Welcome to the new MegaTokyo Forums! The old forums are available (in read-only mode) at http://archive.forums.megatokyo.com.

[1504] It wasn't for me

Moderators: Invisigoth, chemi

User avatar
darrin
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by darrin » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:57 pm

Sackett wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:21 pm
Well, the strongest evidence for Piro still loving Miho is Yuki sensing it (since it's strongly implied that as a magical girl she can tell when someone loves someone else - unless she is the target).
We've seen what she's capable of physically; what she's capable of in other areas has been left pretty much a complete mystery as far as I can see. The conversation with Miho on top of the telephone wires was oriented more toward the physical (leading up to the "monster" description), and the conversation with Meimi shortly after that when Yutaka was first hospitalized was almost deliberately ambiguous, basically only touching on the question of whether "magical girls" are even real or not (and how the fiction might differ from the reality).

Even if we assume magical girls in general are "supposed" to be able to tell such things, there are plenty of reasons why Yuki's particulars might be giving her a false positive here. She's young; she's inexperienced; she hasn't been formally trained yet; the "Piro" question is too close to her emotionally for her to be accurate; and so on and so on (for the first half to two-thirds of MegaTokyo, remember, pretty much everyone -- Mami, Asako, heck even Miho -- assumed that Yuki had a crush on Piro). Just going by the numbers, she has made relationship claims exactly twice so far: "Kobayashi-kum can't possibly like me", and "Piro loves Miho". That gives her at best a 50% track record; it has to be conceded that her "correctness" regarding Piro and Miho is at least up in the air. Otherwise it's a circular argument: we "know" she's right about Piro + Miho because magical girls are "always right" about such things, and we know Yuki is right about such things because hey, she "got" Piro + Miho correct.
Also, that bit about Kenji stopping Yuki from teleporting, it's pretty clear that he's just delaying her (which most people can do to Yuki by holding on tight) and using that delay to warn her about physical obstacles and dangers, which then makes Yuki think twice about trying to leap away.
Sorry I don't see that as "pretty clear" at all. The question here is how is he delaying her. Purely mundanely? Where is "most people" coming from here? Who besides Miho (and possibly Kenji here) ever attempted such a thing, let alone succeeded at "holding on" (ie grabbing her as opposed to being grabbed a la Yutaka) and stopping her when she is moving (or trying to move) at "super speed"? I did agree it was at least possible that Yuki is being "polite" in some sense (maybe she heard something in his tone of voice just before "leaping"), but for my money I still find it more likely that his "Now, now, none of that" implies she is actively trying to get away and he is somehow actively stopping her. The possibility that he is doing this in a completely mundane fashion I consider much more unsupported (given all the non-mundane things we've seen Yuki do so far).
Last edited by darrin on Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Avatar by Broken, I changed the book
My rescripts, now with little bits of commentary for each one

User avatar
iffy
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by iffy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:57 pm

I've probably re- re- written the same sorts of things so many times there can never be as much of it in the future as there was in the past. ;)

As for the triangle, Largo Piro, Miho. Look at the stories the guys tell to Erika and Kimiko, other things that have been discussed since and probably are still lurking. Yes, there was something back in the Endgame times certainly, in that it was "not real" and also that apparently Miho broke up the pair in game by focusing on Piro's character (which might make even more sense if you consider Largo's character wasn't going to create any offspring) and in real life with the more risk-taking and emotive (online at least) and interested in dating sims etc Piro. That for the most part all this interaction was not as immersive, frequent, complete or extensive as it might have been. The three separated by great distance, and it superficial enough for them all to apparently have forgotten about it all. But once remembering, being angry, to the point of violence over it, but not for a long while after getting back to it. Reminds me of her apologizing to Largo for not spending enough time messing with his mind instead of Piro's. There's two extenuating circumstances at least though. First, if Miho was looking for certain aspects to players in Endgames (say, those who might break her out of the cycle?) (assuming she actually is trapped and/or actually doesn't like it). Did it end because it didn't work, or because it did? Second, no matter how real and important, even if not part of some grand scheme, the behaviors and reactions and information we have suggest the casual online cyber sort of relationship was ended before it got to little more than affection or lust or manipulation or sympathy or whatever we might call it. Love, online, with somebody who horribly pushes away (and there seems as much him there as her, and throw in some other people as well), and then is forgotten, and later rejected even in person. Piro and Miho trying to trick or fool or understand the situation or each other now doesn't suggest much was ever there to get to, and it didn't get gotten to. Which besides, that's entirely another matter than if it will work out now with Kimiko or doesn't. We'll see how it goes, soon we might think.

