames explanation artwork or comic transcripts is the actual name of Miho's Endgames character.

I agree though, whatever it is or is not in either comic or transcript, it could still be M0H (or m0h or moh or Moh or whatever) and also no matter if what it actually is would fit the genre and milieu or not.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by Ningen » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:32 pm

I agree with Darrin. Keep the comments on each strip (preview or complete) in the thread for that strip. That way people can easily decide whether or not to peek ahead of what they can see.
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by iffy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:53 pm

Image . Image

In the first image the last three panels of 1210 have a variation in the O at times in MOH NOT OFF but they also appear to be all be letters.

In the second image, comparisons to a number of O and 0 ( O and 0) from various other comics. Often elite is in another font (or in the case of H3RO appears to be a letter when compared to TO). There is a difference even if slight when they're used in the same panel/dialog bubble, as seen in ALMOST 11:00 270 SECONDS WRONG J00

I would think it's more like how some fonts use the same thing for 1 and l rather than there being a conspiracy to ensure her/his actual name remains not fully explained.... But taking only the comic where the name is used, it's pretty clear it's all letters like everyone else's Endgames names appear to be. Which makes the other use incorrect, although if the only official anything is story comic, all things from elsewhere aren't useful in establishing things anyway.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by cidjen » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:41 pm

In 1340 it is definitely spelled M zero H. Since Mugi knows Miho's Avatar and handle and username in Endgames, it seems fitting that she used that as the handle to describe her in her phone....

In 1205 you have MOH and other kinds of 'oh' side by side with same font.

IMO tis obviously spelled M Oh H in game to be used as a name, but the chat handle or username could be m zero h
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by iffy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:41 pm

It's been pretty plainly showing m0h for in-MT communications for quite a while, IRC, phonecalls, etc. 1340, 1235, 1030, 991 Not too much doubt or inconsistency there that's correct it's m0h. Given all the rest, pretty closely as good as it gets that in game it was Moh and otherwise is using the wrong form. Not that it necessarily matters other than for clarity, but around MT you never know.

But yes the intervention by Kimiko, the going over the portfolio thing, etc, right! When early 1205 Piro mistakenly/accidentally/fortuitously refers to Miho as Moh in his gibbering, about the embarrassing to him aspects of leaving pictures on the device, along with some creative (apparently, as we later find out 1235 1319 etc) explanation of their content. Well, he is usually somewhat shy and reserved about his more risqué art, like when Yuki isn't yet the MG she doesn't know she is, and is looking at the great art in the horrible bag. Of if looking at it some other way, so-so art in a great bag. Which of course Kimiko isn't apparently much concerned about those details he's not at all (much less smoothly) trying to cover and not deal with, she already knows he's not just been born or left a monastery. Or is particularly expressive of such things or events 987 988 or otherwise. They're working on this all together anyway 1281, so whatevs to her. Although equally probably obviously eavesdropper spy Yuki gets all freaked out and starts jumping to what might be called somewhat naïve conclusions.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by darrin » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:06 pm

cidjen wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:41 pm
In 1340 it is definitely spelled M zero H. Since Mugi knows Miho's Avatar and handle and username in Endgames, it seems fitting that she used that as the handle to describe her in her phone....
But that is specifically Miho's handle, whereas iffy I believe is asking whether it can be confirmed or not that the Endgames character had that same name (or if that is just yet another forum assumption).
In 1205 you have MOH and other kinds of 'oh' side by side with same font.
Sorry, not seeing any uses of either in 1205; are you thinking of a different strip?
EDIT Whoops, sorry, I do see now the little "moh" there in the middle of his tiny-font talk in the first bubble. (Thanks iffy for mentioning that when ninja-posting me.) I do note though that the transcript also appears to have "moh" (letter not zero), even though this is clearly discussing Miho's handle rather than the Endgames character name, and even though (as you and iffy both point out) Miho's handle is pretty clearly established as "m0h" (zero not letter) in multiple other places in the comic.EOEDIT
IMO tis obviously spelled M Oh H in game to be used as a name, but the chat handle or username could be m zero h
It does occasionally happen that a typo made in the comic is corrected in the transcript, but the comic iteself is not necessarily corrected. The most recent one I can think of is 1481; Megumi says in the comic
Megumi wrote:<This maiden can't wait to show you her steamy appreciation
with no period or closing ">". The transcript correctly has ".>". (Admittedly finding other such examples e.g. through search ninja :ninja: would be incredibly difficult so the best "evidence" here is likely to be no better than anecdotal.)

