[1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

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Eraden
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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Eraden » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:16 pm

darrin wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:00 pm
Arent wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:01 pm
But wasn't she running around with Ashe? I'm confused now πŸ˜…
I certainly won't claim to not be confused by the details of the relationships. To the best of my abilities to seek aid from search ninja, those details have yet to be revealed, and I'm pretty sure that's deliberate on Fred's part.

When Megumi took Piro and Kimiko to The Fox Hole, there was much forum debate on the relation between (Megumi's?) Grandma the Fox Hole owner / manager and (Yakugashi's) GreatGrandma the Shrine / Clan head.

Unfortunately there were just too many possibilities not ruled out in the comic for that debate to get anywhere. (That's not snark; I freely admit to having contributed more noise than signal myself on that subject.) It's a pretty safe bet (from the conversation in 1490/1491) that "GreatGrandma" is the mother of Mugi's mother. On the other side we don't get much explicit description at all though; Megumi calls the Fox Hole manager "Grandma", and Ashe her "cousin"; but there are lots of relations it would be culturally appropriate for Megumi to call "grandma" (great-aunt?) and vastly more that it would be appropriate to call "cousin" (first, second etc.). (In translation anyway.)

My initial guess was that Shrine GreatGrandma and Fox Hole Grandma are not related by blood, just marriage. That would have allowed for Megumi to be from the "human" side of the family, with Ashe and Mugi being on the "foxy" side. The current reveal would change that to being the "cover story" Megumi believed, with her actually being more closely related to those two than she realized. But no, most of that is still just guesswork, and I'm not betting too heavily on any of those specific details.
As much as I enjoy watching people use conventional knowledge about genetics and familial lineages (I was a geneticist in my working life after all) to try and figure out where Megumi fits within the hierarchy of the Kitsune family, I must point out the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Megumi is a supernatural being. I am not sure any of us know what that entails with regards to lineage or acquisition of features/powers. It may be possible that all that is required is a mere trace of "kitsune blood" in order to trigger a change should proper conditions present themselves. We don't even know what those proper conditions might be. If one were to use conventional genetics to try and explain her lineage you quickly run into a roadblock. Short of invoking gene mutation, it should be incredibly difficult for Great Grandma to spawn a kitsune that may be functionally superior to herself through mere breeding alone. That is, unless of course somewhere in her past she mated with a true 9-tail. This is why, as much as I find it annoying to admit, we can't use conventional science/knowledge to pin down where Megumi came from.

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Voyager » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:11 pm

Note: this also means that whatever was going to happen with Erika and Largo last comic has now already happened. Likewise Piro and Kimiko, and whatever happened with Tohoya wanting to see them.

She could just open the door, see the hotel in flames and just decide the best course of action is to go back to bed and forget about it...

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Roamer » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:22 pm

Voyager wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:11 pm
Note: this also means that whatever was going to happen with Erika and Largo last comic has now already happened. Likewise Piro and Kimiko, and whatever happened with Tohoya wanting to see them.

She could just open the door, see the hotel in flames and just decide the best course of action is to go back to bed and forget about it...
I'm kind of hoping for a montage of her walking past open doors and seeing the fallout of last night on all involved...

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by paarfi » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:38 pm

Roamer wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:22 pm
I'm kind of hoping for a montage of her walking past open doors and seeing the fallout of last night on all involved...
How about a Scooby-Doo chase scene, with everybody running in and out of doors. :ph34r:
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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Invisigoth » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:52 pm

paarfi wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:38 pm
Roamer wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:22 pm
I'm kind of hoping for a montage of her walking past open doors and seeing the fallout of last night on all involved...
How about a Scooby-Doo chase scene, with everybody running in and out of doors. :ph34r:
Do you have any idea what effect drawing something like that would have on Fred?

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Arent » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:25 am

darrin wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:00 pm
Arent wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:01 pm
But wasn't she running around with Ashe? I'm confused now πŸ˜…
I certainly won't claim to not be confused by the details of the relationships. To the best of my abilities to seek aid from search ninja, those details have yet to be revealed, and I'm pretty sure that's deliberate on Fred's part.

