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[1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by Hetz » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:13 pm

It seems Precociousness has won this round at least. Though I am wondering what would happen if Yaku meets a Ninja with Precociousness.

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by iffy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:31 pm

:ninja: Is Miho an Anthropomorphic Personification? Perhaps she's just an Unbuilt Trope. Or is that the same thing.... perspective-wise.

This may not be valid much, but to copy something from TVT there are three tiers of three weights each that characters might potentially be in. Some in MT are pretty clearly in one tier most if not all of the time (even if we don't know which particular weight in the tier they're mostly in or seem to be in) while others (such as Piro Largo Miho Yuki Kimiko Erika Meimi Junpei Kenji Mugi Yaku Ed Dom Ibara) might be in the high end of one tier or low end of another somewhere, or even move around between them. Sometimes, or all the time, depending on who they are. We might suppose Miho is often in the last one but sometimes in the first, be that for story or otherwise. Same with, Largo and Piro, at times moving between the mid and last perhaps. It isn't clear if anyone is ever in the very last weight in the last tier, or if indeed there are, or if there's more than one of them too, and if we've even seen them directly ever.

Muggle tier : Fragile Muggle Iron
Super tier : Abnormal Super Hyper
Cosmic tier : World Cosmic Author

And of course, it's entirely possible some look to be somewhere in there, but that's only what they want you to think..... :ninja:

.
Heywulf wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:56 pm
Yaku orders Junpei-ninja to take her to the presence of Miho...who we last saw at his ninja family's compound... Miho being busy avoiding breaking a very obsessed ninja-family guard.
Which could just as well be Grandma as be anyone else. Yet Miho's not supposed to contact anyone, which probably means not be contacted by anyone, and who knows how bad that might get back home when it's Junpei arriving with not just somebody clearly neutral and harmless, but a coercive fox human youngster miffed about her mom and aunt and who doesn't apparently know much of anything about what' s going on. Whoever that is back at the compound with Miho, it might not turn out well for anyone. But Miho is the one who's relatively powerless, fearful, and hiding for her very existence, yes?
Why does Yaku need to confer with Miho?
Blames Miho for this, thinks Miho can fix something, wants to yell at Miho. Or is just the person who's always doing annoying things to the her mom, and now to her aunt. Seems a rather strange thing to want to go do right now, but I guess we could say Yaku has noticed something wrong. (Maybe somebody might say something like 'oh great another yuki messing everything up')
Miho has been called 'the real thing' by some observers who might be crazy enough to know.
Crazy observers, who then seem to promptly fall under the same spell that's so powerful apparently even Miho falls under it? How many if any like her are in MT. Whatever an Analogue or the real thing or a source/the source/sources actually is.

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by Invisigoth » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:51 pm

There are enough Character Analogues to justify the TPCD maintaining an entire shadow world wing of a major hospital (the ASF) just to provide support to the ones who die regularly.

IIRC Fred once made a comment about having various characters like Duke Nukem and Solid Snake make cameo appearances in the ASF

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by paarfi » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:19 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:51 pm
There are enough Character Analogues to justify the TPCD maintaining an entire shadow world wing of a major hospital (the ASF) just to provide support to the ones who die regularly.
Yup. And it makes sense. Miho's tragic dying girl who never loved is hardly the only story out there in need of an analogue.
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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by DrunkenSailor » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:32 pm

One big complication in MT is that Miho is a character analog an sometimes gets involved in scenario's that cause her to act in ways her characters need her to act. Ways unnatural for her self. She warned Piro of this the yesterday morning when he found her in his apartment. And others seem to get drawn into these scenarios.

I bring this up because, just how old do Miho's stories get? Do her characters need to be Manga/Anime/Game types or do they just need to be doomed or in great peril of death?