The CoE people as the same types of eternal or resurrected people as the pirates decades or centuries ago is possible, but one would imagine Mugi isn't quite as much so as anyone else, given her family and familiarity with Erika/Kimiko. And Kenji just joined the mob of folks chanting etc. There are the people at the door when Ping and Junko get there, but not so much, and who is Waltah supposed to be. Seems like a total lack of information even greater than usual.

Yuki's feelings and ideas about what's going on should probably be at least somewhat tempered by her youth and inexperience, and by how MG tend to operate. The partial information she has from only one source or a single unmoving timeframe. Not that she's wrong, but it seems she's more so misidentifying the feelings and words of others. She leaves a broken Miho alone hiding so Kimiko can find her, on purpose or not caring or thinking it's going to be Piro or both Piro and Kimiko. Then goes to see Yutaka and mope or whatever, it appears. And now... Well she wouldn't be the first person in MT to learn a whole bunch of the things they thought were true were not really true or not at all true.

Oh and how did Kenji stop Yuki, he's forceful, used to working with Miho, an adult. Yuki is trespassing, been hiding a lot today. Oh and Yutaka has been captured etc. Of course Kenji stops her at first; she gets around to ignoring it all once she's certain she has figured it all out. Even though she's missing lots of information and perspective to make an informed decision she's perhaps incapable of logically & unemotionally making.
Last edited by iffy on Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
darrin
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by darrin » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:17 pm

iffy wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:57 pm
The CoE people as the same types of eternal or resurrected people as the pirates decades or centuries ago is possible, but one would imagine Mugi isn't quite as much so as anyone else, given her family and familiarity with Erika/Kimiko.
I never intended to include Mugi in that group. Yes, she's technically CoE "staff" in some form, but obviously the Sawataris are a whole different kettle of fox. I remember meaning to mention that in my post but evidently forgot; my apologies, and thanks for reminding me of the obvious exception.

EDIT:
And sorry, guys, but you are starting to push me from "polite disagreement" into the "calling bullshit" zone. :lol: The girl can yank a RAZ in her wake through spacetime without breaking a sweat. If mundanely being "forceful" and "holding on tight" were sufficient to keep her in place when she's got other places to be, then she would at this point still be in Yutaka's hospital bed, in the forcefullest and holding-on-tightest glomp in human history, on the receiving end of a return kiss that would curl her cute little toes. :lol:

More seriously, look again at the first two panels of 1224. In panel one he reveals they've "caught" Yutaka; then immediately after this in panel two, he says "Now, now, none of that", obviously in response to some kind of struggle on Yuki's part. Is she distraught enough to forget her abilities, and just trying to break away (on foot so to speak)? But then there would be no reason for Kenji to mention the "dangerous and hazardous things" she might run into (which he explicitly amplifies in the next strip they're in, 1227, as "stuff hanging from the ceiling"). So she's trying to zip away magically, yet he stops her with no visible exertion other than holding her shoulders. And again, nobody else has ever displayed the ability to pin a ninja girl or magical girl in place other than Miho.

Is Kenji "exactly the same" as Miho? Almost certainly not, of course. Are his "powers" (whatever they might be) at a comparable level to Miho's? I sincerely doubt it. Is his stopping Yuki here explainable (explained away :P) by purely mundane effort? Heck no.
Last edited by darrin on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Avatar by Broken, I changed the book
My rescripts, now with little bits of commentary for each one

cidjen
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Location: Love and Lies, Clannad, Air, Kanon, Mousou Telepathy, Love Hina, UQ Holder, Bleach, Negima, Naruto,
Contact:

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by cidjen » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:42 pm

Sackett wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:21 pm
Well, the strongest evidence for Piro still loving Miho is Yuki sensing it (since it's strongly implied that as a magical girl she can tell when someone loves someone else - unless she is the target).
To that, I could be prepared to say, Yuki senses feelings. Maybe she isn't able to exactly pinpoint *who* feels what and who 'feels what' towards who. (Ref. Kenji saying to her, "most of the fear you feel is not yours"). Maybe because she's too inexperienced as a Magical Girl...

