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[1546] Gauging intent

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Roamer » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:27 pm

darrin wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:29 pm
cidjen wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:16 am
creepy, that everybody seems to assume it is.
I argued repeatedly from the start that there was no strong evidence for the then current sense of "creepy" (pervert who dates young girls). Above I am arguing his attitude to Ping is (at least potentially) quite callous but not (the current sense(s) of) "creepy" -- any more than Frink's reaction to recognizing the AT-5000 was "creepy".

The Old Man either doesn't know that Ping is self-aware (this "trying to play a real girl" thing might just be a programming quirk), or doesn't care (since one rogue prototype isn't significant to the Project that he does care about). I don't yet consider either of those possibilities strong evidence of "creepy" (as would, e.g., knowing she was self-aware, knowing this was significant, and still wanting her back under his / Sony's thumb, or retired entirely, regardless of consequences).
Mostly agreed. My only concern about his possibly being creepy is non-traditional: That he might find her growth and changes so fascinating that he's willing to test her to destruction, given that there are no laws to protect her. Per the law she's property, and stolen property at that. I simply don't think he sees her as a person. If he wants to see if he can drive her into psychosis or self-destructive behavior, there's nothing legal to prevent him from doing it. (And as a prototype of a product intended for public sale, he can make a pretty good case for doing so.)

(Here's a fascinating side note: Given that psychosis is defined as 'a loss of contact with reality', and that virtually everyone in MT is incapable of seeing the non-mundane stuff that surrounds them, then all those people are in fact suffering from some degree of psychosis!)

I find myself wondering if Masamichi could help with Ping's problems with him. Being an inspector with TCPD has to come with some interesting legal authority when necessary; he might be able to make a summary ruling about her legal status, or issue a restraining order against Sony. Or maybe just choose to quietly ignore it when the Sawatari girls dismember him.

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by darrin » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:51 pm

Roamer wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:27 pm
creepy is non-traditional: That he might find her growth and changes so fascinating that he's willing to test her to destruction, given that there are no laws to protect her.
Sure, "callous enough to down the road pose bigger issues" isn't ruled out yet, I was focusing on what I thought I could say given what's been seen so far. Again, the question for me atm is whether he is callous in the sense of "ha ha, fascinating, but I got stuff to do" (indifferent to whatever "issues" this little prototype might actually be having) or in the sense of "would be great to pop the hood and see what's making her tick this way" (without regard to this being a destructive test as you say).

EDIT:
Whoops, forgot I was gonna try to work in the caveat that "no laws to protect her" is probably mostly true given that we don't know the actual content of the Android Rights Act of 1978. (That is, there may possibly be "some" laws to "protect" her, but it's doubtful they will have much teeth to help Ping practically against a determined Sony antagonist -- Masamichi didn't even bother keeping Largo cuffed when he had a clear violation of said Act in hand. :roll:)
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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:31 am

darrin wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:29 pm
The Old Man either doesn't know that Ping is self-aware (this "trying to play a real girl" thing might just be a programming quirk), or doesn't care (since one rogue prototype isn't significant to the Project that he does care about). I don't yet consider either of those possibilities strong evidence of "creepy" (as would, e.g., knowing she was self-aware, knowing this was significant, and still wanting her back under his / Sony's thumb, or retired entirely, regardless of consequences).
I think you are reaching for a bridge too far on this one, D. Lack of reveal in the comic is not evidence that Dr. Feelgood is not a dirty birdy with little girlies. It is an unfortunate trope in Japan... but it is a trope for a reason. Where there is smoke there is fire. I watched Fat Albert and the Huckstibles growing up too... but I can not deny that Bill Cosby is a serial rapist. Where there is smoke there is fire.
Most of us are pretty sure he is a creeper.
And Miho is evil.

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by SpaceCobraJoe » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:10 am

I was wondering why people are referring to the old man as Dr. Gero. Is it something Fred said? I can't check it in the transcript since that service stopped with 1521 back in 4-22-2018. Was there an announcement about the transcript shutdown? Or is this just another thing needing round tuits.

