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[1558] Getting through

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by paarfi » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:24 am

Taking a stab at how this all works in practice.

Story -> CharacterAnalogue -> RealPerson -> Performance -> Fans
So in this particular case, we have:
TragicDyingGirl -> Miho -> Moeko -> Erika -> FanHorde
but there's also:
MagicalGirl -> ??? -> Ririka -> PrettyLittleBlondeGirl -> AnimeFans
MagicalGril -> ??? -> Lavandula -> LovliesOfLavender -> AnimeFans
and presumably many others.

The story flows from left to right, and power or "life" flows back to the left, which is what powers magical girls (and presumably others) in general and keeps Miho alive specifically.

We know that Moeko is a "potentially catastrophic grade" magical girl. I suppose some of that might be because she embodies two Story archetypes (TragicDyingGirl and MagicalGirl) and that caused a stronger resonance with fans that provided more power feedback. Though storytelling often doesn't work that way. Maybe Erika's skillz helped there too. The more the fans like the anime, the more power feedback. This might also explain Erika's semi-magical ability to unlock handcuffs [1110].

That doesn't explain Yuki though, who doesn't have any anime or real fans yet, other than Yutaka. Presumably some of the power that gets back to the Story is used as to power new magical girls who don't yet have Fans. If it didn't do that, then a Story would die out.

There appears to be the potential for a mental connection between the different parts of that chain. Miho seems well aware of the portrayals of her Story, as with Kotone and Miho's awareness of Kimiko when Kimiko was pretending to be Miho. Kimiko's connection with Kotone is easier to explain in muggle terms, but it could easily be more. We can see that as well with Moeko's ability to talk to Miho and Erika. Reading between the lines [1500], I'd think Moeko can talk to Ririka and other magical girls as well, and maybe having a common Story is what permits that.

I think the long chain between Story and Fans provides a few things. It allows for some variety -- even a good Story can get dull and old if told the same way every time. It allows for creative interpretation, which allows it to be told more effectively, as with Sayuri's writing for GirlPhase [1113]. It allows for the hiding of things that might make the Story less appealing to fans, like the Lovelies real age [1418], Ririka's real appearance and attitude [1499], and Miho's full real story [1326].

But just as importantly, I think that long chain provides some needed isolation and dampening. The love of the Fans is powerful and can easily get out of control [597]. That's why we also have Stability, the TPCD, MagicalGirl Detectors, the Notspital, and such. It's a public danger, and something that needs managed. I think that's why Miho was so terrified of the Fans finding all those pictures that Ping took and building a "real me" [1287]. That would remove the buffer layers that she normally has between her and most Fans. She does have some direct already with the folks at the CoE like Kenji and Mugi, but that's a small and manageable. To expose her directly to the love of the FanHorde would probably be a disaster. That seems to be what happened at the school [1386]. And that is likely what happened even more so a couple of years back when Erika quit and Miho stepped in directly [800]. Masamichi says it was "the one time I almost lost Tokyo" [806].

edit: fixed some things and added the school link
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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by cidjen » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:55 am

Maybe Yuki is powered by the story of her mum? Granted, Meimi might not have been overly magical, but her story was universally liked (it inspired the Author so ...).


Makes one wonder, would the male offspring of MG's be also magical?
(For one, Yuuji seems to be a little magical, I know Yutaka is a chewtoy, but maybe he is too ... He's got insane recuperating powers anyway)

Also Miho sie say she was never 'that (sick, dying) girl'.

Looks to me like someone (a bad or novice or agenda writer) wrote the story so that Miho's character got confused and merged with Moeko's. That explains quite a few things...

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by paarfi » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:02 am

cidjen wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:55 am
Maybe Yuki is powered by the story of her mum? Granted, Meimi might not have been overly magical, but her story was universally liked (it inspired the Author so ...).
It might have helped, but I don't think that would hold in general. If it did, then being a magical girl would be hereditary, and the TPCD would likely be taking a different approach to managing them. That Story needs a constant supply of new magical girls to replace the old ones that have lost their freshness and ability to appeal to the Fans. That would be harder and less effective if it could only make that happen to the children of existing magical girls. I wouldn't be surprised if the form that Yuki's power took (phantom thief) was because of Meimi though.
cidjen wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:55 am
Also Miho sie say she was never 'that (sick, dying) girl'.
Looks to me like someone (a bad or novice or agenda writer) wrote the story so that Miho's character got confused and merged with Moeko's. That explains quite a few things...
Miho's real story wasn't the TragicDyingGirl, but her Story is. That's an importantly distinction. Miho's Story is what makes Moeko's story powerful and appealing to the Fans. Miho is the archetype for that Story.

