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[1531] Don't waste it

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Ningen
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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by Ningen » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:15 pm

BetaCygnus wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:54 am
Ningen wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:55 am
Is nobody else noticing the big disconnect? …
Ningen, are you not noticing that *many* others noticed that? ; )
Not of those who posted before me in this thread, no.


(I'm specifically referring to Ping's internal disconnect, trying to divert something which isn't happening)
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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by darrin » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:35 am

Ningen wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:15 pm
Not of those who posted before me in this thread, no.

(I'm specifically referring to Ping's internal disconnect, trying to divert something which isn't happening)
In my defense I had just wondered about that in 1530 and didn't (yet, at the beginning of this one) think it worth repeating... but I hadn't stopped noticing it honest. :D

In fact her thought process is more opaque to me now than it's ever been. I have pretty much no mental model of what's going on in her head, unless I construct something like "This guy wants to have sex with Junko -> that makes him a bad man -> but he doesn't want to have sex with me -> so I can't start punishing him -> which he deserves cuz he's a bad man -> (back to start)", which would be chock full of questionable assumptions on Ping's part, and worse would entirely be (unjustified) assumptions on my part that those're the assumptions she's making. :shock:

Like I said, "train wreck" would be the mildest description of what's a-coming. :lol: More like 4 bullet trains converging on the same point, throttles fully open, brakes unresponsive. And then Miho shows up. :o

EDIT:
Hmm, I had originally written "5 bullet trains" above, then reread my earlier post and changed it back to 4. But I realize now that was assuming that Ashe would be a bystander and not involved in the fray... and I have no reason at all to believe that at this point. (Kudos to BetaCygnus for pointing out the various signs of attention-and-motion Ashe was giving off in the last couple panels; it's a safe bet I think she's not reacting to something unrelated to the topic of discussion.. off to start her own "talk" with Old Guy?) So 5 sounds better (and again, that's not counting what will hit the fan when Miho shows up. "Yeah, sorry, no time for that, I really have to talk to Piro because wait Ping is WHAT????").
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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by iffy » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:55 pm

There's been a pretty constant thread (and numbers of comments) that Ping has been doing a number of odd things that matches the oddness going on with her form. Out here, from a different view, us seeing more than either Junko or this guy (and now those at the Foxhole as well) have seen about Ping's words, thoughts, actions. We can notice that Ping appears to be totally ignoring, not even seeing, that Junko appeared to want to see this guy, even held him in high regard or awe. That Junko said he was different and it wasn't like that. Yet still Ping has not just made it something not wanted, but about a specific thing. One she's not even set up to deal with herself either. It's not certain (who is this guy, what does he want, does he know who Ping is, is he aware if anything external is impacting Ping, etc) but Ping seems convinced of it. Is extrapolating, assuming, guessing to certainty and we have no idea about the validity of that, and which also doesn't seem to match Junko. Which Ping had to trick and waylay to keep Junko out of it for at least some time.

There's not a single disconnect, there's lots, at least at this point without knowing the things we don't know about.

So we have a number of people with differing views and perceptions, and we can see they have different ideas, but the only two that would know (Junko and this guy) haven't filled in anything much. There's mostly only Junko's behavior and attitude before the subterfuge, and this guy's patient whimsical confusion something that doesn't reveal much at all. What Ping is trying to do is pretty clear, why exactly she wants to or in this way isn't clear.

There's some changes that have gone on with Ping in her adventuring with Piro and Largo. Largo's fiddling with systems, translators and web impacts, whatever went on with Miho, even Junko's influence and impact.

If Ping has "absorbed some Analogue" perhaps it's as simple as her creating a story, with the participants going along with whatever they believe is true. That's supposed to be somewhat Ping's reason and seems to match Ibara's dismissive comments. Yet what a simple accessory can mimic isn't the same as a mostly undiscernible android that appears to have been powered by story itself.

Maybe there is no disconnect, if Ping is creating a story, because if we toss away the truth as unimportant, there's nothing to disconnect from. If all that matters is perception and feeling.

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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by MoneyMan » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:31 pm

Rather than talking about disconnects, I'd say Ping is jumping the gun. She's acting on incomplete information and from the looks of things she's getting it wrong.

So I'm going to guess she's been learning from twitter.

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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by cidjen » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:59 am

And it's not the first time Ping is acting... well - is it, selfish?

Remember, when she did not pick up the phone when Kimiko was calling before her radio show?

Then, before going to CoE, asked Piro for this in return of Kimiko's number (and was somewhat elated when she thought, it didn't work out?)

The selfish little S*ny isn't she ;) not always - but when it matters...
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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by Yl33 D4 N00b » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:01 am

It would be a possible assumption that Ping's original programming has been altered by Ed(via text), or Largo, perhaps even Miho, when she was "playing" with Piro and Largo. Certainly what she's doing now isn't what she was designed to do when Tsubasa first got her......