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Roamer » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:28 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:21 am
Roamer wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:43 pm
None of this is meant to deter Teddy, of course. I don't have a nuke, or a MIB memory eraser, so I know I've got no chance of that.
...
Are you working with that creepy McCreeper, Dr. Feelgood? :shock:
Course not. I haven't decided if he could be an ally or a threat - but I don't see him as being that kind of a threat. Not to ping. I don't think he can see her as being human enough to interest him.

I'm just saying, neither sleet, no snow, nor loooong arguments can deter you once you choose to make your stand. Which is kind of admirable.

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Roamer » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:33 am

darrin wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:51 pm
Roamer wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:27 pm
creepy is non-traditional: That he might find her growth and changes so fascinating that he's willing to test her to destruction, given that there are no laws to protect her.
Sure, "callous enough to down the road pose bigger issues" isn't ruled out yet, I was focusing on what I thought I could say given what's been seen so far. Again, the question for me atm is whether he is callous in the sense of "ha ha, fascinating, but I got stuff to do" (indifferent to whatever "issues" this little prototype might actually be having) or in the sense of "would be great to pop the hood and see what's making her tick this way" (without regard to this being a destructive test as you say).

EDIT:
Whoops, forgot I was gonna try to work in the caveat that "no laws to protect her" is probably mostly true given that we don't know the actual content of the Android Rights Act of 1978. (That is, there may possibly be "some" laws to "protect" her, but it's doubtful they will have much teeth to help Ping practically against a determined Sony antagonist -- Masamichi didn't even bother keeping Largo cuffed when he had a clear violation of said Act in hand. :roll:)
I can't picture him as being indifferent, simply because I think anything she does will interest him. Willing to pop the hood, once he has all the data he wants? Oh heck yeah.

As for the ARA act - My sense of the TCPD is that they work based on what's expedient and gets the job done. Masamichi was at one point willing to use somebody's frequent flyer miles to get Largo out of the country. With that attitude, why bother with cuffs when it would be more useful for the perp to try something so you could do enough damage to take him out of the picture for a while?

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Roamer » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:38 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:31 am
darrin wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:29 pm
The Old Man either doesn't know that Ping is self-aware (this "trying to play a real girl" thing might just be a programming quirk), or doesn't care (since one rogue prototype isn't significant to the Project that he does care about). I don't yet consider either of those possibilities strong evidence of "creepy" (as would, e.g., knowing she was self-aware, knowing this was significant, and still wanting her back under his / Sony's thumb, or retired entirely, regardless of consequences).
I think you are reaching for a bridge too far on this one, D. Lack of reveal in the comic is not evidence that Dr. Feelgood is not a dirty birdy with little girlies. It is an unfortunate trope in Japan... but it is a trope for a reason. Where there is smoke there is fire. I watched Fat Albert and the Huckstibles growing up too... but I can not deny that Bill Cosby is a serial rapist. Where there is smoke there is fire.
Most of us are pretty sure he is a creeper.
And Miho is evil.
Correlation is not causation. As a theoretical case, maybe the good doctor loathes the practice. Maybe a relative of his was hurt doing it. Maybe he is doing this so that he can make EK unprofitable, and therefore end it. I'm not saying I think that's true - but it's possible. And it would be a reason to be around people who practice it that would not involve interest in the girls in that way. Insufficient data is where we are right now.

And no she's not.

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by paarfi » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:37 am

SpaceCobraJoe wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:10 am
I was wondering why people are referring to the old man as Dr. Gero.
I started that. It seemed like he needed a better name than 'creepy old guy'. He's is an older genius scientist who creates androids. He also has questionable ethics, and somehow creates very lifelike androids who are better people than he is. In an anime-influenced world like MT, I thought calling him 'Dr Gero' fit pretty well. But we have no evidence so far that he is the real Dr Gero in the sense that Meimi, Ririka, and Cha-san are their real respective magical girls.
SpaceCobraJoe wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:10 am
I can't check it in the transcript since that service stopped with 1521 back in 4-22-2018. Was there an announcement about the transcript shutdown? Or is this just another thing needing round tuits.
That's my fault too. I've just been too lazy lately to update the transcripts. I need to get caught back up..
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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Invisigoth » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:59 am

The thing about reverting to a common trope when dealing with anything in MT is that Fred takes all such common ideas out behind the barn, shoots them in the head, skins them and uses taxidermy to make animatronic puppets to fool the readers.