Miho has the Big Cool Guy's Ninja hoodie, making her Little Purple(haired) Ninja Hood, and Junpei is now being coerced into becoming Big Cool Riding Ninja by the Little Bossy Wolf. And she' wants him to take her to grandma's house. Even though she was told to stay where she was and take care of her sick mom.

Fred once again taking the elements and cliches of a classic story and giving them a good shuffle?

This cannot end well.

And I'm out of coffee.

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by Invisigoth » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:17 pm

It could be worse....

This afternoon Fred said that if I were allowed to write then Megumi would have Piro and Kimiko trussed up to the ceiling of their room while she asked them which leather costume she should wear

That would, of course, be AWESOME...

But yes, DS, you've seen the pattern and I assure you it will end well indeed. Of course you need to reference my prior comment to establish context to understand what I mean by ending well

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by mistersaxon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:19 am

I guess Yaku blames Miho for her mum being in the hospital? That's . . . . fair, actually.
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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by cidjen » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:54 am

DrunkenSailor wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:32 pm
[...]

I bring this up because, just how old do Miho's stories get?

[...]
Looks like, by Miho's own words, literally NEVER.

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by iffy » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:07 pm

Do Analogues have stories, or do stories have Analogues? One to one, one to many, or many to many. None of the above.

If stories come about on their own in a world even without Analogues to create them, if imagination can exist without Muses to spark them, and so on, perhaps if a personification of a natural process exists, it stems in reverse from distilling the power of what has already been created. Similarities, or deriving from something earlier or later somehow, in what strength and direction. Can it be traced back and is it like something else, or did neither have much to do with the creation of the other, or can't be traced back because it's not close enough to anything else or it gets lost in the details?

A wiki definition of Analogue has these directions both, and more, as 'an individual motif, character, scene, event or phrase which resembles one found in another work, or a work which resembles another in terms of one or more motifs, characters, scenes, phrases or events'.

Yet still, appearances can be deceiving, and resemblances may be purely coincidental.

With the answers being perhaps dependent upon context, such as if the subject is collapsing from some known or unknown illness or is tearing apart a building and royally trouncing a number of superheroes. Maybe as the subject is bemoaning either the fate or the lack of it with equal aplomb, even doing so concurrently. In the middle of things with not much solid reference to balance against, such things are difficult to say with any certainty.

To take essentially the intros to a few of TVT edited and ask how much might the real thing be like any of them.
-- The living (roughly humanoid) embodiment of a fundamental abstraction. They may be god-like in power, but have a much narrower focus.
-- They all have an earliest example of a sort, but we often don't know what work they're from. Often doubles as the maker - but not always, and far less often with ancient ones, which often evolved over a long period of time rather than suddenly bursting forth from someone's head, fully formed. When they're distinct, a maker differs, in that the other becomes an example only in retrospect.
-- A work that seems like a deconstruction but is actually the maker itself, in many cases even the codifier that popularized it, and often misblamed for any current saturated use.

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by Invisigoth » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:51 pm

Character Analogue is a sort of Newspeak term like "Collateral Damage" , "Enhanced Interrogation" or "Extraordinary Rendition"

It doesn't mean what you think that it means

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by cidjen » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:57 pm

If the Analogue of the Story itself is a Trope, or a story, I wonder, what will it turn out to be ... As the Story has previously been (by her own words) told by many who remembered her, and then by those, who did not. She is mortally afraid of anybody piecing together any part of her 'real' story. So much so that she goes right down to lying to people about it many times, layer upon layer, confusing the hell out of everybody who ever tried to know who she really is. But to be able to do that efficiently, she has to be really very self-concentrated, otherwise she risks spilling out too many clues of the Real Story. So much so that she can't see other people seeing someone in the Story that they could care about, and not just for the reason she thinks so (my story is awful and people only like it because I die at the end). It takes a blow to the heart to try to convey to her, that people actually can see something else than she's trying to tell them (What about, what happens to you, in his story?). That there are other stories. We shall see, whether this is enough to change the story enough to reach an ending that she would like. And someone like an Actor, to channel the sadness of the story ending, making the players/audience experiencing it, to want to make better choices next time, to avoid this ending.