User avatar
darrin
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by darrin » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:06 pm

cidjen wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:42 pm
To that, I could be prepared to say, Yuki senses feelings. Maybe she isn't able to exactly pinpoint *who* feels what and who 'feels what' towards who. (Ref. Kenji saying to her, "most of the fear you feel is not yours"). Maybe because she's too inexperienced as a Magical Girl...
Wa-hey, now there's an interesting thought that hadn't even occurred to me, thanks. :D

I thought it was Ursula K. LeGuin who had a story where the aliens used the same word for love and hate, implying or stating at one point that they were basically two sides of the same coin. I can't find a reference in google though. :( But the point is, at the time when Yuki claimed Piro still "loved" Miho, neither he nor Kimiko had yet heard any of the famous fragments of her backstory we have since seen; as far as Piro was concerned at the time, Miho had simply done something "stupid and harsh" to him, and he had no reason yet to start thinking any better of her (or her motives).

So maybe Yuki got the magnitude right, but the sign wrong. ;)

EDIT:
On the opposite side of the field, food for thought (which I found while searching for 1253 above, thank you search ninja) is Mugi's response when Yuki claims the converse, that "Miho loves Piro." I don't see any reason to doubt Mugi being a reasonably reliable observer when it comes to Miho, and her response is basically "No, she doesn't, and even if she ever did, it wouldn't matter / go anywhere." Even if Piro did "love" Miho in some form the probability of it being one-sided should at least be considered.
Avatar by Broken, I changed the book
My rescripts, now with little bits of commentary for each one

cidjen
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Location: Love and Lies, Clannad, Air, Kanon, Mousou Telepathy, Love Hina, UQ Holder, Bleach, Negima, Naruto,
Contact:

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by cidjen » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:11 am

Miho totally COULD HAVE loved Piro. Even if their conversations would have been pretty lewd near the end (ref. the MB articles, see when Yuki goes red reading the chat logs) that could have been due to both of them acting slightly out of character online. (ref. 'such a bold request was not like me'- Piro) If she did not love directly /him/, she could have loved the persona he made for himself. Herself being an experienced (centuries old? ) soul mixed with a teenage mind and infinitely respawning teen body... and him being the just-out-of-college young male, she could have been desperate for some out-of-character contact, and even slightly bend conveying to Piro, what was being said around her ('it was like everybody waited for you to die'). Mugi though, may be seeing Miho starting a fresh life after every respawn, and extrapolating that to 'that's not something she can do', aka carry over a relationship from one life to the next... if that makes sense?

User avatar
BetaCygnus
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Veenendaal, NL

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by BetaCygnus » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:30 am

Sareth wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:49 am
Beta:

I feel that we do ourselves a disservice as a society to somehow ignore it or treat it as something best kept not talked about.
I agree with you there, Sareth.
I’m just not convinced by the inline details of MT that Largo and Erika had sex during their night out.
At least, I do not explicitly read it anywhere — either in words or body language.

=)
— Member № 48735 · February 13, 2006 —

cidjen
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Location: Love and Lies, Clannad, Air, Kanon, Mousou Telepathy, Love Hina, UQ Holder, Bleach, Negima, Naruto,
Contact:

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by cidjen » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:49 am

@darrin : I'd say (as a non-native English speaker) the concept of 'nearly' the same word for love and hate isn't that far off (compare spelling of love vs loathe)....

User avatar
darrin
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by darrin » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:54 am

cidjen wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:49 am
@darrin : I'd say (as a non-native English speaker) the concept of 'nearly' the same word for love and hate isn't that far off (compare spelling of love vs loathe)....
Well (after a quick hop to google) those appear to have completely different Old English roots, so I would have to consider any similarities there to be accidental rather than an actual property of the language. But I'd say LeGuin's idea is an intriguing one at any rate.
Avatar by Broken, I changed the book
My rescripts, now with little bits of commentary for each one

User avatar
Invisigoth
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by Invisigoth » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:33 am

I'd say the opposite of love is indifference

cidjen
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Location: Love and Lies, Clannad, Air, Kanon, Mousou Telepathy, Love Hina, UQ Holder, Bleach, Negima, Naruto,
Contact:

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by cidjen » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:45 am

IMO Indifference is opposite both to love and loathe ;) It's a triad... (only it's sort of hard to spell in a short catchy phrase... I love you, I hate you... I 'meh' you ? )

User avatar
iffy
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by iffy » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:23 pm

There often aren't many differences to straight up 'strong emotions' but there's usually some noticeable difference between 'calm and contented' and 'filled with adrenaline and ready to do grievous bodily harm'. Likewise there should be something noticeable about it when a number of people are in competition with each other but are playing somewhat different games and a number of goals are not always in line with simply (or even) winning. Too, hesitant awkward sparring and droll irony isn't being on top of the train. So even if a great many people tend to love and hate somebody at the same time, when it's mostly one or the other it's usually pretty easy to notice the situations and behaviors being mostly one or the other.