See what Junko's dad said about it in [1240].
Junko: <So... what is her story? What happened to her?>
Mr. Ibara: <Oh, no one knows that.>
Mr. Ibara: <It's not important.>
Mr. Ibara: <Tohya is an original, sweetie, the source of a particularly potent and enduing story type.>
Mr. Ibara: <Whatever happened to her, the emotive response to her story was such that it grew a life of its own.>
Mr. Ibara: <The more people it touched, the more her story grew...>
Mr. Ibara: <Until her character became far more real than she ever was.>
Mr. Ibara: <It isn't what happened to her that people want to experience over and over.>


Miho's real story isn't important. It's her Story that every knows and cares about, and that Story is TragicDyingGirl. Moeko is just one of the latest RealPersons to embody that Story and serve as a platform for a Performance (Erika/GirlPhase) that appeals to the Fans.
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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Zandra » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:39 am

:ph34r:

Boobs. That is all.
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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Invisigoth » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:08 am

garapagosu wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:23 am
SER Field: Somebody Else's Reality
Using the SCP sort of rating system Moeko is a ZK - CLASS entity meaning she has the potential to cause an end-of reality event

Yeah this is really dark but with a really cute smile and bewbs
SpoilerShow
As it happens Yuki has that potential as well

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by cidjen » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:49 am

This still seems to make better sense of the collected data if Miho wasn't the same person as Moeko.

Also random observation: Moeko says 'i'm just a girl stuck in here' *taps head with her magic wand*.

Is It Moeko's head? Or Erika's? So many questions?

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Liminaut » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:25 pm

paarfi wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:24 am
Taking a stab at how this all works in practice.

Story -> CharacterAnalogue -> RealPerson -> Performance -> Fans
So in this particular case, we have:
TragicDyingGirl -> Miho -> Moeko -> Erika -> FanHorde
but there's also:
MagicalGirl -> ??? -> Ririka -> PrettyLittleBlondeGirl -> AnimeFans
MagicalGril -> ??? -> Lavandula -> LovliesOfLavender -> AnimeFans
and presumably many others.
Is there an Original MagicalGirl out there someplace?

Is somebody going to start playing Yuki?

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Mamma Peach » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:27 pm

It sounds more like the magical girl (or original) powers the story rather than the other way around, and yes the "managing" of the story probably helps control the fan feedback. The power of all things otaku is very real too...
I suspect that Moeko's body is pretty functionless making her mind more powerful, how ever that works out as her being a magical girl. That she can almost physically be present (in a mental sense) with both Erica (who voice acted her) and Miho (who usurped Erica's place) makes sense. Though how that works with Largo hearing voices but seeing nothing is unclear. Is he actually hearing Moeko or Erica speaking for Moeko. Either way is kind of weird.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Roamer » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:03 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:52 am
No, this isn't just happening in Erika's head. This isn't mind control nor is it possession.

Largo is completely blind to what is happening and it's not an SEP because Largo thinks everything is his problem.
OK, if it's not in Erika's head, but Moeko is still in a coma, how is she moving & talking? Not disagreeing, just confused.
paarfi wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:24 am
Taking a stab at how this all works in practice.

