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[1558] Getting through

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by eomdal » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:39 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:09 pm

Let me fall back to MMO mechanics. In the open world she's in a coma but she can bend reality to create instance where she is capable of moving and interacting and she can bring others with whom she has a strong connection into that pocket universe. Rather like Miho moving through the gaps in between.

Her ability to manipulate reality is why she's so dangerous
Thank you. This is the clearest description of the situation that I've read so far.
SD seems to no longer need the tinfoil hat that it had made from merciless hammering on Occam's Razor. This is a strange state of affairs. I do hope that it finds the need for it again someday.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Roamer » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:52 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:09 pm
Roamer wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:59 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:06 pm
Listen:

Magical Girls and Magic are real in MT

Miho can shadowstep through the "gaps in between" to move around and so can Piro.

There are powerful and dangerous kitsune

You can rent 'zilla's and pay in pork rinds

Moeko was able to intercept Miho before she could die and scold her for dying

But you get hung up over the fact that what Largo is seeing isn't what's really happening?
No. I got hung up over the fact that if she's able to move and talk in the physical world then she's by definition at least temporarily not in a coma. Which she stated she was. If she can actually interact with the world while physically shut down, that's pretty cool. But if she's aware and physically interacting with her surroundings, she's not comatose, which is why I asked.
Let me fall back to MMO mechanics. In the open world she's in a coma but she can bend reality to create instance where she is capable of moving and interacting and she can bring others with whom she has a strong connection into that pocket universe. Rather like Miho moving through the gaps in between.

Her ability to manipulate reality is why she's so dangerous
So her powers aren't those of a standard magical girl - her power suite more resembles that of Kyubey. I wonder if containing this much power helped contribute to her physical weakness, in addition to being stuck as Miho's MG. And if that's the nature of the power Miho attempted to control with Erika's fans, no wonder it almost cost Masamichi the city. Thanks for the clarification; now I'm really worried.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Arent » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:55 am

cidjen wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:35 pm
Arent wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:25 pm

She seems to be strongly exaggerating. For example, she says hayasaka almost "killed" her best friend. In truth she apparently just broke her nose. And then she says, "it did happen, right? I don't know, I was stuck in coma". Apparently, she is relying on third party information, maybe what fans posted over the internet about the incident. And those fans might have exaggerated and said she almost "killed" her best friend.

So I'm not sure whether you can take the "screwed all those guys" literally.

Erika herself also said that once here. She appeared to know what she was talking about, even if the damage was just broken nose.

Moeko's burst out with same wording may be coming from that one actually... This seems to be a very deep link. Like Moeko was the subconscious of Erika since... she fell unconscious. Or something like that...
You're right. I could argue that Hayasaka herself might exaggerate as well, but I'm not sure how likely that is. I also assumed that Kimiko actually prevented her to do anything stupid at that love hotel, but that was my personal interpretation.

I do agree with HorusHound that if it is not exaggeration, it is a bit dark. Until now I had assumed she just had some loose flings & broke her friends nose.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Ubu » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:06 am

Roamer wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:59 pm
No. I got hung up over the fact that if she's able to move and talk in the physical world then she's by definition at least temporarily not in a coma. Which she stated she was. If she can actually interact with the world while physically shut down, that's pretty cool. But if she's aware and physically interacting with her surroundings, she's not comatose, which is why I asked.
Recent evidence (just published this week) indicates that as many as 10% of "comatose" patients are actually conscious, but can't move or speak. They're effectively trapped in their own heads. Talk about a special kind of hell... but combine that with the ability to mentally communicate, influence, and even modify the world. And a slightly, ah... bitter personality.

Would Stability move to have her euthanized in fear? And could they even succeed if they tried, given her powers? For that matter, since it seems to be cannon that they've tried to remove her wand and failed, (resorting to the lockout/tagout), do they actually realize she's conscious?

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by BetaCygnus » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:57 am

Been away for a few days.