Now back to Yuki at the CoE in chapter 10 ;)
darrin wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:17 pm
I never intended to include Mugi in that group. Yes, she's technically CoE "staff" in some form, but obviously the Sawataris are a whole different kettle of fox. I remember meaning to mention that in my post but evidently forgot; my apologies, and thanks for reminding me of the obvious exception.
Sure, I just wanted to cover those people working/worshiping/helping out/hanging around the CoE, not necessarily that you anyone else was suggesting them all, or as equal to each other. Which brings up a good point about whatever the makeup of those at the CoE, it doesn't seem all that cohesive in a lot of ways. Plus we are missing most any context on anyone. Another thing I wanted to cover was how easily Kenji seemed to just meld into the mindless horde, and that some of the CoE folks were demonstrably of a different cloth. Mostly though, it was that we can't really tell, knowing what little we know. Except they seem to all know a fair bit about Miho (some of which is actually true) in different ways. Whatever even that much tells us.
....{yuki} can yank a RAZ in her wake through spacetime without breaking a sweat. If mundanely being "forceful" and "holding on tight" were sufficient to keep her in place
I think my idea there was she might not have known she could, or didn't really much want to get away at this point. There was information for her to gather after all. Or even maybe the place has some sort of dampening field? But either way yes, it isn't really fully explained only by him being an adult and some sort of authority figure, or even her inexperience etc. Yet there are at least some clues she wasn't really trying to get away, in which case a stern adult with a heavy hand was at least enough to give the illusion of control. Short of her returning to the subject and explaining it, we probably won't know what if any of that might be the case.
he says "Now, now, none of that", obviously in response to some kind of struggle on Yuki's part.
That does pretty much prove he's got some chops there. Not as much proof that it was physically enough to lock her down, especially if she was "fully determined" to do otherwise. We might guess he wouldn't have been able to what he did (if there were no external forces helping or if she was clued in on what was going on and capable and willing at that time to do what she's done since) unless he had some powers of his own. It's possible he's got anti-magical-girl-powers of some sort, or is some immortal pirate raised from a fictional demise etc. Even though he seemingly blends into the horde so easily later, that is likely more about how powerful Miho is, and doesn't establish he's not more powerful than Yuki regardless.
Is she distraught enough to forget her abilities, and just trying to break away (on foot so to speak)?
Maybe. Or maybe she doesn't know yet she has more. Or she's tired after all she's done today. Or worried (somewhere inside her mind) about Yutaka. I'm guessing some mix of this place, the situation, her youth and inexperience. Probably some large part, consciously or not, was not really wanting to all that much. Or again, as we agree, it could be that he is able to somehow somewhat in some way lock down an MG.
But then there would be no reason for Kenji to mention the "dangerous and hazardous things" she might run into (which he explicitly amplifies in the next strip they're in, 1227, as "stuff hanging from the ceiling").
It was a rather odd thing to point out. Although Yuki kind of seemed to have ignored that. Later on, she's rather acting like she's there more because she wants it rather than they're capable of stopping her. Really, Yuki just mostly does whatever she wants to the whole time she's there, doesn't she?
We might say she gets Kenji to take her to Yutaka, then she's free to do more investigating with nobody looking for her. She's hostile and defiant in 1230, then gets on the laptop as soon as he leaves. Events and plans happen. In 1242/1243 she's certainly not worried about them, and they can't even try and stop her.
And again, nobody else has ever displayed the ability to pin a ninja girl or magical girl in place other than Miho.
Well technically Miho did more than pin in place, Miho first grabbing and stopping Yuki in-flight like that :)
Is Kenji "exactly the same" as Miho? Almost certainly not, of course. Are his "powers" (whatever they might be) at a comparable level to Miho's? I sincerely doubt it. Is his stopping Yuki here explainable (explained away :P) by purely mundane effort? Heck no.
If he powered her down with strength alone, it certainly establishes he's got at least power enough to do that, which isn't a baseline human thing. None of what Yuki did later establishes Kenji didn't somehow himself stop her in 1224 either.