So, the good doctor no more likely to be a perv than any random background drawing figure. However he may well be someone who's no one's idea of a nice guy

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by paarfi » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:19 pm

paarfi wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:37 am
SpaceCobraJoe wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:10 am
I can't check it in the transcript since that service stopped with 1521 back in 4-22-2018. Was there an announcement about the transcript shutdown? Or is this just another thing needing round tuits.
That's my fault too. I've just been too lazy lately to update the transcripts. I need to get caught back up..
Transcripts are all caught up now, and the FAQ page is updated with the new megagearstore url and teespring link.
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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by cidjen » Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:25 am

darrin wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:29 pm
cidjen wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:16 am
creepy, that everybody seems to assume it is.
I argued repeatedly from the start that there was no strong evidence for the then current sense of "creepy" (pervert who dates young girls). Above I am arguing his attitude to Ping is (at least potentially) quite callous but not (the current sense(s) of) "creepy" -- any more than Frink's reaction to recognizing the AT-5000 was "creepy".

...
Yeah should have read 'most people' or 'at least some sizable audience' heh.

But yeah hmm even fighting this notion has to start with accepting that it exists :)

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by darrin » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:06 pm

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:31 am
darrin wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:29 pm
The Old Man either doesn't know that Ping is self-aware ... or doesn't care
I think you are reaching for a bridge too far on this one, D.
The negation of "not A or not B" is "A and B". So if I am "reaching" to claim the above, you must consider it the case that he both knows and cares that Ping is self-aware; can I ask what you're basing that on?
Lack of reveal in the comic is not evidence that Dr. Feelgood is not a dirty birdy with little girlies.
Maybe not, but that's not how it works. A positive claim requires positive evidence. I am claiming that no such positive evidence has yet been shown in-comic. I am certainly not claiming that no such evidence could possibly appear down the road. (My gut feeling is he doesn't seem that "style" of character, again going by the "callousness" issue as Roamer and I have been poking at the past few posts; I consider that pretty much worthless from a Bayesian pov but I don't see why it should be worth any less than your gut feeling that he is a pervert.) And as I have been saying for at least a dozen posts now, even if I am right that he's not a "pervert", that does not mean I have pegged him as a good guy: there are plenty of non-pervvy ways he could be bad news for Ping.
Where there is smoke there is fire.
An excellent example of a common folk saying that is demonstrably false. More to the point, nobody has actually shown me any smoke yet. :roll: 8-)
but I can not deny that Bill Cosby is a serial rapist.
Of course not, because that would mean denying evidence we now have in the form of the actual testimony of the victims. Try taking your time machine back to the seventies (I too as a little kid loved Fat Albert :cry: :cry: :cry:) and making that accusation back then with nothing more than "smoke means fire!" to back it up, and they will run you out on a rail.
And Miho is evil.
Oh you. ;) :lol:
paarfi wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:19 pm
Transcripts are all caught up now
I hope I have said this before, but probably not often or loud enough: paarfi is AWESOME.

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EDIT:
Roamer wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:33 am
I can't picture him as being indifferent, simply because I think anything she does will interest him. Willing to pop the hood, once he has all the data he wants? Oh heck yeah.
You said "willing to test to destruction", which is precisely the sense of "callous" (indifferent) I had in mind when responding; by "pop the hood" I certainly intended the implication "disassemble for his own purposes without regard to her being able to be reassembled". So I'm not clear how he could be considered "willing to test [our Ping, whom he regards as one among many prototypes] to destruction" but not "indifferent" to her specifically (of course he wouldn't be indifferent to the project as a whole, but I'm not worried about that, I'm worried about the Ping we know and love, who is the object of "callous" / "indifferent" I had in mind, that is, indifferent to her as a self-aware individual).
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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by SpaceCobraJoe » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:03 am

darren wrote
paarfi wrote: ↑Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:19 pm
Transcripts are all caught up now
I hope I have said this before, but probably not often or loud enough: paarfi is AWESOME.
I second that!

