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WTF is going on here

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GouryG
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WTF is going on here

Post by GouryG » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:15 am

The flame war that just got pulled off is really getting ridiculous. Yeah the current story arc may raise some eyebrows, and has brought up some reasonable discussion but the flame war started by the user masquerading as im done was uncalled for. This is not a place for people who spout political correctness, MT is far from PC and most of us have no issues with that. I guarantee that nothing illegal will be committed by any characters, yeah some things may push the limits, but the line won't be crossed. I have seen a few boards torn apart by a rabble rouser or two starting shit and slowly dragging other users into their fight and turning the users against each other. Over the years here on MT (over 15 years for me) there have been some heated discussions, but eventually cooler did prevail. We manage to run a fairly civil board, let's try to keep it that way.

One of the arguments on that thread was subsidized/compensated dating and would it be considered prostitution. Here's a wiki article that does a pretty good job of explaining it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enjo_kōsai
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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by paarfi » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:49 am

Somebody complained about that thread, so Vis moved it. If that's a problem with some people, we can put it back.

I don't have a problem in general with people being upset with the comic. It's supposed to make you "feel", and sometimes it can make you feel bad. Fred's style leaves a lot of things ambiguous. We spend a lot of time here on SD arguing over what is going on, and that's part of the fun. But that same ambiguity can also make it easier for people to sometimes to really draw the wrong conclusions, especially when Fred skirts edgier elements.

I've told him more than once that I've been uncomfortable with a particular comic, and he's just said "Trust me". And he was right, cause in the end things resolved themselves in a way that I was happy with. But I hang out here on SD; I follow the comic closely; I've learned to trust Fred, and he hasn't disappointed me yet. Not everyone is going to have that.

I don't agree at all with much of what Im_Done wrote or accused Fred of. I think his assumptions about Junko or Ping prostituting themselves is just falling victim to Fred's deliberate ambiguity and jumping to that conclusion before all is really resolved. He's wrong, but I can see how he jumped to that wrong conclusion. Fred is dangling that out there, after all. It's not a total surprise that someone jumped at it.

The misogyny accusation I totally don't get though. Fred writes strong female characters, who are honestly better characters than the men in MT. They are not at all generic fan service; they are really the core of what makes MT work. Anybody who thinks MT is just a harem for Piro isn't paying attention to what's really going on.

But anyway, when someone gets worked up to that point, sometimes there's no talking them out of it. It's a shame, but there it is.
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GouryG
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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by GouryG » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:29 am

I have no issues with it being moved. Some of the accusations were way off base. I am all for intelligent discussions about subjects in MT that some may feel uncomfortable with, but that thread devolved into plain and simple flaming. Fred does probably have some sort of grand plan somewhere in the back of his mind. We should trust him to take it in the right direction.
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darrin
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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by darrin » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:20 am

paarfi wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:49 am
The misogyny accusation I totally don't get though.
Um, yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not just you. :roll:

I know I escalated from "low simmer" in my first post to "brick-oven flame grill" in the second pretty quickly, and I apologize if that hurt more than it helped. But I still felt that I was trying to focus on the logic (from my side anyway :|) despite the logic being bookended by a few f-bombs.

There are two kinds of responses one tends to see in arguments. The first is from someone genuinely interested in reaching a consensus or furthering understanding. They will look for the strongest part of my argument and use that as the foundation to build a strong (possibly stronger) counterargument; "I see why you think that, but what about this, that, and other points, which seem to point in another direction." I am happy to lose such an argument, because it means they helped me learn something; or if I still think they're wrong, I have to work harder to advance the discussion with legitimate counterpoints.

The second kind, doesn't want to build anything, they just want to pull it down. They look for the weakest part of my argument, stick a knife in, and try to grind away the mortar to start pulling bricks out. My throwaway side points, dumb jokes I made between actual points, even just poor turns of phrase or typos. Don't hold your breath waiting for anything legitimate there.

I didn't want to come across as a rabid fanboy who would defend the work at any cost. There are plenty of criticisms of MegaTokyo that could be made that I would stay silent on (might even agree if they're sufficiently justified). There were lots of other things in the original post I thought were dumb but did not rise to any level of importance worth commenting on. (The thing about Yuki's drawing lessons for one; come on, that happened literally when George Bush Jr. was in the White House. :roll: I have a response for that too but whatever, that's a lot more subjective and less egregiously offensive.) But the misogyny accusation crossed a threshold for me because it was both prima facie a stupid accusation, and potentially harmful if anyone out there were misguided enough to take it seriously without checking the truth for themselves.

