Yay!
I mean I'm thoroughly enjoying TTPD, but at the end of the day MT is what keeps me coming back.
Moderators: Invisigoth, chemi
Yay!
darrin, I'm not claiming that Teddy is right; I'm saying he has a justifiable position to argue from. Everybody wants to claim that he's just stuck in this mode for whatever reason and won't change, but the fact is that based on the information we've seen so far his arguments are internally logical and, from some viewpoints, completely reasonable. Yes, thinking of her as actually Evil would require her to be a pathological liar, but she's already displayed this trait to some degree with Piro in the online chats as well as in Endgames.darrin wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:19 amThe important point is that it gave information about the external world, as opposed to "Whatever direction I am facing must be north, because my nose and my gut never steer me wrong."
Lots of people would be "right" to call Miho a "potential danger". I would never argue against calling her a potential danger. Miho being a "potential danger" is not a specific prediction of TWB's model, but rather that is she is intrinsically and irredeemably evil, that all of the events of "danger and destruction" around her are deliberate and of malicious intent.And in the past, Teddy was right in that Miho was at that time the clear and present danger. Given that she just destroyed most of a wing of a hospital,
[...] she is still a potential danger
Pointing to a particular incident in which destruction took place and singling TWB out as being "right" in such a case is ignoring the core elements of what TWB himself is claiming to be right about: not the destruction per se but the evil and malicious intent behind it. This is actually worse than a "stopped clock is right twice a day" fallacy: not only should the model be considered to make a failed prediction every time Miho is _not_ involved in a destructive (or otherwise "evil") event, it should fail in a case like this if she was motivated not by desire to destroy, but by panic and terror and (assuming she was telling the truth to Kimiko about her backstory) a desire to reduce the threat to surrounding people (i.e. cause superficial damage to a hospital corridor as opposed to sticking around and watching people who "love" her get hurt or killed).
Am I 100% sure that she was telling the truth to Kimiko, and that she was terrified rather than malicious in the hospital? Of course not, I'd say 85% - 95% or thereabouts. But the situation isn't symmetric; I don't have a model that claims Miho is "intrinsically and incorruptibly good", so I don't need the numbers to be 100%. More important (at least in my opinion), my assessment of her is subject to being updated as new events unfold in the comic; there are lots and lots and lots of things that could easily make me realize, "Hmm, this would suggest Miho is worse than I had been giving her credit for." Is the same true of TWB's "model"? It's fine to have a "schtick", but if the schtick is independent of anything Fred himself could do in the comic, then personally I don't get it.
I'm not claiming Teddy is "wrong", so that's fine.
What I am claiming is that the position above depends very strongly on one's definition of "logical" and "reasonable". TWB also insists that "it is only logical", where "it" isI'm saying he has a justifiable position to argue from. [...]the fact is that based on the information we've seen so far his arguments are internally logical and, from some viewpoints, completely reasonable.
What I AM claiming is that what you've got there mate is an AXIOM -- a single axiom without any supporting justification or any useful derived conclusions. It is "logical" in the same sense that 0 is a vector space; yes fine it's a "logical" system, but only (mathematically) trivially so.TWB wrote: Miho is still psionic vampire succubus from the 237th layer of the Abyss skinwalking as a goth girl. She is the enemy of all that is good in life and needs to be destroyed.
(emphasis added). Except there is no "or not" in TWB's model, there is no consideration given to other alternatives because there simply ARE no alternatives. You're adding conditionals to a claim that originally had none whatsoever, indeed refuses to admit any conditionals whatsoever, and then using that to debunk my issues with the original unconditional claim.watching her powers cause the destruction of a school despite her clear intent to avoid it makes for a powerful argument that she is a force for chaos, willing or not.
"Omnia mutantur, et nos mutamur in illis." -- Charles Xavier
No, Thomas. Like the muffins (also English).
Very well put.
If it's any consolation: I get the feeling that Invisigoth represents the dark side of what Fred mutters in private about the story, its fans, and life in general. On the one hand, that makes it true to a very significant degree. But on the other hand, MT might be best described as an intersection/collision of multiple protagonists who all* believe they're doing the right thing, and that what they think is The Truth. You know, "humans". (^_~)Eraden wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:49 pm(snip) In the past I have made it clear that I sit in Invisigoth's camp in that I believe that Great Granny is responsible for Megumi's misfortunes, either directly or indirectly. I now must say, as we watch the situation begin to unfold, that I really hope that Invisigoth and I are wrong. I really don't want to see Megumi become a malicious monster. I don't want her to devolve into a state that makes her little more than the "Final Boss" that needs to be defeated by Erika/Miho/Moeko. I am hoping for a better future for that plucky girl. She's been a rock for so many other people to lean on up to this point. It's time that she gets to see her own bright future.