*Clip*
-That's equal parts awesome and fascinating Paarfi, thanks for all the work there...I like the flexibility this allows in telling the story, and you make a good case for why Miho was terrified about the photos. Direct connect between an analogue and the fans may be too powerful for both, as you point out regarding Miho and Erika's fans.
-Agree that Erika's skills probably increase the amount of power flowing back into Moeko. We already know that influencers can cause riots, and to quote Xykon, 'Power equals Power' [OOTS # 657].
-As far as Yuki, goes, you've gotta have each step in order. Can't have a performer or fans without the RealPerson first. And I don't think Yukata is really a fan, per se - he knew her before she became a MG. Each of the MGs who escaped the role seem to have done so by having a strong bond with someone who wasn't a fan. True, we've only seen a couple, but they're both 1) slightly 'off', and 2) in strong relationships despite this. In this light, Yukata's her escape hatch rather than a TruFan.
Last edited by Roamer on Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by paarfi » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:09 pm

Roamer wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:03 pm
OK, if it's not in Erika's head, but Moeko is still in a coma, how is she moving & talking? Not disagreeing, just confused.
It's magic. And the connection that Moeko and Erika share because of the story.
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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Arent » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:23 pm

paarfi wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:24 am
The story flows from left to right, and power or "life" flows back to the left, which is what powers magical girls (and presumably others) in general and keeps Miho alive specifically.
I always had the impression Miho was a special case. Was there any point were it was implied that *all* magical girls are "powered" by their fans?

In fact, I always got a "serial experiments lain" vibe from Miho. Maybe because she first showed up in an online computer game or because she seems to be able to alter reality or manifest herself. If you follow the story of serial experiments lain closely, you notice that her "online" personalit(y/ies) also developed a life on their own that was even acting evilly or aggressive towards the real lain.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by paarfi » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:54 pm

Arent wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:23 pm
I always had the impression Miho was a special case. Was there any point were it was implied that *all* magical girls are "powered" by their fans?
Welcome Arent!

No, that's inference on my part. We saw that the Analogue Support Facility [1271] (aka Notspital) was larger than needed for just Miho. And we've also seen Mr Ibara talk about "analogues like Tohya Miho" [1239], so we know Miho isn't the only Character Analogue out there. There must be Character Analogues for other Story archetypes as well.

We also know that Miho is the Character Analogue for the Tragic Dying Girl story, which (with the exception of Moeko and maybe a few others) isn't the story for Magical Girls in general. Since Magical Girls are themselves a powerful and common story type, I'm guessing that they have a Character Analogue as well and that they fit into the same structure than Miho fits into.

We know that Miho continued existence is powered by the Fan's love of her story [1327], and it makes sense that her special abilities are powered by the same source. And if that's the case, then it makes sense that magical girls are also powered by the Fans, especially given all the love for magical girl anime, which as we've see with Ririka are often based on real magical girls [1499].

The only real problem I can see with that idea is the "new magical girl without fans yet" one (aka the Yuki problem). But like I said before, I think you can explain that by the Magical Girl Story using some of the Fan power it's gathered to power new magical girls, who eventually get Fans which pays off the initial power investment and more. It's kind of like funding startups.

So most of this part of it is speculation on my part, but I think it fits. Or at least I think so until one of y'all pokes a quality hole in it, or until Fred drops a comic bombshell that blows this scaffolding apart. :D
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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Voyager » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:23 pm

Roamer wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:03 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:52 am
No, this isn't just happening in Erika's head. This isn't mind control nor is it possession.

Largo is completely blind to what is happening and it's not an SEP because Largo thinks everything is his problem.
OK, if it's not in Erika's head, but Moeko is still in a coma, how is she moving & talking? Not disagreeing, just confused.
She is *not* moving and talking.Note that the only thing she has "interacted" with that Largo can see are the bed sheets, and it is Erika who is moving those.

"Why are you uncovering her?"

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Arent » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:09 pm

paarfi wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:54 pm
We know that Miho continued existence is powered by the Fan's love of her story [1327], and it makes sense that her special abilities are powered by the same source. And if that's the case, then it makes sense that magical girls are also powered by the Fans, especially given all the love for magical girl anime, which as we've see with Ririka are often based on real magical girls [1499]
I always speculated that it would be similar to Serial Experiments Lain, that Moeko can manifest herself either in the internet or in the real world, but she needs "followers" or simply data storages to store that character somewhere. Which would imply Moeko can directly access memories and perceptions of people, which apparently she can.

