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[1560] A story that needs to be put away

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by darrin » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:24 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:52 pm
It's like a hack that can crash a server to the point that it requires a reset.
Which to me immediately brings to mind Miho's "m0h" taking down Endgames. I remember in one of the many "Miho is evil" discussions in the old forums I asked once what the actual reasons were, and it was finally admitted that a prominent one was her "cheating" in the game and beating (at least initially) Piro and Largo thereby. My response was more or less, do we know for sure she (literally) cheated? Cracked into a server and manipulated the code to take unfair of other players? Or was she just so damned good at it, sitting at the keyboard like any other player, but understanding the "emotional stats" vastly better than (almost) any of them, that the results would be difficult for them to distinguish from cheating? (The students accused her similarly of "cheating" at Moe-ball against Largo, and I didn't get much response either to my question of how the heck one could in principle cheat at an arcade game; all you have is the joystick and whatever buttons are there.)

Similarly, even if Moeko turned out not to have any bad intentions at all, then the level of power involved could indeed still pose a serious threat to whatever is "out here". Kind of a Batman v Superman thing. :lol: (And if Stability did put her in a coma deliberately, and she harbors any resentment in that regard, then "hold on to your butts" as Samuel Jackson said. :shock:)
Orriens wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:54 am
Google translated.
You sure this is correct?
Heh, sounds like a quote from a Japanese translation of the Simpsons movie.

"Kare wa kumonosu kara jibun jishin o chudan suru koto ga dekimasu ka?"
"Mochiron sode wa arimasen! Kare wa buta desu!"

(Again, google translate, my apologies for any inaccuracies.)
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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by Rapierman » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:28 pm

So, let's see.....if Moeko (in this form) wants Erika to finish the story, and she's already burned those bridges behind her....

….maybe it takes Piro to finish it for her. After all, he is familiar with the story.

…….or, maybe, if Erika is a bit too grown up, she can contribute the writing, Piro can do the art and Kimiko can be the actress she always wanted to be, taking over for Erika....

…that is, if they'd let her do that.

Fred: Given the underlying story (now that I've seen enough of it), I'm willing to go along. Just give it an "NC-17" rating and move on.
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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by Invisigoth » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:47 pm

Pretty sure that there's no way that Erika can get out of this. She has to clean up the mess that she made now so time to suck it up and grow up

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by Small Pink Mouse » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:18 am

paarfi wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:18 pm
Yup, looks that way. Not as a full-out anime, perhaps. Those take scheduling and money and such. Erika still has people in the industry like Sayuri who like her, but I imagine she ticked off a bunch of others with the way she quit before. But maybe a full-out anime isn't required to tell the rest of Moeko's story.
Manga might be the way to go. ^_^

Edit: Or perhaps a few light novels? o_O

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by Small Pink Mouse » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:26 am

cidjen wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:55 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:31 pm
this is not going to be easy
especially that Erika knows WHAT the fans were really after ...
(not just from that but from her own experience), wonder if Moeko is aware of that...?

Is this the kind of monstrous existence the fans give, that Miho was the victim of...?

This smells more and more like a trap... but not on Erika, but on Moeko instead, maybe Stability has enough of her fooling around and wants her out of that currently suspended existence, even if it means creating another Analogue.
I think it's time to point out the obvious. Stability is not Evil. Nor have they ever been prone to gratuitously evil things. It is unlikely that they would turn down win-win situations upon those occasions whenever such things cross their path. ^_^

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by cidjen » Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:26 am

Small Pink Mouse wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:26 am
cidjen wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:55 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:31 pm
this is not going to be easy
especially that Erika knows WHAT the fans were really after ...
(not just from that but from her own experience), wonder if Moeko is aware of that...?

Is this the kind of monstrous existence the fans give, that Miho was the victim of...?

This smells more and more like a trap... but not on Erika, but on Moeko instead, maybe Stability has enough of her fooling around and wants her out of that currently suspended existence, even if it means creating another Analogue.
I think it's time to point out the obvious. Stability is not Evil. Nor have they ever been prone to gratuitously evil things. It is unlikely that they would turn down win-win situations upon those occasions whenever such things cross their path. ^_^
There is not just one kind of Stability :)

You can have Good and Bad Stability, as you can have Good and Bad Chaos...