Anyway, my feeling at this point is that the smartest thing in that thread was Rapierman's quip about folks taking themselves too seriously. I was hoping my Luke Skywalker and Tron quotes would save me from falling in that category. If not feel free to mock me as desired. :D
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GouryG
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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by GouryG » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:24 pm

Actually I agree with the quote from Tron Legacy where Kevin Flynn says that the Isos were smart but very naive. I echoed that sentiment in my post in the comic 1545 thread.
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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by Yl33 D4 N00b » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:01 pm

paarfi wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:49 am
Fred writes strong female characters, who are honestly better characters than the men in MT. They are not at all generic fan service; they are really the core of what makes MT work.
Truth.

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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by cidjen » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm

Uhh seems some 'fun' was happening while I wasn't watching....

Well yeah thank you, dear Mods, for keeping this place on topic...
It did occur to me the OP there just wanted to pick a fight. With anyone who dared to reply. So classic troll case?
Edit: s/his/theirs misogyny alert LOL. Pun intended.
But maybe removing it altogether (I can't seem to find it any more) was a tad heavy handed. I mean, I don't really care about that OP any more and of their views.

It's not like we can pretend no one of us never read anything negative about MT or Fred. Story or Art. Me included. I mean it's enough to make a Google query. Ykwim.

But I confronted that with what I like about the Story and Art, and the result, for me anyway, is : I don't give a FSCK about trolls opinions. Just as they don't give one about mine. I don't like them, I don't hate them, I just don't give a FSCK. So I don't mind letting them vent a little... I can vent a little on them too. Maybe have them somewhere in Offtopic area. Is all :)

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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by cidjen » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:49 pm

On arguments: well it is unfortunately a reasonable tactic to attack where you think you can easily win, distract the opponent into losing their position. Lots of arguments are made that way... The way forum software lets you edit the quotes to match your agenda, also contributes. But then its up to us to not give in to such tactics...

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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by darrin » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:36 pm

cidjen wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:49 pm
it is unfortunately a reasonable tactic to attack where you think you can easily win
I am assuming you mean "reasonable" here from a troll's point of view, in which sense I agree. (From my upbringing as a scientist I feel viscerally it is the least reasonable thing one can do. 8-)) And yes, pretty much the hallmark of a troll is their quickness to declare themselves "winner" in such a bout (without regard to how many opponents have simply dropped out due to being bored with getting name-called, or to how many counterarguments they've actually managed to refute).
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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by HakuRyoku » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:18 pm

awe what sadness... and here I was still buttering my popcorn to enjoy the show... pity. Usually my avatar just sums up my thoughts on such threads though.
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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by Rapierman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:22 am

Actually, Paarfi, this sort of thing also happens in the outside world (and I don't even have to mention politics since it's in our face these days).
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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by garapagosu » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:52 am

Remember kids, don't feed the trolls. They have a much bigger appetite than most folks.
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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by cidjen » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:49 am

darrin wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:36 pm
cidjen wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:49 pm
it is unfortunately a reasonable tactic to attack where you think you can easily win
I am assuming you mean "reasonable" here from a troll's point of view, in which sense I agree. (From my upbringing as a scientist I feel viscerally it is the least reasonable thing one can do. 8-)) And yes, pretty much the hallmark of a troll is their quickness to declare themselves "winner" in such a bout (without regard to how many opponents have simply dropped out due to being bored with getting name-called, or to how many counterarguments they've actually managed to refute).
Rapierman wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:22 am
Actually, Paarfi, this sort of thing also happens in the outside world (and I don't even have to mention politics since it's in our face these days).
Actually @Rapierman, it was @darrin - but yeah, that's what I was talking about. One attacks any point of adversaries' thought process one thinks can win with.

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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by darrin » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:42 am

garapagosu wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:52 am
Remember kids, don't feed the trolls. They have a much bigger appetite than most folks.
Like Michael Keaton said in that Spiderman movie, "That's the right answer." 8-) Certainly not claiming I was right to participate, just, like I said, sometimes things cross a threshold.

Basically I will take any excuse to talk about 1047 (my favorite Kimiko scene) even if it means feeding a troll. :oops: Anyone who can imagine that scene having been done by an author with even a microgram of misogyny in their bloodstream is a loony, :lol:
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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by Ningen 2 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:09 pm

Tohya's insta-support on the next page is superb, too.
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Re: WTF is going on here

Post by darrin » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:24 am

Ningen 2 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:09 pm
Tohya's insta-support on the next page is superb, too.
Definitely. 1047 is the high point for me specifically in terms of Kimiko, but the whole subarc is full of great moments for quite of the few female characters -- Miho as you say, arguably Sayuri, heck even Yuki: to the extent Yuki has problems, they're pretty much a result of her listening to Largo in the first place. :P

I thought early on in that Thread that Is No More that you'd have an easier case trolling the claim that Fred is misandric than misgynistic. :lol: I think paarfi said something in that direction at some point but can't go back and check obviously. ;)
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