Came back. Wow comic update!!! =)

…and yes, the wand works very well — and hey! Erika-perception! But if she is doing Moeko’s voice, I guess Largo will have heard that bit Erika would rather not talk about…

I am now wondering if the wand already influenced Erika before her "I wish…" — or only after.

I’m late – sorry, not going to read up on all the forum on this update so far. =)

This page is quite clear in itself, as to what is happening. Well done.

=)

Thank you, Fred!!! =)
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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Roamer » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:34 am

Arent wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:55 am
cidjen wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:35 pm
Arent wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:25 pm

She seems to be strongly exaggerating. For example, she says hayasaka almost "killed" her best friend. In truth she apparently just broke her nose. And then she says, "it did happen, right? I don't know, I was stuck in coma". Apparently, she is relying on third party information, maybe what fans posted over the internet about the incident. And those fans might have exaggerated and said she almost "killed" her best friend.

So I'm not sure whether you can take the "screwed all those guys" literally.

Erika herself also said that once here. She appeared to know what she was talking about, even if the damage was just broken nose.

Moeko's burst out with same wording may be coming from that one actually... This seems to be a very deep link. Like Moeko was the subconscious of Erika since... she fell unconscious. Or something like that...
You're right. I could argue that Hayasaka herself might exaggerate as well, but I'm not sure how likely that is. I also assumed that Kimiko actually prevented her to do anything stupid at that love hotel, but that was my personal interpretation.

I do agree with HorusHound that if it is not exaggeration, it is a bit dark. Until now I had assumed she just had some loose flings & broke her friends nose.
There's always been a bit of self-destructiveness in Erika; look at how furiously she tried to drive Largo away initially, and her casual use of violence in non-appropriate (but amusing) settings. Going on a bender and throwing herself at guys would fit in very well with that, so hearing about this didn't surprise me, it just filled in some blanks in her and Kimiko's backstory.
Ubu wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:06 am
Roamer wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:59 pm
No. I got hung up over the fact that if she's able to move and talk in the physical world then she's by definition at least temporarily not in a coma. Which she stated she was. If she can actually interact with the world while physically shut down, that's pretty cool. But if she's aware and physically interacting with her surroundings, she's not comatose, which is why I asked.
Recent evidence (just published this week) indicates that as many as 10% of "comatose" patients are actually conscious, but can't move or speak. They're effectively trapped in their own heads. Talk about a special kind of hell... but combine that with the ability to mentally communicate, influence, and even modify the world. And a slightly, ah... bitter personality.

Would Stability move to have her euthanized in fear? And could they even succeed if they tried, given her powers? For that matter, since it seems to be cannon that they've tried to remove her wand and failed, (resorting to the lockout/tagout), do they actually realize she's conscious?
Yeah, I know. Locked-in syndrome is one of the most terrifying things I can imagine undergoing. It's why I imagine it making Moeko psychotic. As to Stability, if they knew she was a reality manipulator, I suspect they would have eliminated her regardless of collateral damage. They haven't, so either they literally can't, or she kept that hidden. Or maybe Stability's own SEP field can't deal with that kind of power. As to knowing she's conscious, I suspect they don't care. After all, as powerful as she was it seems likely that Stability put her there.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by paarfi » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:32 am

Roamer wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:34 am
As to Stability, if they knew she was a reality manipulator, I suspect they would have eliminated her regardless of collateral damage. They haven't, so either they literally can't, or she kept that hidden. Or maybe Stability's own SEP field can't deal with that kind of power. As to knowing she's conscious, I suspect they don't care. After all, as powerful as she was it seems likely that Stability put her there.
From what I can see so far, Stability seems like an organization that is trying to do the right thing. Masamichi and the TPCD are often one arm, and Meimi and the Ninj4 clans appear to be willing contractors. These aren't scenery-chewing villains.