There are other examples of such construct in other stories. It's not deception. It's make-believe. It's ... it's theater. Ever wondered how the actors can take it, they are, they live one character one day, or for several days, they repeat the story to show it to the recipients - and then on another set they are , they live another character... and then we watch an interview with them on TV (i watched Gary Oldman on a video podcast a couple of days ago, as he talked about his characters that he played), and they joke about how they actually became all these characters, how they came to play them so convincingly. How they interact with the story production teams, the directors, the writers to make us believe the story, make the story believable. But us, the audience, we don't know about that side of the story telling, until the story itself is told and retold, and screened and displayed.

Do real actors too, sometimes can't stand being their characters? Sure they can be sometimes slightly unable to play them ... especially if they are inexperienced... but the best actors actually IMO savor and boast (publicly) (or give suble hints about, or drop allusions the size of elephants) about their ability to play, to tell any story, give live to any character they are ready to play. And yes, they'd probably tell you all about their favorite character. Good luck however trying to squeeze anything about any character they could have disliked. Or worse even, hated. At least that's what they tell us, the audience.

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by paarfi » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:55 am

Fred got started on the next comic next night. You can watch him draw it live on Twitch.
https://www.twitch.tv/fredrin
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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by iffy » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:31 am

On one hand, Miho's characters must die, apparently to keep the audiences happy, and in MT, to keep society itself stable; on the other hand, she herself is supposed to die here, which is either abnormal (the actress dying) or normal (this is just a character, not the actress); yet on that third hand, the supposed true story doesn't have her or her character dying, just everyone else. Then she moves between the extremes, from fragile to author and back (as far as anyone knows). All that layering confuses everyone including herself, but if what Ibara and Ed think about her is true, and from what we've seen of her interactions with them, her powers are so great they affect her as much as anyone. Does she even know the truth any more? Is there a truth to be had. Is it the real thing because it makes it all the truth, just not a solid one or the same for everyone. Those are the kinds of things we don't in story as of yet know.

Some of actors and actresses like or love, dislike or hate the characters they play. Others just forget them, even if the audiences don't. It depends on any number of things just like with the likes and dislikes of real people. Some old time ex vaudeville performers have later on hardly ever or never appeared out of character even in public, which is also what at least one of the cast of Gilligan's Island did. Other performers never take on a role again in public, or even lobby to or help the process of knocking off one or more of their characters so they don't ever have to think of them again. Sometimes if you watch interviews, you'll notice that a performer doesn't have a themselves, just one or more of their characters there talking to their interviewer, lots of comedic types it seems (Peter Sellers, Mike Meyers come to mind as probably two of the more extreme examples)

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by darrin » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:28 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:51 pm
Character Analogue is a sort of Newspeak term like "Collateral Damage" , "Enhanced Interrogation" or "Extraordinary Rendition"

It doesn't mean what you think that it means
Except nobody in the comic so far has actually used the phrase "character analogue". (Ibara just refers to Miho as an "analogue", and the Inspector just says that the "subject" (obviously Miho) was removed from an "analogue support facility".)

So I am rather doubtful it means what you think it means either, ;) not yet anyway.
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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by cidjen » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:13 pm

To me it looks, like it's implied a lot (at least it looks like) that Miho is an Analogue* of something or somebody/character. (*that feels to me more like a word 'Analogy' should be actually used... subtle difference but still... ) The word by itself doesn't mean much anything, without knowing what she is an Analogue ('analogy') of. She seems to be an Analogue (analogy?) of at least one character, or of a characters' story.
(That, or the term 'Analogue' has been redefined in the MT universe to mean a 'story/character analogy')
Ofc people who know what she is an Analogue of, can and do already shorten the term to just one word, because THEY know.