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:57 am

(Narrows his eyes at Darrin and bares his teeth with a growl.)

I do not want to be convinced by you, but you are persuasive. I still smell creep all over Dr. Feelgood.

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by maldrul » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:08 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:57 am
(Narrows his eyes at Darrin and bares his teeth with a growl.)

I do not want to be convinced by you, but you are persuasive. I still smell creep all over Dr. Feelgood.
That is just the stench of Sony you smell, TWB

People sometimes smell like their dog, that doesn't make *them* a dog.
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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:19 am

maldrul wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:08 am
People sometimes smell like their dog, that doesn't make *them* a dog.
SIT UBU SIT!
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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Roamer » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:32 am

darrin wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:06 pm
Roamer wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:33 am
I can't picture him as being indifferent, simply because I think anything she does will interest him. Willing to pop the hood, once he has all the data he wants? Oh heck yeah.
You said "willing to test to destruction", which is precisely the sense of "callous" (indifferent) I had in mind when responding; by "pop the hood" I certainly intended the implication "disassemble for his own purposes without regard to her being able to be reassembled". So I'm not clear how he could be considered "willing to test [our Ping, whom he regards as one among many prototypes] to destruction" but not "indifferent" to her specifically (of course he wouldn't be indifferent to the project as a whole, but I'm not worried about that, I'm worried about the Ping we know and love, who is the object of "callous" / "indifferent" I had in mind, that is, indifferent to her as a self-aware individual).
OK, that's a divergence point. I don't think he is indifferent to her as a self-aware individual, simply because I don't think he has figured it out. Our mysterious doc, as you say, of course isn't indifferent to his project - he's clearly in love with his work. Consider that if he's actually not interested in EK, and is only going out with who-knows-how-many girls just for the research, he's putting up with an unknown but probably notable amount of negative social reactions as a result, and yet he's still doing it personally. (Yes, Teddy, you may consider that as added ammunition for your argument.)

At this point in time it seems unlikely that he's figured out that she's self-aware. They haven't interacted much, and she hasn't done anything which can't be explained by the lack of the code packages she was looking for earlier. Until she does something which is clearly not within or can't be extrapolated from her code base, he won't figure it out. Ping, as near as we can tell, is the first self-aware synthetic human in MT. The doc doesn't seem like a research scientist to me, so she's going to have to provide incontrovertible evidence. His realization of her self-aware status is a necessary prerequisite to his seeing her as a person. Right now all he sees is a bundle of programmed responses in a carefully designed chassis - a two legged lab rat. If he tries to proceed with an experiment within her parameters, and she flatly rejects the programming and him - hopefully with a big slap - that might do it, because that would be well outside of her programming.

Also, that would be awesome to see.

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Roamer » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:43 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:57 am
(Narrows his eyes at Darrin and bares his teeth with a growl.)

I do not want to be convinced by you, but you are persuasive. I still smell creep all over Dr. Feelgood.
Even if he's not actually interested in doing anything with all these girls, he's still willing to be seen in public with them - with all the negative social reactions that he'll get from others because of it. If he's that obsessive about his work, I'm willing to stipulate he's at least minor-league creepy. We just don't have any evidence of anything more.

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by darrin » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:26 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:57 am
(Narrows his eyes at Darrin and bares his teeth with a growl.)

I do not want to be convinced by you, but you are persuasive.
Mwa ha ha. Even standing over my bloody mauled corpse, you will pause, pull out a piece of paper and pencil, and growlingly mutter, "Hmm, what the heck is P(H_1) / P(H_0), anyway?"

I will be quite happy with a posthumous victory. :D

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Invisigoth » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:58 am

We can call this one. Current strip answers the question and no, he's not a perv but an anthropologist :D

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Ningen 2 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:00 pm

Roamer wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:43 am
Even if he's not actually interested in doing anything with all these girls, he's still willing to be seen in public with them - with all the negative social reactions that he'll get from others because of it. If he's that obsessive about his work, I'm willing to stipulate he's at least minor-league creepy. We just don't have any evidence of anything more.