Is it likely Fred would make such an error in an actual character name? Perhaps not; if you'd said "most likely" or even "almost certainly" I probably would have kept my mouth shut. I'm just not sure it crosses the threshold of "obviously"; as far as I could tell (again domo arigato search ninja) we only have the one example, and the most we can say is there's a discrepancy between comic and transcript in that one instance. (I had pretty much convinced myself that the comic text in 1210 looks more like an O than a zero, even before iffy's very clever O-vs-0 montage.)

EDIT2:
It occurs to me on further reflection that there is a possibly simpler explanation that covers the facts observed so far. It avoids the assumption that Fred made a typo in 1210; it does add the assumption that the transcript for 1210 is correspondingly incorrect, and possibly other complicating assumptions, so "possibly simpler" is maybe subjective.

First, times when someone said or wrote m0h (with a zero): seven hits. The first six of these (991, 998, 1016, 1030, 1046, 1048) are clearly written uses of Miho's online handle. The seventh (1210) is the transcript rendering as "m0h" of what appears more likely in comic to be "moh", Pirogoeth saying the name out loud.

Next, times when someone said or wrote moh (with a letter): three hits. The first is clearly an unrelated false positive (Yuki says, in English, "Good mohningu!" because Japanese lacks the r-controlled vowels so characteristic of English :lol: and because I don't know how to tell the search ninjas that I want a word boundary (like slash b in grep or perl ;))). 1205 is Piro's spoken use of Miho's handle (recorded elsewhere, as in the above hit list, as "m0h"). 1235 is a similar instance of Yutaka pronouncing out loud Miho's handle. (I note here with some amusement that the irc logs visible in the comic, which clearly use "m0h", are not rendered in the transcript at all, in contrast to 991 and 998, which is why those two show up in the first list above but 1235 does not.)

This is explained easily if a) the handle used by Miho and her Endgames character are the same, "m0h", and b) when people are pronouncing this in speech (as opposed to it being written) it is rendered simply as "moh". This means my poo-pooing a few posts back, of the idea that the transcript was mistaken, would be off the mark, and that the comic has no typo here.

Unfortunately this puts us back to square one for iffy's question, because the observed facts are also explained by the (only slightly more complicated) hypothesis that a) Miho uses "m0h" for her handle, and "moh" for the Endgames character; and b) people pronounce both as "moh". Again the main issue is that we have only the one instance where someone appears to be using the Endgames character's name (Pirogoeth in 1210).

(There is of course a third possibility, that the Endgames character has some name entirely different from "m0h"/"moh", and Piro in his excitement just typed "m0h" or "moh" into whatever passes for a character-to-character chat window (there presumably must be such a thing in some form, we see characters "talking" to each other all the time in the Endgames strips) instead of the player-to-player chat window (or external chat program if Endgames didn't provide such a thing itself). If he suspected the character collapse was related in some form to the health issues of the player he was already aware of, it would be a pretty understandable mistake. I consider this more complicated than the first two possibilities but not so ridiculously complicated as to be able to rule it out out of hand.)

A major problem is that we may never get a suitable answer to iffy's question, unless Fred decides someday to show a flashback not just to in-game Endgames proceedings, but to Piro himself sitting at a computer playing the game, and with character speech or character-to-character chat rendered in some visible + legible way.

Sorry for the length of this. :oops: If you made it this far cookies are on me.
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by NinjaDefenestrator » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:18 am

We...could just ask Fred? It’s a minor detail, not a significant plot point.

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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by cidjen » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:58 am

darrin wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:06 pm
Unfortunately this puts us back to square one for iffy's question, because the observed facts are also explained by the (only slightly more complicated) hypothesis that a) Miho uses "m0h" for her handle, and "moh" for the Endgames character; and b) people pronounce both as "moh". Again the main issue is that we have only the one instance where someone appears to be using the Endgames character's name (Pirogoeth in 1210).
I like/lean towards this actually, it is simple but elegant (and 1205 is the other instance of such usage of 'moh') :)
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by darrin » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:00 pm

NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:18 am
We...could just ask Fred? It’s a minor detail, not a significant plot point.
:roll: Ha, like Kirk said in Star Trek II, "You may ask, Lieutenant." :lol:
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by paarfi » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:54 pm

NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:18 am
We...could just ask Fred? It’s a minor detail, not a significant plot point.
I've been letting this just go. I appreciate a good nerd argument, and I know how fun they can be. Sometimes the arguing is more fun than knowing the real answer, and I try to be sensitive to that. But as NinjaDefenestrator points out, this is kind of a minor point, and I think y'all have run this into the ground about as far as it can be run.