Any organization that is responsible for public safety is going to struggle with the difficulties of properly balancing prevention and enforcement vs civil and individual rights. We see this nearly every day with our muggle law enforcement, military, and intelligence organizations. It's not an easy thing. Fortunately, many of us here in the muggle world live in countries where those organizations are often subject to public scrutiny via a free press and control via democratic governments that can be voted out if they get it too wrong.

The concern about Stability is that they appear to be a kind of informal, secretive, back-room, organization that has the support of officialdom but doesn't have the formal democratic controls that should go with it. That's where you end up with the disregard for individual rights that you can find in the less democratic parts of the world today. And that's also where you can end up with these unaccountable organizations turning into Star Chambers and doing things like ordering Miho's death, all for what they believe is the greater good.

This kind of villain is harder to write well than someone who just screams EVIL and tortures bunnies for the fun of it. But when it is done well, I tend to prefer it.

Another parallel would be things like the death squads in some latin american countries years ago and similar ugly (and all too frequent) examples in plenty of other muggle countries, past and present. But for an organization like Stability to go that far often requires seeing the victims as the "other", whether it's communist, or rebels, or muslim, or whatever. But we've seen that Meimi and Masamichi are happily married, magical girls are hugely popular on TV, and Ririka is happy to tell the mercenaries that Yuki is a magical girl. So I don't think that applies here.

The TPCD, and by extension Stability, are afraid of "catastrophic grade" magical girls like Meoko, and for understandable reasons. They are threat to stability (small s). At the same time, Stability seems happy to just manage the situation, much like they do with zombie invasions. The TPCD says that there are 3 potentially catastrophic grade emergent magical girls. The two other than Moeko were doing after-school activities and the TPCD was just keeping an eye on them. If they're ok with letting the other two do that, I don't see why they'd feel the need to put Moeko into a coma (or even how they'd do that). Moeko may be even more powerful than those other two, but once you've hit "catastrophic grade", how much more powerful really makes any difference?

So I don't think Stability put Moeko into her coma. If they thought her a real and genuine danger to stability, they'd have eliminated her like they're trying to do with Miho. These are people who still see themselves as trying to do the right thing, even when (as with Miho) they're really not. Putting a little girl into a locked-in coma doesn't seem like the approach people like this would take.

But maybe I'm just being a little naive there. I'm pretty sure we'll find out. :D
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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by hoolibas » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:43 am

So maybe not a coma, but Moeko is suffering from Locked-In Syndrome?

Except she's really not, because Erika and Moeko are linked telepathically?

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Zandra » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:28 pm

HorusHound wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:32 pm
"And then you screwed all those guys" Really? REALLY? Why the heck would you make that a part of her lore? What the hell were you thinking? You've just lost yourself a reader. That was horrible and I can't believe you'd essentially make her a goddamn whore.
As a former member of the troll brigade let me just say, Dont let the door hit you where the good lord split you then.ciao.
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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by chemi » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:39 pm

cidjen wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:35 pm
Arent wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:25 pm

She seems to be strongly exaggerating. For example, she says hayasaka almost "killed" her best friend. In truth she apparently just broke her nose. And then she says, "it did happen, right? I don't know, I was stuck in coma". Apparently, she is relying on third party information, maybe what fans posted over the internet about the incident. And those fans might have exaggerated and said she almost "killed" her best friend.

So I'm not sure whether you can take the "screwed all those guys" literally.

Erika herself also said that once here. She appeared to know what she was talking about, even if the damage was just broken nose.
Something to note. That was what Kimiko said to Piro about the incident, who was a relative stranger at the time.