All this stems from the ongoing misapprehensions that
a) "these girls" are E-K girls
b) he has somehow tricked them
c) E-K is shameful in that society,

I'll start with the last. AFAIK In rl Japan, E-K is a bit edgy, but still accepted behaviour for both parties. If the man is married, that might well be a cause for embarrassment, but "all the negative social reactions" would be pretty minimal, even if people knew. Fred may have something different in mind for the MT-verse, but I haven't seen anything definitive in-comic.

I see no reason to believe he tricked anyone. Assume he said from the outset "I'm researching the life of young people in MT today. Could I talk to you about your daily life, and your reaction to various topics?" Would that be in any way inconsistent with what Junko said? "he's not like the others." "he's a gentleman". I believe he was lumped with "the others" simple because he pays her.

As for who is being hired, look at Ping's general demeanour and attitudes in the early strips. She comes across like a very sheltered 12 or 13 year old. That personality set is most unlikely to be a composite derived from a set of E-K girls. Add to that all that has been said about Sony not wanting to go there and I think a lot of people have been diligently pursuing a very red herring.
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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Roamer » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:17 am

Ningen 2 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:00 pm
Roamer wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:43 am
Even if he's not actually interested in doing anything with all these girls, he's still willing to be seen in public with them - with all the negative social reactions that he'll get from others because of it. If he's that obsessive about his work, I'm willing to stipulate he's at least minor-league creepy. We just don't have any evidence of anything more.

All this stems from the ongoing misapprehensions that
a) "these girls" are E-K girls
b) he has somehow tricked them
c) E-K is shameful in that society,

I'll start with the last. AFAIK In rl Japan, E-K is a bit edgy, but still accepted behaviour for both parties. If the man is married, that might well be a cause for embarrassment, but "all the negative social reactions" would be pretty minimal, even if people knew. Fred may have something different in mind for the MT-verse, but I haven't seen anything definitive in-comic.

I see no reason to believe he tricked anyone. Assume he said from the outset "I'm researching the life of young people in MT today. Could I talk to you about your daily life, and your reaction to various topics?" Would that be in any way inconsistent with what Junko said? "he's not like the others." "he's a gentleman". I believe he was lumped with "the others" simple because he pays her.

As for who is being hired, look at Ping's general demeanour and attitudes in the early strips. She comes across like a very sheltered 12 or 13 year old. That personality set is most unlikely to be a composite derived from a set of E-K girls. Add to that all that has been said about Sony not wanting to go there and I think a lot of people have been diligently pursuing a very red herring.
I never assumed, or stated, that he was using exclusively girls who practiced EK. That would result in a totally skewed personality model. But Junko is sufficiently out of the norm for any kind of schoolgirl that I was forced to assume he was using a reasonably large sample size of practitioners of EK, and utilizing more than one practitioner in the model. Have I mentioned that I think Junko may be one of the strongest personalities in the story?

He has to have tricked them; any researcher will tell you that explaining to your subject that they are being scrutinized changes their behavior. If you want to accurately model people, you cannot tell them they are research subjects.

Getting information about EK is not easy, and certainly not consistent in how it regards it. If it's actually socially acceptable, then I'm wrong about that aspect. With conflicting info I was basing my thoughts on how Junko seemed to regard it, and she doesn't seem to enjoy it much.

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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Ningen 2 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:39 am

What I'm trying to point out is that there's a big bandwagon rolling because of Ping's misapprehension. I'm not saying he's a particularly nice guy, but there still seems to be a determination to see him in the worst possible light.

As to the farming of the interviews, a similar situation exists in opinion polls, and yet they are regularly used, with reasonable accuracy. As a technician friend of mine puts it : "under carefully controlled laboratory conditions a test animal will do as it damn well pleases". There may be some skewing, but if you look at the form of words I suggested, I don't see it being too problematical. You can have adequate disclosure without it being full disclosure.
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Re: [1546] Gauging intent

Post by Liminaut » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:34 pm

Remember, Junko's experience of the guy was very positive.

My guess is that he spent a lot of time asking how Junko was, how she felt about her life, what her experience with other men was, etc. etc.

He may have been one of the few people in Junko's life that at least appeared to care about her as a person.

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