That was also the case in the beginning of Lain, later on she developed the power to exist on her own & alter physical reality directly.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by HorusHound » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:32 pm

"And then you screwed all those guys" Really? REALLY? Why the heck would you make that a part of her lore? What the hell were you thinking? You've just lost yourself a reader. That was horrible and I can't believe you'd essentially make her a goddamn whore.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by paarfi » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:55 pm

HorusHound wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:32 pm
"And then you screwed all those guys" Really? REALLY? Why the heck would you make that a part of her lore?
This has been hinted at by Kimiko for some time now.
[718]. - "This is nothing compared to what Erika used to put me through."
[728] - "I haven't been to a love hotel since you busted me in the face for dragging your drunk butt out of one."

Erika was in a bad place after Hitoshi called it off. Drinking heavily. Violence toward her best friend. Sleeping around. That doesn't make her a whore. You have to take into account Moeko's way of talking about these things. As we saw previously when she was talking to Miho, Moeko can be kind of harsh. Fortunately, Erika is in a better place now.

But anyway, if it still ends up bothering you that much, then best of luck and thanks for supporting. I hope you find a webcomic you like better.
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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by hoolibas » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:20 pm

Aww, Paarfi beat me to it for the most part. But I will say, "HorusHound, what the effing hell?!"

I will be nicer than I'd planned. You've either been selectively reading, or fooling yourself.

Hell, when she first started dealing with Largo, she OUTRIGHT ASKED him if he would go away if she slept with him.

If you're going to pick favorites, at least have your facts straight.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Arent » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:25 pm

HorusHound wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:32 pm
"And then you screwed all those guys" Really? REALLY? Why the heck would you make that a part of her lore? What the hell were you thinking? You've just lost yourself a reader. That was horrible and I can't believe you'd essentially make her a goddamn whore.
She seems to be strongly exaggerating. For example, she says hayasaka almost "killed" her best friend. In truth she apparently just broke her nose. And then she says, "it did happen, right? I don't know, I was stuck in coma". Apparently, she is relying on third party information, maybe what fans posted over the internet about the incident. And those fans might have exaggerated and said she almost "killed" her best friend.

So I'm not sure whether you can take the "screwed all those guys" literally.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by HorusHound » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:31 pm

hoolibas wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:20 pm
Aww, Paarfi beat me to it for the most part. But I will say, "HorusHound, what the effing hell?!"

I will be nicer than I'd planned. You've either been selectively reading, or fooling yourself.

Hell, when she first started dealing with Largo, she OUTRIGHT ASKED him if he would go away if she slept with him.

If you're going to pick favorites, at least have your facts straight.
Where exactly did I get my "facts wrong"? I complained about it being said that she slept with several men. That was stated in the comic, so no fact about what I complained about was wrong. Regardless, about my post, that's my stance, and I have every right to it. Yes, it has been hinted in the past that she wasn't a virgin, but that wasn't my problem. Nowhere did it ever imply she "screwed a bunch of guys". There is no way I could have realized such a thing up until this point. My feelings on the matter may not coincide with yours, but I still have the right to them. Not everyone is going to like everything, and it just so happens that I dislike this so much it completely turned me off to the series. That's just how it is.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by hoolibas » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:54 pm

HorusHound wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:31 pm
Where exactly did I get my "facts wrong"? I complained about it being said that she slept with several men. That was stated in the comic, so no fact about what I complained about was wrong. Regardless, about my post, that's my stance, and I have every right to it. Yes, it has been hinted in the past that she wasn't a virgin, but that wasn't my problem. Nowhere did it ever imply she "screwed a bunch of guys". There is no way I could have realized such a thing up until this point. My feelings on the matter may not coincide with yours, but I still have the right to them. Not everyone is going to like everything, and it just so happens that I dislike this so much it completely turned me off to the series. That's just how it is.
You pretty much got it wrong from the beginning.

You called Erika a whore. A whore does it for money, maybe it's me being silly and pedantic, but honestly, you're doing the exact same and I have no love lost if you leave the community immediately.

You do indeed have the right to your opinion, everyone does and my typical snarky retort to that aside, my hate comes from the fact that you created a new (or secondary) account, just to voice your special little snowflake opinion. You could have just disliked it and left, but no, you had to make sure that the world knew exactly how you felt.

For the record, this is not really an uncommon psychological response from people who suffer break ups from an intense relationship; you can even look into that on the internet (I've personally known people who, after getting dumped, felt unwanted and went a lil bit off the deep end in order to fulfill that need of being wanted). Erika isn't even the most promiscuous person in MT, but I am not going into that any further as Fred hasn't made that info open to the public (nor may ever).