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by darrin » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:41 pm

Small Pink Mouse wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:26 am
I think it's time to point out the obvious. Stability is not Evil. Nor have they ever been prone to gratuitously evil things.
Can I ask what makes the observation "Stability is not Evil" likely, let alone "obvious"? The tern "stability" has occurred only twice in the comic so far; the first time Mugi says only that the Ninja organization is "part of" Stability, and the second time Ninjagran cuts off immediately after using the word. (It's likely but not 100% certain that she's even talking about Stability as an organization, as opposed to just saying something like "the stability of our family's position" or some other small-s stability phrase.) I remember paarfi a while back said that TPCD was also in Stability, but that was considered a reasonable assumption as opposed to something that had come out in-comic so far.

We haven't seen "Stability" (whatever it actually is) do anything yet, let alone enough things where I could be at all confident that they rarely or never do "gratuitously evil things". (Okay we've seen the Ninja doing things, but I would think the more important consideration is what the behavior of the actual Stability leadership, the ones calling the shots, would be, not necessarily the member organizations carrying out those orders.)

Not that I'm claiming they "are" evil. I'll admit to leaning that way (60% say vs 40% that they're actually not); but that's more based on dramatic reasons (Fred introducing a secret powerful conspiracy organization of Good Guys who are going to step in and solve all of Piro and Largo's problems is kinda less interesting than the opposite :lol: ) than anything in-comic. (There are other things I consider indicators, like Stability issuing a kill order on Miho; but someone on the opposite side of the fence who thinks Miho is Evil will consider this evidence in exactly the opposite direction. ;) )
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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by Invisigoth » Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:10 pm

No one who's evil is ever going to admit to being evil, they'll justify their actions with a fervor that might make you wonder if they're right.

Miho has freely admitted to doing very bad things to people who attempted to use her for their own ends and expressed some regret for those actions.

Miho is possibly the least evil character in the story since most all of her actions are those of a human sacrifice who's gone through countless deaths only to be resurrected just to die again and all for the entertainment of the masses

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by cidjen » Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:29 pm


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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by darrin » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:20 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:10 pm
No one who's evil is ever going to admit to being evil, they'll justify their actions with a fervor that might make you wonder if they're right.
Yeah, sure, I get that.

So you have to analyze based on the depicted actions of the characters or groups in question to work out their actual likely motives ("good" usually being a convenient shorthand for "generally positive / beneficial motives, modulo honest mistakes"; "evil" for "generally destructive"). I get that too.

What I don't get is what I've missed despite years of following this stuff that makes Stability "obviously not Evil", and what set of Stability's actions I've missed that makes it clear Stability could never be "prone to evil things". Again afaict we haven't "seen" Stability do anything (directly -- yes it's probably true that some of the things we have seen so far were Stability-initiated, but the questions I'm asking here are whether there's anything established that isn't so interpretation-based); and we have only heard Stability obliquely referred to by one and a half people (depending on whether Ninja-gran said "Stability" or just "stability"). Obviously I'm missing something, probably a lot -- but it should be easy in that case to point to strips where something relevant happened that I missed.

@cidjen: No offense but that "blue and orange" stuff helps even less in this regard. I'm not looking for a deep dive into the philosophy of morality, just for a few strip links (search ninja or otherwise). In lieu of that I would gladly accept, y'know, some kind of argument based at least generally on stuff we've seen in the comic. I don't see a tvtropes snipe hunt getting me any closer to that. (If you meant that the specific "Stability is obviously not Evil" statement was contingent on an idiosyncratic definition of "Evil", then a) that for my money would make "obviously" even more inappropriate; and b) the map is not the territory: if I say Stability is obviously kvrablibblian, and you ask which strips make me think so and why, then I doubt you'd be satisfied with a link pointing to an extended statement that srooglbluks are a completely different way of looking at the world than kvrablibblianism.)

In my more paranoid moments (i.e. 24/7 :roll: :lol:) I sometimes feel like MegaTokyo is actually the sequel to some other work that everyone else on the planet has read but which nobody ever discusses in front of me, except via these obliquely dropped "obviouslies".
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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by Invisigoth » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:34 pm

darrin, the reason that it's so difficult is that the story evolves organically from some function of Fred's brain which he has no conscious control or knowledge of. There are things that have fallen in to place that were hinted at by what he had originally thought to be throwaway lines in earlier strips.

In some ways it's like apophenia except the patterns are quite real and they fall in to place.

