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[1483] Brawler

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Zandra
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Zandra » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:44 pm

OH that poor poor dear. MIho could fold her in half if she desired and before she even realized what went on. Were talking about Rem level dismemberment here or even worse.

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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by iffy » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:50 pm

Not that it can't also be all true at the same time, and not that somebody can't do it and be right, but still. Bringing in a mystical new unknown person to narratively sort of explain Miho by guessing at her truth and origins and intent seems akin to that overly-dramatic posturing Largo gave to Erika about honor and betrayal, to that fanciful game-framed bypassing of the online chat photo sharing as hair-cutting hospital drawing that Piro dropped on Kimiko, or to the supposed origin story Miho blurts out in the apartment just before Kimiko's death punch. Grief-stricken 125 year-old girl distraught over killing somebody she would seem to have known was quite not, and so here, this is how it was before, so sad first player pickup, don't create Kotone, puff puff ooooh my heart. Rather like how very dead Miho was after being blasted into bits by Ed's first and only MT success, or at least until Yuki shows up before Piro can and finds Miho is quite very much not dead at all. Just about nobody has been very correct about much anything so far, why "Junpei's sister"?
Heywulf wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:54 pm
Miho was said to be "not just a Character Analogue...She's the Real Thing." (As said by a possible Untrustworthy Narrator.)
From a number of sources in MT, she is an Analogue, a source, a provider of representations, and so on. Both Ed and Ibara said, and Ed reacted and Ibara lectured, that she's the real thing, whatever it means. Still, that might only be how they think of her, from their perspective. It might not extend past what they know or to anyone who doesn't know what they do. Actual narrator, pretty much both trustworthy and untrustworthy, depending on what matches what is really happening when we are shown it, and what we are shown. Inside MT they are fully trustworthy in at least a basic sense, because what is established all flows from them no matter what it is.

Yet, whoever is is that said or did what and when in MT, and it's somewhat true, that doesn't have to mean the real thing is the same as Analogue. It might seem that being real is far more than and far more removed from simply being a source of some story type, or the influence for derivative works of various qualities dependent upon implementation. However close the given descriptions of Analogue and the real thing are to each other or to actuality, and however much that might matter.
NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:39 am
Miho's "drunken sailor brawling;" yup, she really was on a pirate ship. "Force multiplier;" Miho has some kind of reality-bending power. "Not Asian," despite Miho's outward appearance.
Though the only one of those that's been demonstrated in some way is the second one. Being a rich girl taking on the pirate life, even if true to any extent, doesn't automatically turn her into a drunken sailor brawler. Being apparently physically Asian but not acting certain ways doesn't make you not Asian. Even if she turns out she's not and is an ancient goddess or a corporeal force that's not actually anything to begin with. For that second one, it might not be reality-bending. The creation of reality, or turning of energy into whatever needs to be made, or fiction made not. Not bent, but made or destroyed or broken.
Initial B wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:46 am
The fact that Miho has allowed Ninjagirl to dress her up like that seems to indicate that Miho is holding back a lot of her power, considering what she did to Junpei. That threat by Ninjagirl might just be the thing to make her drop her limiter.
Or the previous situations, including Ping, have drained off or removed certain aspects of Miho. Or perhaps the death/revive/operation/fight/etc has drained her to the point where she can't stop dressup, can only do so much. Sure, it might just be nothing's changed with her, still whatever and however powerful. If she has or doesn't have her full powers, if it's just part of a role, being in a safe place in this story likely means she isn't going to go on some killing spree. Not that we've ever seen offensive violence of that sort from her in MT anyway. What we have seen, with an Analogue the defensive/reflexive/panic violence would seem to be only because of story.
DrunkenSailor wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:00 pm
I think it's obvious that explaining the story she's in and what she is, changes the story she's in. It changes the understanding of other characters, their motives, actions and words. Actively trying to save or help Miho from her real problems, is equivilant to forcing Miho into one of her typical story lines. Thus the horde detects her and here they come.
We appear to have a few times seen the story get shoved elsewhere as situations and perceptions changed or were changed. Which would also appear to fit into either the idea of Analogue or the real thing. Perhaps this girl here is sensing some of that. Even still, it wouldn't be impossible she would be able to find a way around this, although that would mean certain things would have to be true, which might not at all be so. Yet either way, if one could control their perceptions fully, what illusions could they potentially ignore or remove? That would fit into the notion the actuality doesn't matter, it's how one feels. If they feel nothing, believe nothing, and create their own perceptions, what limits would there be. If she doesn't believe it, that might be why she could succeed.

As far as The Horde, who to what extent believes/feels that Miho is actually finally really dead? Does that take her out of play or not?
The Ninja girl is just a very astute observer, possibly even seeing visual aura's or what not and obviously not the flake she was pretending to be
She could still be way flaky, acting it or not. Maybe not at all an astute observer. Sensing an aura, feeling the reality and unreality, quite possible. Or just another fan tricking themselves into treating the character as if it's a person, and the actress as more than just an emotive mirror. Just because some of the things Miho does reminds this young girl about pirates and magic and other cultures doesn't make her correct about any of those things, even if they do match our impressions of other things we already "know".