For all we know, Erika did quite a bit more. Just sayin'.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by cidjen » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:48 pm

chemi wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:39 pm


For all we know, Erika did quite a bit more. Just sayin'.
Kimiko also said something along the lines of "that's nothing compared to what Erika put me through", when Largo b4rf3d on her. Now we know what she meant.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by HakuRyoku » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:28 pm

Why do I find amusement in watching people fret over their perceptions of a character when the nature of that character is revealed in a way that doesn't match their perception? Saw the same responses with Lady Sylvanas's character in the current expansion of WoW, and just like with Erika here, the hints were there in her past too.
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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Ubu » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:40 pm

HakuRyoku wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:28 pm
Why do I find amusement in watching people fret over their perceptions of a character when the nature of that character is revealed in a way that doesn't match their perception? Saw the same responses with Lady Sylvanas's character in the current expansion of WoW, and just like with Erika here, the hints were there in her past too.
Because fools being fools over trivial crap amuses you. Personally, I find them annoying; I don't suffer them; if I'm moved to action, it's to make them suffer. More. that is.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Ubu » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:45 pm

Oh, and something else that strikes me as odd. Largo says, "I am filtering my perceptions." That's a strong hint that, at some level, he's aware of SEP or SER fields... and has deliberately invoked his for self-protection. Now that's the mind-blower.

Fred packed an incredible amount into this strip.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Invisigoth » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:25 pm

Ubu wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:45 pm
Oh, and something else that strikes me as odd. Largo says, "I am filtering my perceptions." That's a strong hint that, at some level, he's aware of SEP or SER fields... and has deliberately invoked his for self-protection. Now that's the mind-blower.

Fred packed an incredible amount into this strip.
Largo is on the outside and he can't look in. He can see Erika and he can see her holding the covers but he doesn't perceive anything past that.

As for the "doing her voice" thing, she was doing the Moeko voice as soon as she entered the room and is still in character so that's what he's hearing there.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Ubu » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:17 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:25 pm
Ubu wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:45 pm
Oh, and something else that strikes me as odd. Largo says, "I am filtering my perceptions." That's a strong hint that, at some level, he's aware of SEP or SER fields... and has deliberately invoked his for self-protection. Now that's the mind-blower.

Fred packed an incredible amount into this strip.
Largo is on the outside and he can't look in. He can see Erika and he can see her holding the covers but he doesn't perceive anything past that.

As for the "doing her voice" thing, she was doing the Moeko voice as soon as she entered the room and is still in character so that's what he's hearing there.
I don't think it's can't. I think it's refuses to. We've all joked about "Largo-vision" and seeing things that aren't there, but remember - he's against this meeting. He's concerned for Erika and you know he'd jump in to save her if she needed it (and maybe even if she didn't). He's resisting Moeko. Evidence: 428 432

Especially the second: "Largo was interesting because he seemed to be completely unaffected by the hidden emotional statistics." Not overt evidence of the same thing, but a hint that Largo may also have reality-bending powers. I can't find the right strip, but if we consider the one with the cardboard Phearbots canon, then he most definitely does.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Invisigoth » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:44 pm

Oh for dawg sake...you really for one minute think that Largo would deliberately filter out what's happening when he's against the whole thing and is obviously antagonistic.

Moeko has Erika inside a cozy little pocket universe where she can sit up and talk to Erika and Largo was not invited to the meeting

What Largo is seeing is what Moeko wants him to see in order to keep him out of the discussion.

This is of course the very first time that we've seen the Largo POV be entirely manipulated and controlled and effectively seen him be controlled.

IMHO Meimi and Yuki both are able to manipulate reality in a similar way as well. Yuki made a freaking zombified zilla' poof and disappeared from TPCD tracking. Moeko is even more extreme in that she's in a coma and has to use those talents to do anything at all

Largo may well be using his regular filters but they do not apply when dealing with Moeko

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by cidjen » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:49 am

Somehow after reading @Invisigoth, I got that insane picture flash before my eyes...

Moeko tapping her head with a wand and saying 'It's in your head, in your head'
to the tune of The Cranberries 'Zombie' chorus part...

paging @Darrin... feeling imagination barf incoming...

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:06 pm

Poor Erika, her grip on the steering wheel of her life is slipping thru her fingers as Moeko completes her dominance over Erika's spirit. Ample perky boobs aside... I have a bad feeling about this Moeko.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by BetaCygnus » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:18 am

BetaCygnus wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:57 am
But if she is doing Moeko’s voice, I guess Largo will have heard that bit Erika would rather not talk about…
Oh yeah. I forgot — Moeko’s text is Japanese — Largo didn’t understand what Erika was saying there.