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by darrin » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:40 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:34 pm
the reason that it's so difficult is that the story evolves organically from some function of Fred's brain
All stories evolve organically from their authors' brains. I don't find that concept difficult, and I don't feel it's the story itself giving me difficulties here. If you're saying I'm too dumb to understand the indications that have been given in-comic that "Stability is obviously not Evil", or even to have those indications pointed out to me in retrospect, then I guess that's all there is to say about that.
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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by Invisigoth » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:08 pm

Oh no, I'm not saying that you or anyone is dumb. It's just that things that appear early in the story frequently show up later as significant because Fred's written an internal backstory for it

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by darrin » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:16 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:08 pm
things that appear early in the story frequently show up later as significant because Fred's written an internal backstory for it
I also already knew that (and is also something certainly not unique in literature to Fred); and I apologize for my ongoing obtuseness but I also don't consider it responsive to the question at hand.

If someone says "Fred has a backstory for X [that has not yet been revealed in-comic], therefore it is obvious in-comic that X", then they are using a definition of "obvious" very different from any I have ever been exposed to.
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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by cidjen » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:12 pm

geh...

we all make the backstories in our imaginations don't we? That's what we fans do.

It's fun, considering the Stuff Fred Said, aka sometimes Fred Herrings; It's even more fun to make up something that maybe aligns with his vision, or not, and see it being torn down (or not) by next comics. (quote)Don't ask me, how I know this.(/quote) Honestly I don't know that much about tropes stories manga and whatever; Here is to the stories that are as detailed as his drawings :)

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by BakaJedi » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:38 pm

🤨I'm ^certain^ I'm not the ^only^ one who couldn't help noticing that Moeko's nipples &
areola
are ^not^ visible (even though the ^parts^ of her breasts where they would be are ^exposed^)!! ¹ :o

🤔Let the speculation(s‹?›) about whether/how this actually is, or could be, part of the story begin ~ like how Erika would react, once she recovered enough from her shock to ^notice^. (Of course, whether or not they could be seen in the print version is something ^else^ to consider.😏)
〰️〰️〰️
¹We can only make some reasonable guesses about the likely reasons for why we `site-viewers can't see them (keeping it from being "`NS’FW", being the most obvious of course :roll: ).
Last edited by BakaJedi on Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by BakaJedi » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:19 pm

I wonder what Ririka's experience/s with Moeko (in coma) were like.
And what, if anything, did it have to do with her insisting that Erica should pay her(Moeko) a visit?

What would Yuki's experience in such a visit to Moeko be like?
🤔
Last edited by BakaJedi on Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by Invisigoth » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:46 pm

Yuki would try to save her

It would be bad

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by darrin » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:42 pm

BakaJedi wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:38 pm
🤨I'm ^certain^ I'm not the ^only^ one who couldn't help noticing [stuff about Moeko]
You're not; and most of what you'd pieced together was more or less confirmed in twitch chat / patreon postings plus discussion here.
"Externally", yes, the decision was said to be mainly to avoid any unpleasantness from certain quarters for publishing "non-family-friendly material"; the "un-self-censored" versions (containing the correct anatomical components you listed) were also posted on patreon.

"In-world", that is within the story not taking those kind of external issues into account, it was at least strongly hinted in this and the preceding comic (and consistent with the one where Moeko "appeared" to drowning Miho's subconscious -- unless that was just Miho halucinating, but hey) that Moeko is still (physically) lying comatose in bed (hence Largo saying he doesn't see what Erika does). What Erika is seeing is at the very least some kind of "projection" into Erika's mind of whatever part of Moeko's mind is still in there under the coma. Or possibly something "even more than that" (in the MG sense); Invisigoth for example has been calling it a "pocket world". Regardless of the details the point would be that Erika's neither seeing nor handling Moeko's "actual" body but Moeko's image of what she thinks her body ought to look like by now (given that she states she's been in the coma since a very young age and thus presumably looks quite different from what she did at the time).

Further bulletins as events unfold. ;)
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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:36 am

Rapierman wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:28 pm
Fred: Given the underlying story (now that I've seen enough of it), I'm willing to go along. Just give it an "NC-17" rating and move on.
Do not be a prude... this is not even close to NC-17.