User avatar
Sareth
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Idaho
Contact:

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by Sareth » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:53 pm

And now my brain is overflowing with story potential... Thanks darrin.
Maaaaaaan. Now I need to start winning posts again.

Read my fanfic: https://www.fanfiction.net/~bookah
Read my original fic: https://www.fictionpress.com/~bookah

User avatar
darrin
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by darrin » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:58 pm

Sareth wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:53 pm
And now my brain is overflowing with story potential... Thanks darrin.
Yeah, when I do a wall o' text, I like to put little sinkholes at the bottom of it so it topples over on anyone standing too close. 8-)
Avatar by Broken, I changed the book
My rescripts, now with little bits of commentary for each one

User avatar
GouryG
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by GouryG » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:06 pm

Peter wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:12 pm
GouryG wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:38 am
Ok, here's one topic nobody has touched on yet. By the catty reaction of the office girls do you get the impression that Kimiko has brought guys there in the past for a romantic rondevous?
Do you mean Megumi?
Oops yes I meant her, I got my characters mixed up
No Matter Where You Go, There You Are

cidjen
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Location: Love and Lies, Clannad, Air, Kanon, Mousou Telepathy, Love Hina, UQ Holder, Bleach, Negima, Naruto,
Contact:

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by cidjen » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:30 pm

darrin wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:06 pm
cidjen wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:42 pm
To that, I could be prepared to say, Yuki senses feelings. Maybe she isn't able to exactly pinpoint *who* feels what and who 'feels what' towards who. (Ref. Kenji saying to her, "most of the fear you feel is not yours"). Maybe because she's too inexperienced as a Magical Girl...
Wa-hey, now there's an interesting thought that hadn't even occurred to me, thanks. :D
[...]

So maybe Yuki got the magnitude right, but the sign wrong. ;)
[...]
There is further evidence to that : in the scene where she finally gets a(n) on screen drawing lesson, she thinks that Piro is sad... he has to correct, that it's not him, it's his characters that are sad. (https://megatokyo.com/strip/768)

Sackett
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by Sackett » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:13 am

cidjen wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:30 pm
darrin wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:06 pm
cidjen wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:42 pm
To that, I could be prepared to say, Yuki senses feelings. Maybe she isn't able to exactly pinpoint *who* feels what and who 'feels what' towards who. (Ref. Kenji saying to her, "most of the fear you feel is not yours"). Maybe because she's too inexperienced as a Magical Girl...
Wa-hey, now there's an interesting thought that hadn't even occurred to me, thanks. :D
[...]

So maybe Yuki got the magnitude right, but the sign wrong. ;)
[...]
There is further evidence to that : in the scene where she finally gets a(n) on screen drawing lesson, she thinks that Piro is sad... he has to correct, that it's not him, it's his characters that are sad. (https://megatokyo.com/strip/768)
Except that it's completely obvious that Piro is lying and that he is sad.

First, it's obvious in the actual comic, just look at Piro's body language.

Second, from the whole comic it's obvious that Piro has been feeling sad and empty for a long time, and that he dragged Largo on a trip to Japan in the hope of filling the hole in his life. At best, he might be able to claim that he's only been melancholy instead of full on sad.

Third, Piro has spent all his money, is without resources, and tossed out on the streets in a foreign country, and now forced to confront both the realities of life and his futile attempts to escape from it. Of course he's sad.

Good grief, I can find it possible (if unlikely) that Yuki misinterpreted who Piro's feelings of love were for (the obvious alternative being Kimiko who was in the room and showing understanding and affection towards Piro), but to argue she misunderstood hate for love is just silly.

User avatar
iffy
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by iffy » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:58 pm

It seems at least likely that Yuki wouldn't necessarily know how to tell in others whatever differences there are between fear, unease, ambivalence, emptiness, sorrow, guilt, nostalgia, desperation, love, lust, longing, wistfulness, melancholy, affection, desire, etc.