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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by darrin » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:43 am

MoneyMan wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:31 pm
Rather than talking about disconnects, I'd say Ping is jumping the gun.
Except she's not just complaining about how slowly he's moving; she's explicitly said that she knows he doesn't want to have sex with her, and she is trying to figure out how to change that state (whether to just save Junko or trigger her violence routines or what :D). It's like if she said "I can't do X unless he robs a bank; how do I get him to want to rob a bank?" Again not entrapment obviously but just jars (me at least) for same reason that entrapment is considered wrong.
So I'm going to guess she's been learning from twitter.
Oh definitely, Junko was spot on to be concerned that Ping "let that wacko wire the internet into [her] head."

EDIT:
MoneyMan (below) wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:03 pm
[...]she isn't revising her plan, she's doubling down.

So, you know, twitter.
Yeah, that's for sure; and not just her, I would say "acting on incomplete information" seems to be a fundamental theme of the chapter so far (even more so than previous ones :D). But Ping definitely brings a machine-like efficiency to the process. ;)

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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by MoneyMan » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:03 pm

darrin wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:43 am
Except she's not just complaining about how slowly he's moving; she's explicitly said that she knows he doesn't want to have sex with her, and she is trying to figure out how to change that state (whether to just save Junko or trigger her violence routines or what :D). It's like if she said "I can't do X unless he robs a bank; how do I get him to want to rob a bank?" Again not entrapment obviously but just jars (me at least) for same reason that entrapment is considered wrong.
That as well, she rushed off on incomplete information and now that additional information is becoming available, she isn't revising her plan, she's doubling down.

So, you know, twitter.

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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by Ningen » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:14 am

Yl33 D4 N00b wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:01 am
Certainly what she's doing now isn't what she was designed to do when Tsubasa first got her......

I'm not so sure. Remember that she was to provide a safe emotional outlet for her user? For example how she tried to "be there" for Piro when she thought Nanasawa had rejected him. Junko is now the person who is "playiing" with her, and her comment about not being able to say no may have triggered a basic routine in Ping's coding. I suspect that is why the additional information is being ignored. Once the trigger has been activated, it is not re-evaluated.
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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by cidjen » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:30 am

Yeah looks like she can use the overrides at her (?) will (remember 'Yeah shoulder sensor, I heard you' ?)

So now the question is...

What will the Boss Fight look like in this game ?
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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by mostlyharmless » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:11 am

On further thought, we're just going with the flow. The adult response should be to prevent this obviously ill-considered plan instead of helping. Dunno what they could do, given the circumstances, but any help is just wrong.

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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by darrin » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:43 am

Ningen wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:14 am
Junko is now the person who is "playiing" with her, and her comment about not being able to say no may have triggered a basic routine in Ping's coding.
Are you referring to Junko's last few comments in 1175? I feel like I should know this one but my searches for places where Junko talks about not saying no didn't turn up much.

Regardless of what strip it's in, you definitely raise a good point. It would be interesting to see how much of Ping's apparently misguided planning and actions right now are due to low-level forced requirements baked into her programming, and how much are her own initiative (again based on garbled / incomplete information). Not that we may ever find out (Fred doesn't often seem interested in that... hmm... "flavor" of detail... :D) But it will be fun to see if unfolding events give more clues or at least hints in that direction.
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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by iffy » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:09 pm

According to Ibara, "Such a sad idea for an interface. Having to use a life-like doll to communicate emotional data." (1160) At least for what he knows about it, Ping seems to be meant to perform much the same function as Analogues. Making things real to the point the actual facts don't matter, we might say. -??? -> unique stories -> audience reception and feelings- But rather than being some vague notions which powerful stories come into existence from in ways that are not directly traceable back to sources that don't actually exactly exist, Ping puts together existing performances into new ones. -user & some standard stories -> Ping -> some new stories -> user reception and feelings- On a smaller scale, doing things in a way that is also some new synthesis of parts arranging on their own into something that has no discernible original. Where the viewer/reader/participant is absorbed into the experience. If the user has the same emotional immersion, does it matter where they're from or how they're created? The answer seems to be no.

Yet just absorbing plots and characters from games for a user (if that's actually true) wouldn't seem to be enough to mimic what apparently happens around Miho. Where stories spring into being on their own where nobody can see where they came from and then become immaterial as the experiences take over. As the participants become immersed.

Yet Ping was not limited to only absorbing PS2 content. Didn't even appear to do any of it. She has been absorbing so much more from many actual sources. Even perhaps too sophisticated to be what she was said to be. To the point where being on the loose warrants an assassin (who in normal circumstances would seem more than sufficient for the task) to take her out of circulation. To the point where nobody in the audience can even see she isn't a human female unless they are moved out of the audience and into the performance as a primary.