Not sure of this is some sort of corollary to Napoleon's advice ("Never forbid that which you have no power to prevent"), but it's not possible to encourage that which no earthly power can affect. (^_~)
Yutaka aka Chewtoy can definitely attest to the bolded part. And Miho's conversations with Yuki and her dad both attest to Miho understanding that while fire is warm when it's cold and can kill pathogens in your food, it's also very dangerous when uncontrolled.Roamer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:13 amOh, I fear the olde evil well enough. But there's considerable danger in a young new power that doesn't understand the harm they can do. Miho is old, and has come close to destroying the city before and had that go very badly. While she might bend it into a pretzel for fun, I doubt she wants to break it. But a nine tail Kitsune? From the legends she could destroy the city without realizing she's going that far, and likely in more than one way.
Teddy, the Nose Star. (^_~) Although in this case it might be more of a "Miho saved a kitten from being run over by a car? Obviously it's part of a foul plot to make the owner of the car feel bad."
+1.Lots of people would be "right" to call Miho a "potential danger". I would never argue against calling her a potential danger. Miho being a "potential danger" is not a specific prediction of TWB's model, but rather that is she is intrinsically and irredeemably evil, that all of the events of "danger and destruction" around her are deliberate and of malicious intent.And in the past, Teddy was right in that Miho was at that time the clear and present danger. Given that she just destroyed most of a wing of a hospital,
[...] she is still a potential danger
Pointing to a particular incident in which destruction took place and singling TWB out as being "right" in such a case is ignoring the core elements of what TWB himself is claiming to be right about: not the destruction per se but the evil and malicious intent behind it. This is actually worse than a "stopped clock is right twice a day" fallacy: not only should the model be considered to make a failed prediction every time Miho is _not_ involved in a destructive (or otherwise "evil") event, it should fail in a case like this if she was motivated not by desire to destroy, but by panic and terror and (assuming she was telling the truth to Kimiko about her backstory) a desire to reduce the threat to surrounding people (i.e. cause superficial damage to a hospital corridor as opposed to sticking around and watching people who "love" her get hurt or killed).
Am I 100% sure that she was telling the truth to Kimiko, and that she was terrified rather than malicious in the hospital? Of course not, I'd say 85% - 95% or thereabouts. But the situation isn't symmetric; I don't have a model that claims Miho is "intrinsically and incorruptibly good", so I don't need the numbers to be 100%. More important (at least in my opinion), my assessment of her is subject to being updated as new events unfold in the comic; there are lots and lots and lots of things that could easily make me realize, "Hmm, this would suggest Miho is worse than I had been giving her credit for." Is the same true of TWB's "model"? It's fine to have a "schtick", but if the schtick is independent of anything Fred himself could do in the comic, then personally I don't get it.
I always thought of them as the "dudes sitting under a black comforter adorned with Xmas tree lights" - did I just have bad reception, or was that one of the worst special effects of STNG (up there with original series)?
Well explicitly calling them "The Sheliak Corporate" would have been too nerdy / pendantic for the riff I was going for, and I needed a one-word summary of their costume, so no, you're not wrong in any way I can see. (But in case anyone asks that was actually one of the decent episodes, in the "writing is well ahead of the effects" category.)arimareiji wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:56 pmI always thought of them as the "dudes sitting under a black comforter adorned with Xmas tree lights" - did I just have bad reception, or was that one of the worst special effects of STNG (up there with original series)?
I hear ya!darrin wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:26 pmAlthough, full disclosure, brutally honest blah blah blah, gotta admit that sometimes the level of discourse on this subtopic makes me kinda wanna blow some shit up.
Offsetting, yea, but never in a direct balance. The different forces and groups in MT make chaos theory look nice and simple; in a multi-faceted environment with shifting alliances and amazingly varied abilities you need to be flexible. Purely offsetting forces would be too fragile against other opponents. My suspicion is that virtually all the in-costume Ninja are paper tigers. Certainly they fight like that. They are there to distract from the real Ninjas, the ones hidden behind all the paper-tiger ninjas - like Junpei's family - and the Ninja who hide in plain sight, like Junpei. Although the man himself is clearly more of a renegade from the Ninja ranks. (I really want to see his family's faces when they find out he's dating a kitsune.)Invisigoth wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:23 amRoamer just won the thread. Seriously the best analysis of what's going on that has been posted here in a very long time. I personally believe the Ninja and the kitsune to be offsetting forces though not necessarily a direct balance.
Bit of a side note, but sorry, when did Yuki and Yakugashi hang out? They are at the same hospital but I can't get the search ninja to give me evidence they've ever met.
According to their uniforms they go to different schools so they probably have not met yet. The way things are going they may all end up at the Fox Hole with everyone else.
Oh no argument there. (I was mainly checking I hadn't missed something, which happens enough that I couldn't be sure. )
Trent sorta looks like Paisen.....darrin wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:11 pmAt this point the only MT regular I'd be willing to bet won't show up at the Fox Hole any time soon would be Trent Oster.
And I can't edit the original post to give Darrin credit for noticing my mistake. The weird thing is, I could *picture* the comics in which they interacted, even though they never happened - so even reviewing it before posting didn't catch it. Even weirder, Invisigoth didn't catch it either. I hope I'm not channeling Fred or predicting future comics; given the way my brain works, I don't think anyone here wants to read 'Megatokyo 2077'.Roamer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:08 pmHm. You're right, they haven't yet. Shows what comes of 2am intuitive leaps, I guess.
Well they were hidden....
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