Can a young inexperienced magical girl feel something like a sense of mistaken actions of the past and fond remembrance of what didn't actually happen and think it love? Why would she be or not, how much is she a swipeystealy sort of MG and how much love sense power does she have or not. It at least looks like not much of anything Piro has done after Largo let Miho out of the book suggests either hate or love towards her. A lot of that has been more a mix of things including the above and frustration, anger, confusion, pity. He looks at the drawing of her with wistful sad fondness of a past not fully remembered for all the bad. As we see he has that bad too, in that discussion the next morning in the apartment, where it isn't much anything like we might expect from somebody who's found their lost love of their life. Most of the time much the same goes for Largo, just seemingly without the oddly strange chat/picture out-of-game and related emotions. Whatever Piro is acting like, we could argue how much can one trust one's own feelings about a past situation that turned out to be based upon fiction, much less trust the feelings of somebody else peering in on them without any experience to compare it to. We could argue the apparent conscious removal of memories of most of all that in all three participants in Endgames, combined with what appeared Piro's seeming total lack of interest in anything more than at best figuring things out and helping when they were bathing and (as far as they knew) alone. Then he follows her around waiting to see what happens, not apparently for some opportunity to "reconnect" but to save her from being killed by some mystic power he doesn't seem to fully believe even when they're tearing down a school and grabbing people. He does appear unsurprised Miho is at the apartment and about to die though. Actually, it's like he's almost expecting something like that. That's pretty curious, yet in the way things usually works, probably means nothing. At least for now.

Again, though what if anything Piro still feels or not about Miho is probably a totally separate discussion from what he might feel about Kimiko now. That part might be soon illuminated. Is it right not easy, or does that mean anything any more. If it ever really did.

There seems more to the other part as well, and who knows, maybe Yuki trying to save etc Ririka et al will somehow juxtapose with whatever Yaku is misusing Junpei for.

cidjen
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Location: Love and Lies, Clannad, Air, Kanon, Mousou Telepathy, Love Hina, UQ Holder, Bleach, Negima, Naruto,
Contact:

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by cidjen » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:04 pm

Sackett wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:13 am
cidjen wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:30 pm
darrin wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:06 pm


Wa-hey, now there's an interesting thought that hadn't even occurred to me, thanks. :D
[...]

So maybe Yuki got the magnitude right, but the sign wrong. ;)
[...]
There is further evidence to that : in the scene where she finally gets a(n) on screen drawing lesson, she thinks that Piro is sad... he has to correct, that it's not him, it's his characters that are sad. (https://megatokyo.com/strip/768)
Except that it's completely obvious that Piro is lying and that he is sad.

First, it's obvious in the actual comic, just look at Piro's body language.

Second, from the whole comic it's obvious that Piro has been feeling sad and empty for a long time, and that he dragged Largo on a trip to Japan in the hope of filling the hole in his life. At best, he might be able to claim that he's only been melancholy instead of full on sad.

Third, Piro has spent all his money, is without resources, and tossed out on the streets in a foreign country, and now forced to confront both the realities of life and his futile attempts to escape from it. Of course he's sad.

Good grief, I can find it possible (if unlikely) that Yuki misinterpreted who Piro's feelings of love were for (the obvious alternative being Kimiko who was in the room and showing understanding and affection towards Piro), but to argue she misunderstood hate for love is just silly.
That may be true, except...
here during the 'lesson' he actually does what he likes doing, what he (probably) would like to live to do : drawing, maybe teaching how to draw.
Body language may be the result of being in proximity to an actual teen girl, who MAY not be in a school girl uniform now, but he saw her in one... and within sight of one he (thought?) he (used to?) love (within the linked strip). Also the teen has seen his drawings of Miho. Absolutely Nothing Upsetting Here.
That, or I am really bad at interpreting body language :J

User avatar
iffy
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by iffy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:20 pm

Not that he isn't ultra sad and imbuing the characters in the drawings with that, but some of the events leading up to 768 something that comes from you might shed light upon what to expect or not from Piro. Putting emotions into drawings doesn't necessarily mean the artist has the same emotions or in the same ways. There's clearly some understanding or affinity with such types of emotions, an understanding of and perhaps even empathy with the character. (On another subject, maybe that's why Kimiko isn't so convincing as dead (if Erika is correct) because there's no Piro providing the other half of the illusion)

For these drawings of sad girls in snow, even if Piro is depressed etc about his overall situation, that doesn't mean it's the exact sort of emotion the characters have. Although there seems some amount of catharsis going on, and that does make sense. But he suggests (and perhaps he believes, and maybe he is correct) that they'd be the same - for the character - regardless if Piro himself was tired or sad or happy or angry when he started or ended the work. Even if he wouldn't necessarily be in the mood to draw in certain states that weren't somewhat close to the character, it doesn't mean he was experiencing or releasing anything close to the same emotions. That's kind of what he's trying to explain to Yuki about it, even as he is as dense about how that equates to something more current. As indeed just about everyone is when it comes to themselves versus others. Because also, it's probably just as much true that when a viewer feels for a work, there's at least a large part of the artist in the work. Or that many of the best works are those that the artist makes for themselves, not the ones for potential audiences. Another sort of argument all of that likely, so back to the context and precedent and so on.