When Megumi took Piro and Kimiko to The Fox Hole, there was much forum debate on the relation between (Megumi's?) Grandma the Fox Hole owner / manager and (Yakugashi's) GreatGrandma the Shrine / Clan head.

Unfortunately there were just too many possibilities not ruled out in the comic for that debate to get anywhere. (That's not snark; I freely admit to having contributed more noise than signal myself on that subject.) It's a pretty safe bet (from the conversation in 1490/1491) that "GreatGrandma" is the mother of Mugi's mother. On the other side we don't get much explicit description at all though; Megumi calls the Fox Hole manager "Grandma", and Ashe her "cousin"; but there are lots of relations it would be culturally appropriate for Megumi to call "grandma" (great-aunt?) and vastly more that it would be appropriate to call "cousin" (first, second etc.). (In translation anyway.)

My initial guess was that Shrine GreatGrandma and Fox Hole Grandma are not related by blood, just marriage. That would have allowed for Megumi to be from the "human" side of the family, with Ashe and Mugi being on the "foxy" side. The current reveal would change that to being the "cover story" Megumi believed, with her actually being more closely related to those two than she realized. But no, most of that is still just guesswork, and I'm not betting too heavily on any of those specific details.
Thanks for the clarification. I was already wondering whether I had missed something. From the story I had thought Megumi was known to be a fox-girl but hiding it in public. Now, it seems she didn't really know, for whatever reason.

Maybe, fox-girls sometimes 'manifest' later in life. Probably having the unintended side effects the shrine grandma was talking about.

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Roamer » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:16 am

Invisigoth wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:52 pm
paarfi wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:38 pm
Roamer wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:22 pm
I'm kind of hoping for a montage of her walking past open doors and seeing the fallout of last night on all involved...
How about a Scooby-Doo chase scene, with everybody running in and out of doors. :ph34r:
Do you have any idea what effect drawing something like that would have on Fred?
Not to mention the casual readers and newbies.

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Invisigoth » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:25 am

My go to theory is that her 8 tail grandmother and perhaps Mugi's mother worked to place some spell or curse on her to prevent her true nature from being perceived by anyone, even herself. It may well have been very dangerous for her to be scampering around as an adorable 9 tailed child who may very well have been scooped up by whatever the nationwide equivalent of the TPCD would be and kept securely pumped full of drugs if not killed outright

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by darrin » Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:27 am

Eraden wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:16 pm
I enjoy watching people use conventional knowledge about genetics and familial lineages [...] to try and figure out where Megumi fits within the hierarchy of the Kitsune family
I'm not doing anything of the sort. The only observation I've made is that Megumi calls Grandma "Grandma", and Ashe "cousin", and that Yakugashi calls Megumi "Aunt Megumi". The only assumption I'm yet willing to commit to (in contrast to personal speculation that I explicitly marked in my post as unimportant guesswork) is that that probably isn't completely meaningless. (The fact that many cultures expect children to refer to non-related adults like friends of the family as "aunt" and "uncle" should be obvious enough not to need stating, and should make it quite clear that "not completely meaningless" still doesn't give much ground yet for sussing out actual relationships. This was precisely my point when I mentioned the previous forum debate on the issue, and how it didn't gain much useful ground.)
It may be possible that all that is required is a mere trace of "kitsune blood" in order to trigger a change should proper conditions present themselves.
Which would be another additional assumption not (yet) explicitly supported in the comic, which would reduce the likelihood of a model incorporating that assumption per Occam.
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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Invisigoth » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:33 pm

Another possibility is that Megumi's bio father was/is in fact a powerful but statistically much rarer male kitsune who was able to mask his own true nature.