Edit: or maybe another way to describe this, an analogue is an analogy impersonated?

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by Invisigoth » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:01 pm

darrin wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:28 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:51 pm
Character Analogue is a sort of Newspeak term like "Collateral Damage" , "Enhanced Interrogation" or "Extraordinary Rendition"

It doesn't mean what you think that it means
Except nobody in the comic so far has actually used the phrase "character analogue". (Ibara just refers to Miho as an "analogue", and the Inspector just says that the "subject" (obviously Miho) was removed from an "analogue support facility".)

So I am rather doubtful it means what you think it means either, ;) not yet anyway.
You have no idea :|

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by Invisigoth » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:02 pm

darrin wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:28 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:51 pm
Character Analogue is a sort of Newspeak term like "Collateral Damage" , "Enhanced Interrogation" or "Extraordinary Rendition"

It doesn't mean what you think that it means
Except nobody in the comic so far has actually used the phrase "character analogue". (Ibara just refers to Miho as an "analogue", and the Inspector just says that the "subject" (obviously Miho) was removed from an "analogue support facility".)

So I am rather doubtful it means what you think it means either, ;) not yet anyway.
You have no idea :|

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by cidjen » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:33 am

"I can't "think" because I have been told. And now I have to shut up"

so you can't even tell us what she isn't ? :)

Must be a lot of weight then :) I feel optimistic about the story already :)

Yeah I have no idea :)

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by Rapierman » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:20 am

Young ladies should not treat ninjas like dogs. :P
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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by Invisigoth » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:46 am

cidjen wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:33 am
"I can't "think" because I have been told. And now I have to shut up"

so you can't even tell us what she isn't ? :)

Must be a lot of weight then :) I feel optimistic about the story already :)

Yeah I have no idea :)
oh that's not too hard,

Miho isn't a lesbian goth vampire magical girl

She's not any sort of magical girl at all

In fact girl is the only accurate thing there though she does like to use goth affectations

She's not evil either

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by paarfi » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:02 pm

cidjen wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:33 am
"I can't "think" because I have been told. And now I have to shut up"
Please, don't poke vis for inside info. :P The discussion is half the fun of MT, and that gets ruined fast if someone really does know the answers.

It's hard not to correct people when you know some of what Fred has planned. Vis shows some real restraint there (believe it or not). But it's easier if people don't try to tease it out of him. :) This is one of the reasons why I avoid knowing, and Fred has been very kind in trying to not spoiler things when I'm around.
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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by cidjen » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:15 pm

I did not mean to tease, sorry @Invisigoth :)

I instead let my imagination run wild (you must have noticed ;) )

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by Invisigoth » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:31 pm

paarfi wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:02 pm
cidjen wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:33 am
"I can't "think" because I have been told. And now I have to shut up"
Please, don't poke vis for inside info. :P The discussion is half the fun of MT, and that gets ruined fast if someone really does know the answers.

It's hard not to correct people when you know some of what Fred has planned. Vis shows some real restraint there (believe it or not). But it's easier if people don't try to tease it out of him. :) This is one of the reasons why I avoid knowing, and Fred has been very kind in trying to not spoiler things when I'm around.
Thanks paarfi.

Fact is that there's a very narrow range of things I can comment on so of course people think THAT is all I do.....

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by cidjen » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:06 pm

OMG. I hope you guys don't get upset at me, as it wasn't my intention to pull anything out of anyone with any kind of force...
I enjoy discussing as much as anyone - or I let my imagination run riot - definitely NOT in any intention to get any spoilers.
#serious.

(I believe I even inserted an appropriate emoji down the 'so you can't even tell us what she isn't >>>this one >>> :) <<<' phrase. I meant it to be a joke. )

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Re: [1506] Ninja vs Precociousness

Post by paarfi » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:35 pm

cidjen wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:06 pm
OMG. I hope you guys don't get upset at me
Not upset at all. :)
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