Often Piro does seem somewhat more upbeat (if mopey deferring shy etc) most of the time even still. But even if he is still sadder than the girls in snow are, he's trying to let Yuki know she doesn't necessarily have to feel a certain way to create art that seems to feel that way. If he does have to, or actually is, that's another matter, no matter if he doesn't seem to think that's the case. Plus he's not really an art teacher anyway, is he. He's a sim player. And a fanboy otaku sort that speaks Japanese like a teenage girl. One might say. Although that sort of thing doesn't really establish anything about his actual mood in 768 either, does it.

So. While one or more immediate previous strips (767 none of them are mine at least) leading up to 768 give something, it's the earlier sorts of basis of how Piro behaves and has learned to behave in these situations that might give more insight on what his demeanor and emotional state and actions are when he finally stops forgetting (replacing with his own troubles) her art lessons. What he's dealing with in his head that might make his behavior odd and even perhaps contradictory, besides all the somewhat obvious things.

184 nothing to worry about 254 art supplies 263 seiyuu lessons 264 could have been worse 275 my l33t senses never tingle wrong

That's not all of what was preoccupying him, which was quite a bit and of similar sorts of impact one imagines. And those sorts of things can take a heavy emotional toll on a usually reactive, more introverted, low-key sort of person.

cidjen
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Location: Love and Lies, Clannad, Air, Kanon, Mousou Telepathy, Love Hina, UQ Holder, Bleach, Negima, Naruto,
Contact:

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by cidjen » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:15 am

iffy wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:20 pm
Not that he isn't ultra sad and imbuing the characters in the drawings with that, but some of the events leading up to 768 something that comes from you might shed light upon what to expect or not from Piro. Putting emotions into drawings doesn't necessarily mean the artist has the same emotions or in the same ways. There's clearly some understanding or affinity with such types of emotions, an understanding of and perhaps even empathy with the character. (On another subject, maybe that's why Kimiko isn't so convincing as dead (if Erika is correct) because there's no Piro providing the other half of the illusion)
Something feels wrong about this sentence... At first. But then... Would the illusion be more complete if Piro did start doing CPR?... Or of there wasn't an awkward pause for button discipline? He acts 'in character' only as long as he didn't realize it's not Miho with a death wish, that he's looking at.
As for emotions in the drawings, well this is kinda what I wanted to express... He might be a sad looser, or have the right afterthoughts of his life so far, that he kinda is one, and the whole run up to the 'lesson' is not a great bed of rose petals... But at the moment when he is 'teaching' he seems to be completely immersed and free from whatever goes on on the outside (in one of the panels, in comic after the Largo X Junior X gamerdude intermission, Erika looks at him from the side, as his eyes are 'seeing nothing else' to the point where Miho sneaks up and does the little 'spectacle'). That's why Yuki is confused and asks whether he is sad... She can't detect where is the sadness coming from any more. When he does what he loves doing, he isn't sad. Hence his answer that it's the characters that are sad, not him. Because when he draws or does something to do with drawing, is the only moments when he actually is happy, and all the sadness in or out has nothing on him then.

edit: now done editing

User avatar
iffy
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by iffy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:20 pm

cidjen wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:15 am
Something feels wrong about this sentence... At first. But then... Would the illusion be more complete if Piro did start doing CPR?... Or of there wasn't an awkward pause for button discipline? He acts 'in character' only as long as he didn't realize it's not Miho with a death wish, that he's looking at.
It doesn't seem the context allows much more than 'hero carries off fallen tragic figure he couldn't save'. That this medium only allows Kimiko's acting, not Piro's emotive drawing. The situation itself seems it can't help but lack that synergy, because it's live and out in Megatokyo proper. It's not what was discussed in something I want to do, it was instead the impromptu Kimiko playing Miho and Piro going along with it suddenly out in the world, such as it is.

A leading into it example goes back to before. Conversations and methods and results. The exchange starting in about nothing to be afraid of. Or more exactly, it's important to her. It appears that also relates to what Megumi asked Piro in 1503 about dating, as in how the day ends (and as we learn more about the next chapter/day in 994 995 999).