So no PS2 games to train her, instead everything that happened with the adventures of her first two in-world role models and everyone revolving around them. Her emotional routines did all sorts of crazy things. Her horizons were broadened by additional tech. She spent considerable time with the Analogue itself, who has even said Ping has been impacting the plans by "pulling me to her" to the point where she's "not been able to get away". (1352) All the many things that have happened that Ping has been around or a part of since she started to interact with Junko. This isn't the Ping that was in 106.

It seems entirely possible something somehow has happened where somebody or something wants to see how Ping has changed since she was released into the field to grow (if that's what happened) just as much as it is possible this is all her creating stories on her own (inherently or as empowered). Either way, some of what she's doing doesn't appear all that different than when she was trying to play with various people that were too busy in their own stories to let her in or join hers as throughly as she wanted. Now she has the potential to make them do so, if she can only find what she lacks the knowledge of in order to do it her way. Not that she is trying for the effect of others having to play with her to happen; her viewpoint seems closer in time and space. Yet those at the FoxHole seem to be doing so, whatever the intent and goal.

She appears doing things that may or may not have any link to reality, just like most everyone else. Perhaps this casts more light upon Piro's general hesitation to start doing these sorts of things too? One thing seems fairly clear though, Ping wants to make things go the way she wants them, take control, be the decision maker. And in doing so, she is apparently drawing others into her reality, regardless if she wants that or knows that.

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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by darrin » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:48 pm

iffy wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:09 pm
So no PS2 games to train her, instead everything that happened with the adventures of her first two in-world role models and everyone revolving around them.
Indeed, the oddity of her "training" has been inconsistent to the point of self-contradictory, and almost certainly far outside any use regime the designers anticipated: exposed to a wide spectrum of human behavior (helping out at megagamers, going to school, fending off bullies, cafes and sleepovers with girlfriends), yet kept at arm's length or outright ignored by the "principal players" (Piro obviously; Miho except when "in the mood" to play; even Junko now, "You stay here and do whatever, I've gotta meet this guy for 'stuff'").

Even at the very beginning this treatment caused obvious confusion, which rapidly evolved into self-doubt, angry frustration, panicked distress and finally despair. I've been joining in on the discussion about how apparently out of whack her planning and decision-making schemes have been the past few (dozen) strips but I would hope it wasn't considered surprising that she's in such a state at this point.

Having the people close to her pay attention to her and interact with her isn't just something she craves the way a human would, it's literally how she learns about and relates to the world. And after being ignored by her "players", most of all Piro, and finally getting desperate enough to call on data that by rights ought to be loaded in her system already, she is left with a big fat file not found. An internal rejection so to speak, after facing a heck of a lot more external rejection than even her designers wanted to bother handling. ("Of course they'll play with her after paying that much!")

I am beginning to think this arc is a heck of a lot scarier than the rainbow frizzy hair and stuff originally led me to believe...
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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by BetaCygnus » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:01 am

BetaCygnus wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:01 am
And — is it just me or is Ping’s mouth in Panel 8 a first timer in that it’s actually a 3D mouth drawn by Fred in a profile drawing of a character? I don’t recall seeing that in MT before… :?:
So. I took the *great* pleasure of reading through MT again last week — and yes, Fred has drawn mouths this way before. But not often.

=)
darrin wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:48 pm
I am beginning to think this arc is a heck of a lot scarier than the rainbow frizzy hair and stuff originally led me to believe...
As I just read through MT again, finding this remark out here makes me think of the way Largo has adressed and referred to Ping from the beginning.
Largo is… well, Largo, but his flamboyant expression of his world view has more often than not been disturbingly correct.
darrin wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:43 am
Are you referring to Junko's last few comments in 1175? I feel like I should know this one but my searches for places where Junko talks about not saying no didn't turn up much.
That’s the one I was thinking of as well when I read Ningen’s above response.
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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by cidjen » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:51 am

This got me somewhat thinking,

what if Ping IS the personification of The Game?

As in, not an NPC or player-character.

But THE AI that steers the NPCs and game mechanics, and it chose to manifest itself as the robot in The Game.

So essentially, a player-character, that has the backing of the game world mechanics (explains the superhuman abilities, like ripping poles out of the ground) and the digital character (i'd say it's an 'innate ability' of A.I. being able to RPG 'play' An A.I.) and backed by some self-learning, even maybe neural network code (can use DLC or watch others for instant learning too) (and the character development. Or perhaps emulating the human emotions, through any of those means, absorbed some of the human selfishness, that's why she was doing those things _for_herself_).

So, like, if someone goes through the entire Game with Ping, the world. will. end.