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Eraden » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:55 pm

darrin wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:27 am
Eraden wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:16 pm
I enjoy watching people use conventional knowledge about genetics and familial lineages [...] to try and figure out where Megumi fits within the hierarchy of the Kitsune family
I'm not doing anything of the sort. The only observation I've made is that Megumi calls Grandma "Grandma", and Ashe "cousin", and that Yakugashi calls Megumi "Aunt Megumi". The only assumption I'm yet willing to commit to (in contrast to personal speculation that I explicitly marked in my post as unimportant guesswork) is that that probably isn't completely meaningless. (The fact that many cultures expect children to refer to non-related adults like friends of the family as "aunt" and "uncle" should be obvious enough not to need stating, and should make it quite clear that "not completely meaningless" still doesn't give much ground yet for sussing out actual relationships. This was precisely my point when I mentioned the previous forum debate on the issue, and how it didn't gain much useful ground.)
It may be possible that all that is required is a mere trace of "kitsune blood" in order to trigger a change should proper conditions present themselves.
Which would be another additional assumption not (yet) explicitly supported in the comic, which would reduce the likelihood of a model incorporating that assumption per Occam.
My focus with regards to your earlier post was your final paragraph. It was pretty clear there that you were trying to offer up a suggestion about narrowing down Megumi's lineage and it appeared to be somewhat based on traditional means of determining lineage. I am not trying to fault you for this attempt. In fact I find it rather fun to see people speculate on this topic. I myself am quite curious about her origins. All I wanted to do was point out that as a supernatural being, there is a real possibility that she isn't bound by the normal rules that govern us "normal" people. To that end, I threw out a notion that was meant merely as an example of what could be in order to let readers know that we may likely be in uncharted territory. It appears that you have taken that slightly out of context and assumed I was actually proposing a definite solution to her origin. I simply haven't a clue as to how she properly fits, with respect to bloodline, into the family hierarchy.

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Eraden » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:01 pm

Invisigoth wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:33 pm
Another possibility is that Megumi's bio father was/is in fact a powerful but statistically much rarer male kitsune who was able to mask his own true nature.
I find that possibility quite intriguing, Invisigoth. It's as likely a possibility as any other, given the fact that we are dealing with a supernatural being. While it requires bringing a somewhat unknown entity (the mysterious MALE kitsune) into the equation, it does offer a way to use conventional genetics and lineage tracing to explain her existance. I think I will hang my hat on this proposal. It fits nicely into my world view as a geneticist.

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by maldrul » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:39 pm

Eraden wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:01 pm
Invisigoth wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:33 pm
Another possibility is that Megumi's bio father was/is in fact a powerful but statistically much rarer male kitsune who was able to mask his own true nature.
I find that possibility quite intriguing, Invisigoth. It's as likely a possibility as any other, given the fact that we are dealing with a supernatural being. While it requires bringing a somewhat unknown entity (the mysterious MALE kitsune) into the equation, it does offer a way to use conventional genetics and lineage tracing to explain her existance. I think I will hang my hat on this proposal. It fits nicely into my world view as a geneticist.
We *are* quite rare indeed. ;>
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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Eraden » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:25 am

maldrul wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:39 pm
Eraden wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:01 pm
Invisigoth wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:33 pm
Another possibility is that Megumi's bio father was/is in fact a powerful but statistically much rarer male kitsune who was able to mask his own true nature.
I find that possibility quite intriguing, Invisigoth. It's as likely a possibility as any other, given the fact that we are dealing with a supernatural being. While it requires bringing a somewhat unknown entity (the mysterious MALE kitsune) into the equation, it does offer a way to use conventional genetics and lineage tracing to explain her existance. I think I will hang my hat on this proposal. It fits nicely into my world view as a geneticist.
We *are* quite rare indeed. ;>
Hmm, that's right, we do have an in house male kitsune. Might as well get it straight from the fox's mouth. What's your take on Megumi's lineage, Maldrul?

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Invisigoth » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:35 am

Eraden wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:25 am
maldrul wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:39 pm
Eraden wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:01 pm


I find that possibility quite intriguing, Invisigoth. It's as likely a possibility as any other, given the fact that we are dealing with a supernatural being. While it requires bringing a somewhat unknown entity (the mysterious MALE kitsune) into the equation, it does offer a way to use conventional genetics and lineage tracing to explain her existance. I think I will hang my hat on this proposal. It fits nicely into my world view as a geneticist.
We *are* quite rare indeed. ;>
Hmm, that's right, we do have an in house male kitsune. Might as well get it straight from the fox's mouth. What's your take on Megumi's lineage, Maldrul?
And more importantly, where were you that weekend Maldrul????