Chapter 8 covers the day after the restaurant/subway incident; Ed's schoolyard beatdown by Miho, Ping's purge utility, and what the honorable thing to do is when building computers and how they should be tested. Which chapter ends with Erika attempting to seduce Largo, and Piro and Kimiko falling asleep together. That conversation at Megagamers between Kimiko and Piro in chapter 8 covers quite a bit about what it all might mean, and why people believe they're dating, further solidified by what happens at Ikebukuro in chapter 9.

That's why Yuki is confused and asks whether he is sad... She can't detect where is the sadness coming from any more. When he does what he loves doing, he isn't sad. Hence his answer that it's the characters that are sad, not him. Because when he draws or does something to do with drawing, is the only moments when he actually is happy, and all the sadness in or out has nothing on him then.
Exactly a good way to put it. Yuki doesn't quite understand how to draw emotively because she can't immerse herself in the art. Overthinking it, she can't forget about what she feels or how the world is, practical matters intrude and make the work unable to express itself. So I guess we could say that an artist feeling certain ways is not a benefit to creating living characters. Being inside yourself hampers the process, it's the character that has to be the all of focus, or no focus on anything in particular.

Which is likely also one of the reasons Yuki isn't necessarily helpful in parsing how the unclear how is reflected in the past she read about. The sounds of the words she hears mean things to her that aren't necessarily at all meant by those making them. She's got some info, but not all, and while what she does have is in ways correct, her own filters on Miho and Piro before versus now, and the context in which she views them, affects how and what she decides it all means.

Like Ibara in just a little and such a sad idea for an interface knows something more. With how he is acting there, there's not necessarily the sense yet that "oh he is another game company person with inside knowledge," as the situation and emotions invoked tend to cover up any underlying facts. Yet even beyond the smaller part of not knowing what he knows exactly or how correct the info itself is, there's the much bigger part in that he derives conclusions based upon what he knows and his existing opinions on it. We might guess the insiders have factual and fairly detailed information, just not everything fully, but we still have to take that into account and extract their perceptions out to get a better idea. Often we can get a pretty clear idea of what those perceptions are, just as equally as often they can't do that for themselves. Ibara doesn't realize the limitations thinking of Ping as a replacement analogue puts on him or that no Miho isn't stable and he can't hire her, just like Yuki isn't cognizant she can't tell where the feelings are from and that she doesn't quite understand what the feelings are either. (Sort of like that whole 'everyone knows Yutaka is into her except her, and she's a magical girl even' thing.) We can to some extent (depending on how much we're shown over time) do that for just about everyone. Which actually is probably why I usually suggest we can't much trust or validate anything from Miho, too all over the place to get a clearer idea of what to discount as subjective or wishful thinking or wrong. Which that question is probably if it's all being done on purpose, but we can't answer that either.

Not every shortcoming, illusion, blind-spot or ulterior motive is tellable in comic, but sometimes depending on how much information from how many sources (say multiple characters acting independently and with nobody else around all suggesting some narrative is false) will let us get a good idea of what might be a tentative conclusion. Always tentative are the guesses, because no idea really matters (on the factual side) until it or its opposite are covered in story, and most anything could be true beforehand. That's just seems the nature of infinite possibility though.

cidjen
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Location: Love and Lies, Clannad, Air, Kanon, Mousou Telepathy, Love Hina, UQ Holder, Bleach, Negima, Naruto,
Contact:

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by cidjen » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:18 pm

iffy wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:20 pm

Not every shortcoming, illusion, blind-spot or ulterior motive is tellable in comic, but sometimes depending on how much information from how many sources (say multiple characters acting independently and with nobody else around all suggesting some narrative is false) will let us get a good idea of what might be a tentative conclusion. Always tentative are the guesses, because no idea really matters (on the factual side) until it or its opposite are covered in story, and most anything could be true beforehand. That's just seems the nature of infinite possibility though.
Which is why it is so enjoyable to discuss :)

cidjen
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Location: Love and Lies, Clannad, Air, Kanon, Mousou Telepathy, Love Hina, UQ Holder, Bleach, Negima, Naruto,
Contact:

Re: [1504] It wasn't for me

Post by cidjen » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:21 pm

Also I realized recently, this couple of comics arc out to 727 :)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: darrin and 1 guest