Just some thoughts ;)
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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by darrin » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:45 pm

BetaCygnus wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:01 am
As I just read through MT again, finding this remark out here makes me think of the way Largo has adressed and referred to Ping from the beginning.
Largo is… well, Largo [...]
Yes indeed, very good point. I did actually leave him out of my "analysis" deliberately, because how the heck do you "analyze" anything with that nutcake around. :lol: :lol:

But it could be argued that from the beginning he understood her, or understood particular aspects of her, that Piro was ignorant or in denial of (or just assumed Largo was ranting as usual :D). Piro's protestations of Largo's treatment of her come off as pretty hypocritical though given it was Largo that paid attention to her, much more intimate attention than anyone except Miho (Junko may be catching up at this point but still has a ways to go), certainly far more than Piro (her putative "owner" or "primary player" or whathaveyou) ever did.

In the other direction I find it curious that despite Largo's "attentions" being often more negative than positive, Ping's response was (with a few telephone-pole-swinging exceptions ;)) generally positive. She didn't quite latch on to him the way she did with Piro; but she did follow him about more or less obediently, and tolerated his earblade-twiddling and unsolicited hackery (despite the potential danger that should by rights have posed her.. again, Junko's "you let that wacko wire the internet into your head :ph34r:"). I like to the think the former is based on her "relationship" routines taking their respective sensei-student schticks seriously. But that latter might be an attempt to somehow get "beyond" the things she was originally designed for...
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Re: [1531] Don't waste it

Post by iffy » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:26 pm

Her formative learning appears to have been in Megatokyo and out-of-game (at least non-PS2 style and depending on how you think of MT). In what Ping experienced from the parts she participated in, and then more broadening of horizons as that was extended in scope and participants. She's had multiple users but none in the sense of Princess Maker players. It's clear she already had a lot of data though, but not what it was. Nor do we really know if she is exactly what was made out to be, or if she ended up here simply as a prototype that later turned out to have apparently perhaps gone rogue, even if though no fault of her own. Seemingly. Aside from those things to wonder about, we don't know how she was created, or really even if she was per se created. Certainly there are multiple lines of data that establish she's at some level a machine that can be programmed and tinkered with electronically or emotionally, accidentally or on purpose, by herself, Largo, Ed, Miho, Kimiko, Junko, and now the Foxhole folks. Yet how much of her is made, created, mechanical or biological, and what might be merely outwardly apparent and believed by her or those observing the outward interfaces but not exactly really like it seems.

Still, whatever else Ping appears an excessively-human super-advanced android-computer, but with self-repairing hyper-complex emotional routines that apparently aren't all there or all unlocked. Can she only get certain aspects of herself by learning, and what else was lacking before she learned it? It's no easy task to take plots and characters, combine them, learn from them, and synthesize them into something both new and compelling, as we see even from humans in the many failed productions created every year that are badly done, tired, derivative and/or boring.

As for the impact of Piro and Largo in particular. Maybe not the most impact, but apparently the first. We have of course had quite a long while to observe both of them in many situations. Largo appears to have a better insight into the interrelated internal workings of things, and an inane unbelievable fantastic way of displaying, describing, explaining, implementing them. Which others have picked up upon as mere lunacy or have aligned with to gather. Mostly everyone has fallen to some extent into the second camp. (Although when it comes to work or emotion or interpersonal behaviors, that insight alone isn't enough to fully endear him at all times to any given person.) There are very few that have dismissed him out of hand and refused to interact with him on any level, even if at times (or all the time) his antics are aggravating and annoying to the point of anger. On the other hand, there's Piro. He gives the impression he fairly well understands it all, but is incapable of being wacky about it or even fully accepting any of it. Or at least admitting it out loud to anyone else much of the time.

Maybe it's just better to say that Ping isn't the only thing or person that he has been determined to not accept, that he mostly refuses to be anything but dry and logical about. Or perhaps when it comes to those two, we could just say we have an extreme extrovert and an extreme introvert, and as has been explained before, neither is fully "correct" about how they perceive things in general. When it comes to Ping, both of them have a skewed version of what and how and why she is; Piro treats her as more human in a way, but usually won't engage with her on most anything but a purely technical level, Largo is more friendly and helpful in interacting, but only when it fits his ideas and purposes.

In a way she gets her pick of two suboptimal choices; aloof toleration but no manipulation, more concern yet in a selfish way. Although actually it's a mix of both, and then spends much of her time when she can choose, to be around people like Miho and Junko. Which in a lot of ways being around the females gets a more intimate emotional experience, but in other ways gets somewhat even more extreme versions of the faults of the males. But perhaps the only person who seems the most real, accepting and forgiving is the one that has been doing so with everyone recently, Kimiko, but she hasn't spent much time with Ping aside from such as when she helps her in Chapter 8 starting 938. Which there are certainly exceptions (or certain situations) like in 950 we have Piro consoling and Largo worrying. (Or something like that, however we put it.)

That's okay, she's started taking charge now. Maybe with a little help, she can craft her own path.

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