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Zandra » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:46 am

maldrul wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:39 pm
Eraden wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:01 pm
Invisigoth wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:33 pm
Another possibility is that Megumi's bio father was/is in fact a powerful but statistically much rarer male kitsune who was able to mask his own true nature.
I find that possibility quite intriguing, Invisigoth. It's as likely a possibility as any other, given the fact that we are dealing with a supernatural being. While it requires bringing a somewhat unknown entity (the mysterious MALE kitsune) into the equation, it does offer a way to use conventional genetics and lineage tracing to explain her existance. I think I will hang my hat on this proposal. It fits nicely into my world view as a geneticist.
We *are* quite rare indeed. ;>
The reason you guys are rare is because the aloofness of male kitsune,and females hate a in attentive male. :)
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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Voyager » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:57 pm

Arent wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:25 am
[...]

From the story I had thought Megumi was known to be a fox-girl but hiding it in public. Now, it seems she didn't really know, for whatever reason.

[...]
Minor logical quible; it is not yet in evidence that she does not know, merely that it is not public knowledge. We will know more once we see her response to the nine tails.

Also, I'm not sure we've been considering what she actually wants out of life. Just because she is a nine-tail does not mean she has any particular interest in being a hyper-powerful magical figure. I recall one of the smartest guys in the world works as a bouncer. He would sometimes solve physics problems when it caught his fancy, but that really wasn't what he was interested in doing, so he didn't.

Maybe she's a locked nine-tail, or maybe she just doesn't want to deal with that snake pit of politics and is good enough/powerful enough that no-one who knows what she is wants to pull her into it lets they be totally unable to control the aftermath.

We just do don't know, yet...

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by maldrul » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:52 pm

As best I can tell, the Sawatari clan are *all* foxgirls that will breed true and do not marry their "sperm donors". The number of tails that a particular Sawatari girl has at birth is random (although actual kitsune lore states that they all have one tail at birth and grow additional tails for each 100 years of life, but this is Fred's world). The more tails a kitsune has, the more magical power they posses. So Megumi was born with nine tails and all the magical power associated with that. It is just as likely (if not more so) that she hides her "kitsuneness" because of the "monster" stigma associated with it. Yaku had attempted the same, but with only 2 tails, she doesn't have the magic necessary. Megumi OTOH could have mastered the technique at a very early age and is her default on a daily basis. Only when she is very angry or depressed does her facade crumble.
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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Yl33 D4 N00b » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:33 pm

I have to agree with maldrul's assesment. I'd be very surprised if Megs didn't know about her kitsune status.

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Roamer » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:13 am

maldrul wrote: ↑
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:52 pm
As best I can tell, the Sawatari clan are *all* foxgirls that will breed true and do not marry their "sperm donors". The number of tails that a particular Sawatari girl has at birth is random (although actual kitsune lore states that they all have one tail at birth and grow additional tails for each 100 years of life, but this is Fred's world). The more tails a kitsune has, the more magical power they posses. So Megumi was born with nine tails and all the magical power associated with that. It is just as likely (if not more so) that she hides her "kitsuneness" because of the "monster" stigma associated with it. Yaku had attempted the same, but with only 2 tails, she doesn't have the magic necessary. Megumi OTOH could have mastered the technique at a very early age and is her default on a daily basis. Only when she is very angry or depressed does her facade crumble.
This is perfectly internally consistent, but problematic in the larger arena of MT. If they all breed true as catgirls regardless of the male's race, then given the span of a few generations and their luck the catgirls should be a much larger presence in the city if not the outright majority. Given that MT seems to work on well-reasoned internal rules (yay for good game design) this means that elther we're missing something, or that's not how it works. We might be missing something, but we don't know what we don't know, so there's no point in worrying about that option until we get more info. OTOH, speculating on alternatives is fun. While the number of tails is probably random, not all alternatives are equally likely, or nine-tails would be so common that they would again warp the MT world, because they really are that stupidly powerful.

(I wonder if Masamichi has a Fluke Foxgirl detector to go with his MG model?)