You don't have to like it and I will not even try to force you to accept it, Erika is who she is. You are who you are, and I am the MT resident asshole.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Invisigoth » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:06 pm

Listen:

Magical Girls and Magic are real in MT

Miho can shadowstep through the "gaps in between" to move around and so can Piro.

There are powerful and dangerous kitsune

You can rent 'zilla's and pay in pork rinds

Moeko was able to intercept Miho before she could die and scold her for dying

But you get hung up over the fact that what Largo is seeing isn't what's really happening?

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by cidjen » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:35 pm

Arent wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:25 pm

She seems to be strongly exaggerating. For example, she says hayasaka almost "killed" her best friend. In truth she apparently just broke her nose. And then she says, "it did happen, right? I don't know, I was stuck in coma". Apparently, she is relying on third party information, maybe what fans posted over the internet about the incident. And those fans might have exaggerated and said she almost "killed" her best friend.

So I'm not sure whether you can take the "screwed all those guys" literally.

Erika herself also said that once here. She appeared to know what she was talking about, even if the damage was just broken nose.

Moeko's burst out with same wording may be coming from that one actually... This seems to be a very deep link. Like Moeko was the subconscious of Erika since... she fell unconscious. Or something like that...

@Invisigoth, re the 'gaps in between' this is a funny one, this could be read as the 'gaps' or 'inconsistencies' in scenarios she's moving inbetween. Quite a funny aspect that one is. You know, gaps/inconsistencies of the story paths that can be exploited... by a player with good enough level.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Roamer » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:59 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:06 pm
Listen:

Magical Girls and Magic are real in MT

Miho can shadowstep through the "gaps in between" to move around and so can Piro.

There are powerful and dangerous kitsune

You can rent 'zilla's and pay in pork rinds

Moeko was able to intercept Miho before she could die and scold her for dying

But you get hung up over the fact that what Largo is seeing isn't what's really happening?
No. I got hung up over the fact that if she's able to move and talk in the physical world then she's by definition at least temporarily not in a coma. Which she stated she was. If she can actually interact with the world while physically shut down, that's pretty cool. But if she's aware and physically interacting with her surroundings, she's not comatose, which is why I asked.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Roamer » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:03 pm

paarfi wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:55 pm
HorusHound wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:32 pm
"And then you screwed all those guys" Really? REALLY? Why the heck would you make that a part of her lore?
This has been hinted at by Kimiko for some time now.
[718]. - "This is nothing compared to what Erika used to put me through."
[728] - "I haven't been to a love hotel since you busted me in the face for dragging your drunk butt out of one."

Erika was in a bad place after Hitoshi called it off. Drinking heavily. Violence toward her best friend. Sleeping around. That doesn't make her a whore. You have to take into account Moeko's way of talking about these things. As we saw previously when she was talking to Miho, Moeko can be kind of harsh. Fortunately, Erika is in a better place now.

But anyway, if it still ends up bothering you that much, then best of luck and thanks for supporting. I hope you find a webcomic you like better.
"Moeko can be kind of harsh" - Yes, in much the same way that a main battle tank can cause minor traffic problems.

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Re: [1558] Getting through

Post by Invisigoth » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:09 pm

Roamer wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:59 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:06 pm
Listen:

Magical Girls and Magic are real in MT

Miho can shadowstep through the "gaps in between" to move around and so can Piro.

There are powerful and dangerous kitsune

You can rent 'zilla's and pay in pork rinds

Moeko was able to intercept Miho before she could die and scold her for dying

But you get hung up over the fact that what Largo is seeing isn't what's really happening?
No. I got hung up over the fact that if she's able to move and talk in the physical world then she's by definition at least temporarily not in a coma. Which she stated she was. If she can actually interact with the world while physically shut down, that's pretty cool. But if she's aware and physically interacting with her surroundings, she's not comatose, which is why I asked.
Let me fall back to MMO mechanics. In the open world she's in a coma but she can bend reality to create instance where she is capable of moving and interacting and she can bring others with whom she has a strong connection into that pocket universe. Rather like Miho moving through the gaps in between.

Her ability to manipulate reality is why she's so dangerous

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