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by maldrul » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:27 pm

BakaJedi wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:38 pm
🤨I'm ^certain^ I'm not the ^only^ one who couldn't help noticing that Moeko's nipples &
areola
are ^not^ visible (even though the ^parts^ of her breasts where they would be are ^exposed^)!! ¹ :o

🤔Let the speculation(s‹?›) about whether/how this actually is, or could be, part of the story begin ~ like how Erika would react, once she recovered enough from her shock to ^notice^. (Of course, whether or not they could be seen in the print version is something ^else^ to consider.😏)
〰️〰️〰️
¹We can only make some reasonable guesses about the likely reasons for why we `site-viewers can't see them (keeping it from being "`NS’FW", being the most obvious of course :roll: ).
One possible explanation could be that Moeko is stuck mid magical girl transformation, just at the point where her regular clothes have been stripped away and she has just grasped her magical device (the wand). Since these scenes are usually depicted with only implied nudity, you wouldn't see the areola. This would also explain why trying to dress her or take her wand away doesn't work.
Image

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by S1arburst » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:57 pm

NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:47 pm
So, to clarify, Moeko wants Erika to resume being an idol in order to finish Girl Phase so that Moeko herself can die peacefully, right?
That's my take on it. Interestingly, Moeko seems to be a bit mixed up about "out there". It kind of seems that shed doesn't have a well defined sense of where the boundries are between the story Erika was an actress for, and the world Erika lives in the rest of the time.

Very sad.
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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by BakaJedi » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:16 am

darrin wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:42 pm
BakaJedi wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:38 pm
🤨I'm ^certain^ I'm not the ^only^ one who couldn't help noticing [stuff about Moeko]

[✂️snip] the "un-self-censored" versions (containing the correct anatomical components you listed) were also posted on patreon. [✂️snip]
🤨 Unfortunately there's no way to know how long they'll ^stay^ there ~ given the (banking-)changes¹ which have led to funding institutions, like patreon (as banking clients) becoming, effectively, more… "prudish" about enforcement of their "community standards" rules. 🤬
darrin (continued↑):
[✂️snip] "In-world", that is within the story not taking those kind of external issues into account, What Erika is seeing is at the very least some kind of "projection" into Erika's mind of whatever part of Moeko's mind is still in there under the coma. Or possibly something "even more than that" (in the MG sense); Regardless of the details the point would be that Erika's neither seeing nor handling Moeko's "actual" body but Moeko's image of what she thinks her body ought to look like by now (given that she states s…he's been in the coma since a very young age and thus presumably looks quite different from what she did at the time).

[✂️snip✂️snip] ;)
🤨Kindergarten age children do know that they have "areola" (even if the ^word^ for them is not actually part of their vocabulary)
😒 It should not be ^that^ unusual for pre~^middle-school^_aged girls in Japan to know (and remember) what the ^nipples^ of teenage-girls &women ^look^ like (even if the only bare/exposed [female•]human nipples they'd ever seen, besides their ^own^, were their ^mother's^ [or whatever woman in the life(lives) of said girl(s) is actually/effectively raising said girl(s) in such a manner])!! :roll:
maldrul wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:27 pm
BakaJedi wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:38 pm
🤨I'm ^certain^ I'm not the ^only^ one who couldn't help noticing that Moeko's nipples &
areola
are ^not^ visible (even though the ^parts^ of her breasts where they would be are ^exposed^)!! :o
[✂️snip]
One possible explanation could be that Moeko is stuck mid magical girl transformation, [✂️snip]
[✂️snip] Since these scenes are usually depicted with only implied nudity, you wouldn't see the areola. [✂️snip]
This does not address the question of whether Erika would ^notice^, or how ^long^ it would take for her to ^do^ so



〰️〰️〰️〰️
¹Apparently some unintended consequences of legislation intended to help with fighting human-trafficking (and harm from ^sexual^-pedophilia*)
  • *An unfortunate side-effect of [no doubt rightious] efforts to stop [sexual-]pedophilia, combined with ignorance of any ^other^ kind [like the reletively harmless "Peter Pan" variety], has led to people seeing signs of the
    ^former^ in the ^latter^ 😠.