It's m0h, per Word of Fred. If he screwed up early on and wrote it as moh sometimes, then that kind of thing happens. Maybe we can pretend that was just the way they were pronouncing it. Or maybe Fred will pull a rabbit out of his behind someday and find some magical way to explain it with a future plot twist. But just to settle things here for everybody, it is m0h. :D
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by cidjen » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:17 pm

paarfi wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:54 pm
NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:18 am
We...could just ask Fred? It’s a minor detail, not a significant plot point.
I've been letting this just go. I appreciate a good nerd argument, and I know how fun they can be. Sometimes the arguing is more fun than knowing the real answer, and I try to be sensitive to that. But as NinjaDefenestrator points out, this is kind of a minor point, and I think y'all have run this into the ground about as far as it can be run.
Wait what... not allowed to run it down to the center of the Earth ....?
Bueeeh....
:)
Someone had a fun sig text here, something about Occam's razor and tinfoil hats... can't remember who ;) seems like a perfect fit.
It's m0h, per Word of Fred. [...]
But just to settle things here for everybody, it is m0h. :D
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Re: [1512] Which one

Post by iffy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:58 pm

darrin wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:06 pm
But that is specifically Miho's handle, whereas iffy I believe is asking whether it can be confirmed or not that the Endgames character had that same name (or if that is just yet another forum assumption).
Not so much asking as pointing out what's likely and fits. That is, our available "evidence" in comic is that her chat handle is m0h and the Endgame's character name is Moh. The chat handle isn't a point of contention, and there are (thanks to everyone) two uses of MOH in comic with what is pretty clearly letters, even if only one of them clearly refers to the Endgames character.

Beyond that, the setting of the game and the way the players treat it almost precludes the use of leet or handles, which also makes it seem that Pirogoeth and Largo (the Legionnaire) would have treated such as immersion-breaking never-do-this perfidy if somebody showed up with such a name. (You are the mighty and powerful wizard Tholth, ruler of your domain and all its lands! And Bӭtmnsӝy McSnǟgglebǟgs the thief wants ta join yer group to farm much phat loots lool.)
It does occasionally happen that a typo made in the comic is corrected in the transcript, but the comic itself is not necessarily corrected.
Yeah, when they're clearly misspelled or missing words or lacking punctuation in comic, obvious errors would get corrected as they're transcribed from comic. Sometimes the comics themselves get changed or cleaned up for these and other reasons, sometimes quickly when it's a larger issue. This case isn't quite that. Creating a name for the transcript when there wasn't one originally and continuing to use it, especially when comic is sparse or unclear on the spelling, stemming from all-caps font. That's no bad on the transcribers, and in this case it is not clearly or obviously an error in that comic dialog. Piro says Moh perhaps as a spoken version of the chat handle, a confused utterance of Miho's name, an interchangeable word used as a nickname, and yes a typo that was meant to be Miho.

But continuing on with that 'who knows what the name really is' thing, what Piro says in 1205 could be saying that chat handle out loud, might not be referring to the character. Or maybe he is and calling her by the character name or nickname. Just like in 1210 likewise Pirogeth might be 'normalizing' the chat handle, or like he calls her Ro at some point, Moh might be a nickname anyway. Perhaps even that whole scene we see in art is a analogy for Piro talking to Miho when she's "sick" at "hospital".
It occurs to me on further reflection that there is a possibly simpler explanation that covers the facts observed so far. It avoids the assumption that Fred made a typo in 1210; it does add the assumption that the transcript for 1210 is correspondingly incorrect, and possibly other complicating assumptions, so "possibly simpler" is maybe subjective.
Talking about the usages is good, but that's another issue really, because when Yutaka says m0h out loud, it's like lots of ELITE and said out loud as if there weren't purposeful misspelling and use of numbers in place of letters. (except for like the gag on the plane where they need somebody that speaks leet)