=)
HorusHound wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:32 pm
Why the heck would you make that a part of her lore? What the hell were you thinking? You've just lost yourself a reader. That was horrible and I can't believe you'd essentially make her a goddamn whore.
I assume, HorusHound, that you are addressing Fred here. Whatever he may have been thinking, to me it comes across as exactly the same line of thought he has displayed all along: he wants his fantasy characters to be as realistic and believable as possible.

So. Erika is embarrassed by something in her past that she is not particularly proud of.

Of course, you are more righteous than Jesus Himself, Who showed true, realistic, genuine *care* for people who were in bad places in their lives. Jesus didn’t call a certain woman a "g**damn whore" — He addressed her with respect, calling her, "woman".
Though He did address the bad issue in her life directly, He did *not* condemn her — and He made quite a statement of that.

So, if you think you are in any position to condemn Fred’s in-story, non-real character Erika for having a quite realistic past as real people who really live a life tend to end up having, I think you are not being very realistic about yourself.

Or are you worthy of throwing that first stone at Erika?

If you are wise, you will indeed go now.
Just like those Pharisees who may or may not have understood what Jesus meant by doodling in the dirt.

Good-bye!
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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Ningen 2 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:23 am

Apart from my ongoing separate worlds theory (which I think this strip strongly supports), I think you guys have it backwards.

Largo is not filtering out "reality", not is Moeko blinding him. She is dominating Erika, probably with the aid of the connection established by Girl Phase. Most of what we see here is Erika-vision, with the exception of panels 5 and 6 which are Largo / consensus.

All of the conversation and Moeko sitting up are a direct contradiction of the consensus view of Moeko as a girl in a coma. This is happening in Erika's head at Moeko's instigation. Erika needs to realize that and get a grip, fast!
Image Ningen pity unfortunate individual.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Invisigoth » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:56 am

Ningen 2 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:23 am
Apart from my ongoing separate worlds theory (which I think this strip strongly supports), I think you guys have it backwards.

Largo is not filtering out "reality", not is Moeko blinding him. She is dominating Erika, probably with the aid of the connection established by Girl Phase. Most of what we see here is Erika-vision, with the exception of panels 5 and 6 which are Largo / consensus.

All of the conversation and Moeko sitting up are a direct contradiction of the consensus view of Moeko as a girl in a coma. This is happening in Erika's head at Moeko's instigation. Erika needs to realize that and get a grip, fast!
This is where you're missing the over view and of course it's not been laid out in the strip yet aside from the obvious fact that Moeko hasn't got a stitch of clothes on and she's holding her wand.

Moeko's pocket universes allow her to influence the main reality line. Put her in a hospital gown as you would with any long term care patient and it vanishes leaving Moeko totally nekkid under the sheets. Try to lock up or destroy the wand and it's back in her hand before you know it.

Moeko would LOVE to be able to get out into the main stream of reality where she'd freely use her power to change things but in the main stream she's still in a coma.

Currently Erika is like Moeko's hospital gown or her wand, she's in both for the time being. If Moeko really wanted to she could remove Erika from the main timeline for an indefinite period but she's not that malicious yet

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Ningen 2 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:48 pm

None of which seems to contradict my main point, which was that it is Erika rather then Largo who is under the 'fluence here.

It is entirely possible that Largo is the most grounded person in the room at this point. Now there's a first!
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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Invisigoth » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:23 pm

Naw, Largo just wasn't invited to the meeting. Also what Moeko is doing is every bit as real as it gets and that's why she's such a danger as she could potentially end reality

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by cidjen » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:52 pm

Aye, creation and sustaining of pocket universes requires energy of a small star...
(Or a black hole)
(In our reality that is)
(In the Game it's just another virtual instance of the game engine with the same data as the Megatokyo. Question is, is Moeko admin level.)

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