From a story standpoint, I think she was unaware of her status simply because it makes her story more powerful. Remember, this is the girl who only really came into her own in the story when she pointed her car at a mech for the sake of her friends. Her knowing about her power at that moment makes it far less appealing as a moment of heroism. As well, if she had known what she was, and could access the power, it seems likely that this specific scene would have been a likely time for her reveal. So if we accept that, then either she didn't know, or couldn't access it. We have no way of knowing which, but again, it's more powerful as a story if she didn't know. So, storytelling being what it is, I think that's the most likely explanation.

Certainly it's the explanation that's the most fun.

==

Largely off topic, but I also don't buy Grandma's story about grafting on another tail to make herself a nine-tail; that way lies madness, or at least civil war. Foxes aren't terribly social animals, but that ability would utterly disrupt the social fabric of the kitsune. No, she was jerking her unruly kid around and probably giving her grandkid a good scare, possibly for a good reason we don't know yet.

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Invisigoth » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:19 am

PROTIP: There's a reason that one of Grandmother Eight Tails is mismatched.

Another problem facing the kitsune is that they've suffered from inbreeding in the past so some hybridization with baseline humans has resulted in response to the issues. Human society drove the catgirls extinct in MT and a lot of what was true of "monsters" in the past no longer applies

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Voyager » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:34 am

On the Sawatari not marrying, that could be a reason for a kitsune deciding to reject power. Not everyone wants to be a permanent bachelor, and what may be normal for us could quite easily be exotic and romantic for someone who, per her culture, has no access to it.

On Grandma's tail grafting, do we know how old she actually is? Since she's a nine tail, she could easily have been an adult during the Age of Warring States, and been an active participant in any of the major civil wars over the last 500-800 years. A *lot* can happen in a millennium. And a lot of culture can change.

That also gives Megumi a bit of a nightmare fuel future, and does explain why the Sawatari clan never marry though...

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by paarfi » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:28 am

Invisigoth wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:19 am
PROTIP: There's a reason that one of Grandmother Eight Tails is mismatched.
Yeah, but don't forget we only have the word of crazy cousin Youko to explain why. [1490

Not saying it's wrong, but I don't think we can accept it as canon yet.
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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Invisigoth » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:28 pm

paarfi wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:28 am
Invisigoth wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:19 am
PROTIP: There's a reason that one of Grandmother Eight Tails is mismatched.
Yeah, but don't forget we only have the word of crazy cousin Youko to explain why. [1490

Not saying it's wrong, but I don't think we can accept it as canon yet.
That's true Paarfi

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Re: [1586] Chapter 13 - Redemption

Post by Eraden » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:43 pm

Voyager wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:34 am
On the Sawatari not marrying, that could be a reason for a kitsune deciding to reject power. Not everyone wants to be a permanent bachelor, and what may be normal for us could quite easily be exotic and romantic for someone who, per her culture, has no access to it.

On Grandma's tail grafting, do we know how old she actually is? Since she's a nine tail, she could easily have been an adult during the Age of Warring States, and been an active participant in any of the major civil wars over the last 500-800 years. A *lot* can happen in a millennium. And a lot of culture can change.

That also gives Megumi a bit of a nightmare fuel future, and does explain why the Sawatari clan never marry though...
A small correction: as was noted by several others, Great Grandma is an EIGHT-tailed kitsune. In terms of sheer power or at least potential power, Megumi now dwarfs her. The only thing Great Grandma has over Megumi would be years of experience and if Invisigoth and I are right about Great Grandma having cursed or at least suppressed Megumi, those years of experience might not have given her much wisdom. Hell, for how she's treated Mugi, I would say that she doesn't seem to have learned much wisdom. Never EVER try to alienate family. It WILL come back to bite you in the end. I seem to recall one strip in this comic where we briefly caught a glimse of what seemed to be....regret showing on the face of Great Grandma. Maybe she realizes that the manner in which she has governed the clan is perhaps not the best way to have done it. Now that the Nine-Tail is out of the bag, it may be already too late to mend things. If the next few strips reveal that Megumi did not know she is a Nine-Tail, I would submit that Invisigoth's theory about her situation is still the most likely.

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