Writing Moh and having it in all caps and more difficult to transcribe isn't exactly a typo, but it would explain the transcribers being in error, especially if earlier on there was no prior usage and no guidance. After all, really we have the same issue with 1205 and 1210, we have to 'translate' the all caps MOH into a context. We are pretty sure it's not pir0g0eth and larg0 which seems it would make it not m0h either. It's being used as a name, which Moh fits everyone else's names. Even if neither 1205 and 1210 are actually anyone calling the character by name, and whatever is in the transcripts or not.
A major problem is that we may never get a suitable answer to iffy's question, unless Fred decides someday to show a flashback not just to in-game Endgames proceedings, but to Piro himself sitting at a computer playing the game, and with character speech or character-to-character chat rendered in some visible + legible way.
We'd guess if it wasn't an issue to fix then, and not a concern, who'd remember now. Indeed, if the character had no name for most of its existence, there might have been no answer until Piro says Moh (for whatever reason) in 1205. Perhaps that was a clear answer, and again in 1210, but nobody foresaw the caps issue. No checks for errors in transcription or checking the transcript matched something that was potentially only first established in those two comics. Which is also rather to say an answer now wouldn't be the same thing as an answer then, whatever it was or is. And of course, the confusion then might have been on purpose, which would mean an answer now might be more confusion on purpose. Although perhaps that's at least unfair, unduly pessimistic, paranoid and jaded.
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NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:18 am
We...could just ask Fred? It’s a minor detail, not a significant plot point.
That's true, maybe it would be 'What, I have the name Moh in comic twice!' ;)

If he or anyone remembers "the original name" at whatever point there was one, who knows, but IMO that doesn't seem like something anyone would have on their radar. It's Miho's character in Endgames, whatever its name, we know who it is. Although if Pirogoeth has a name, and of course Largo, why not Moh. But yes if it's minor, it's likely not important. Indeed how it is in the transcripts seems the only place it was and maybe that name was mostly alway up to the transcribers, be that the original ones or the later fixer uppers or both. I don't think it was anything predetermined beforehand or involving Fred. Perhaps if that's true, the people to ask about it would be the original transcribers. Although we'd likely need the original transcriptions and any information on if anything official was ascertained about what to call those who were unnamed.

Which as far as I can see, currently the first usages of naming the character are only in the transcripts, so there is no use in comic to know what or if there was a name to know. The transcripts don't use an FRP sort of name, but I guess a placeholder, what turns out later to be the chat handle? Originally in 2001 and 2002 what if anything those transcripts had or not I have no idea. But currently they are as can be seen in we have met the enemy and the taste of failure

Although if we were fixing things in retrospect (not that it matters or is worth it) it would seem preferable those and any others missed and still incorrect would have the characters as Largo and Moh and Pirogoeth. For that matter, the transcript in 1205 should probably start out capitalized where it's not for example.

< Oh! Right! My Laptop!! When she told me about all those embarrassing pictures someone posted I figured Moh must have had them on her laptop like so many stupid people do and shouldn't have and maybe it got stolen or she lost it which made me wonder what happened to my laptop which I hadn't seen in a while and even though there isn't anything embarrassing on here I just suddenly got really worried that Largo- >

Although that's really only helpful in establishing that in 1205 he's talking about Miho, who played Moh, and that Moh in 1205 is one of: the spoken version of m0h the chat handle, simply a nickname, him calling her as the Endgames character's name. Or yes even if that Moh was supposed to be Miho there. But again, the transcripts, helpful and in such good shape mostly that they are, aren't necessarily the definitive answer for all things regardless of how correct and consistent they are or not.


cidjen wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:58 am
(and 1205 is the other instance of such usage of 'moh') :)
Which given that Piro is apparently referring to Miho herself there, isn't as clear as it could be. Other than it's looks to be all letters.


paarfi wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:54 pm
It's m0h, per Word of Fred. If he screwed up early on and wrote it as moh sometimes, then that kind of thing happens. Maybe we can pretend that was just the way they were pronouncing it. Or maybe Fred will pull a rabbit out of his behind someday and find some magical way to explain it with a future plot twist. But just to settle things here for everybody, it is m0h. :D
Although normally all that is official is what's in story comic, which is clearly MOH. Or maybe that doesn't matter, as we've been discussing.

Certainly the 'story comic thing only' isn't always true, and the name is just messed up in a bunch of places. After all, it's in transcript as the chat handle a long while ago, as we saw.

Where's the WoF from, did he tell you that the Endgames character name is officially m0h? I'm surprised Pirogoeth and Largo would have let him in the party with a game name like that. Or that we didn't get a forum appearance spelling it out, although given this discussion, maybe that's not so surprising it wasn't posted here.

But if Fred just confirmed the Endgames character is named m0h who are we to argue.

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