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Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by darrin » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:02 am

BakaJedi wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:16 am
🤨 Unfortunately there's no way to know how long they'll ^stay^ there ~ given the (banking-)changes¹ which have led to funding institutions, like patreon (as banking clients) becoming, effectively, more… "prudish" about enforcement of their "community standards" rules. 🤬
Guh, well that sucks. Guess I will need to be more aggressive about actually downloading stuff Fred does that I like.
🤨Kindergarten age children do know that they have "areola" (even if the ^word^ for them is not actually part of their vocabulary)
Yes of course; I didn't intend to imply otherwise, but what I wrote above was telegraphic enough that that probably wasn't clear.

Suppose you're asked to generate an "accurate" self-image (without anyone defining what they mean by that ;)), and further that you're hooked up to either a Star Trek-style thingy which scans your brain and generates a hologram of that image, OR to some Harry-Potter style "brainicus scanibus" that enlivens the image. (Fred has mechas, magical girls, and devices for electronically measuring the magical "energy" of the girls, so he can be pulling chunks from any part of that spectrum he pleases. Let's pretend it's not important for the moment.)

Would you remember, and decide to include, which asymmetries were present in which knee? Each and every scar and tiny defect accumulated on your hands over the past n years? What your gall bladder's shaped like? Me I would just about manage an xkcd-style stick figure. Others would no doubt be considerably more accurate -- still constrained though by what they decide is important to show.

My best guess would be that Moeko didn't consider those particular features "important" enough to manifest -- compared to more blatantly obvious properties like size and softness. (That doesn't attempt to answer why she would rank importances that way; we've only seen her for a couple of strips so far, so I certainly won't claim to have a good handle on her motives yet.) Or maybe she does remember and consider them important, but
remembers her "[her] ^mother's^ [or whatever woman in the life(lives) of said girl(s) is actually/effectively raising" her explaining that those are "private" parts; she's "pretending" to be "grown all up" and casual about the abstract shapes, but is (underneath?) actually still a bit shy about the particular identifying details.

Just guesses of course.

As for Erika, my guess would be she's still in the early stages of "what the heck is even going on", and there are no doubt lots of details obvious to us that are still skimming under her radar. Alternatively she has noticed, but has decided there's not much currently to be gained constructively by telling Largo about this. (Can you see her turning to him and saying "Hey check it out, she's got really big boobs but no nipples at all! Ain't that a hoot?" Funny perhaps but not really Erika's style; more of an Asako thing maybe?)

Also I had refrained from responding to this before but since BakaJedi brings up issues of "prudery" explicitly (ha ha):
Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:36 am
Rapierman wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:28 pm
Fred: Given the underlying story (now that I've seen enough of it), I'm willing to go along. Just give it an "NC-17" rating and move on.
Do not be a prude... this is not even close to NC-17.
To be fair, I don't think that Rapierman pointing out (correctly imho) that there are those out there who would stridently object to the current images (let alone the ones posted to Patreon), is any evidence of prudery on Rapierman's part. I interpreted Rapierman's statement as being a suggestion to slap the "highest" warning on it, thereby warning off those most likely to work themselves up into a lather for whatever reason. (I consider the risk of a "false positive", someone warned off by the (excessive) "NC-17" that would have stayed if it were a "more accurate" R or PG-13 or whatever, to be fairly small among Fred's likely audience, but could certainly be wrong about that.)

I'm not saying I advocate that position personally, but there are certainly good arguments to be made for it. Do you put a nice big accurate "Okay, this transformer is only 400 volts, and of course that's way less dangerous than those 100000V power lines you definitely shouldn't let your kids climb on; but this could still cause someone at the very least serious injury if they manage to touch it in the wrong way at the wrong time, so please don't climb the fence here and open the panel and go rooting around inside", and then wait for the first soccer mom to sue you when her dumb kid burns his hand? No, you just slap a "DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE" sign on it with lots of skulls and lightning bolts. An engineer doing the latter isn't an indication that they're "afraid of electricity".
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Eraden
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:08 pm

Re: [1560] A story that needs to be put away

Post by Eraden » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:20 am

Sigh, maybe I'm just too old to be as flustered and preoccupied by things such as casual nudity in a comic strip as some of you youngsters seem to be. I just can't figure out why there is so much focus on what I consider to be such a minor part of this particular strip. The nudity to me, is of little importance. What is important to me is the dialogue which is rather stark in painting a picture of a person who is losing touch with reality, if even she had a grasp on it to begin with. Moeko's nudity to me is like a tree in a painting of natural scenery. Perhaps necessary for composition but hardly the sole focus of the work.

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