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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Invisigoth » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:59 pm

I fail to see why so many people seem to get extremely butthurt over the prospect that Miho isn't Japanese. Why do you have any sort of emotional investment in such a concept? This is all stuff that has been slowly revealed over time and one of the weirder things is that some seem to take the whole alternate POV plot device as some sort of excuse for clinging to pet theories.

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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Patty Acer » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:24 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:59 pm
.... one of the weirder things is that some seem to take the whole alternate POV plot device as some sort of excuse for clinging to pet theories.
And you're as much of a case in point for that as anybody. I took it as a given that Miho was Japanese, because every else in the story who's an MT native, as well as Piro and Largo, react to her as if she were Japanese (albeit a Japanese girl with very good English skills). If she is now revealed to be truly not Japanese, then that's actually quite an interesting reveal as it would show Miho, despite how incredible her story is, to be basically a reliable narrator instead of an unreliable one. up until now, she's been presented as an unreliable narrator - or at the very least, her story is so incredible and her interactions with other characters so fraught that the reader is lead to believe she must be one. If she's really not Japanese, and not even Asian, then , geez, she suddenly becomes the only reliable narrator in the story, which is a huge switch and changes everything.

i'm not, as you so rudely put it, 'butthurt' by this, just wondering if it's true and where the story will go if it is. After all, it's not true just because you say so. there has to be proper evidence.

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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Invisigoth » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:41 pm

For a while my favorite personal POV was that Piro and Largo were in fact the equivalent of Tyler Durden and The Narrator from Fight Club. As for the rest, I am frequently told serious plot points that totally blow my personal theories out of the water by Fred himself. Being what he terms a "spoiled minion" I don't get to hold my opinions no matter how much I'd love to have them be canon.

Now, this is what informs my reaction to the pigheadedness of some people. If I have to live by the motto, "Suck it up buttercup and embrace the suck" then the least I can expect from other people is that when there's a new reveal that have the decency to say, "Huh, well that didn't occur to me!"

Seriously, my opinions have been slapped down hella harder than I've ever been to any of you in these forums. Not to say that I don't have opinions that haven't burned to the ground yet but that's probably just because we've not gotten to that point yet. OTOH there are a number of things that I do in fact know about that I am not allowed to discuss at all.

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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by darrin » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:08 pm

Patty Acer wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:17 pm
Wow. If the 'Miho is Irish' theory turns out to be true -!
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by paarfi » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:31 pm

darrin wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:08 pm
Patty Acer wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:17 pm
Wow. If the 'Miho is Irish' theory turns out to be true -!
Mih O'Tohya? (to borrow a gag from Magnificent Seven)
Nah, it has to be Miho T O'hya. :P
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Ray Kremer » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:41 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:59 pm
I fail to see why so many people seem to get extremely butthurt over the prospect that Miho isn't Japanese. Why do you have any sort of emotional investment in such a concept? This is all stuff that has been slowly revealed over time and one of the weirder things is that some seem to take the whole alternate POV plot device as some sort of excuse for clinging to pet theories.
Yeah, well, you and I have plenty of opportunity to smile and nod and get used to Fred's wacky new big twists long before hints of them start dropping in the comics.
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Invisigoth » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:58 pm

Ray Kremer wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:41 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:59 pm
I fail to see why so many people seem to get extremely butthurt over the prospect that Miho isn't Japanese. Why do you have any sort of emotional investment in such a concept? This is all stuff that has been slowly revealed over time and one of the weirder things is that some seem to take the whole alternate POV plot device as some sort of excuse for clinging to pet theories.
Yeah, well, you and I have plenty of opportunity to smile and nod and get used to Fred's wacky new big twists long before hints of them start dropping in the comics.

Hahaha ain't that the truth!

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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Yl33 D4 N00b » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:47 pm

As long as Fred's wacky big new twists makes sense in the overall story, bring'em, I say! :mrgreen:
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Ningen » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:47 pm

paarfi wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:31 pm
darrin wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:08 pm
Patty Acer wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:17 pm
Wow. If the 'Miho is Irish' theory turns out to be true -!
Mih O'Tohya? (to borrow a gag from Magnificent Seven)
Nah, it has to be Miho T O'hya. :P
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Sareth » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:49 am

Heh. I've been having to get used to my pet theories being disposable ever since the day Fred announced that there was a canonically gay character, and it was NOT Miho. (Sorry, Ping, I had always hoped she'd switch your adult mode on so the two of you could play games you'd both enjoy, but NOPE!) If Miho is, in fact, not Japanese as had seemed true for so long, it simply deepens the mystery in ways that intrigue me all the more!

(Also, I may not have given up on Miho x Ping, so take what I say with a grain of salt, and a nice yuri VN.
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by JeroenB » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:50 am

Small Pink Mouse wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:34 am
Rightly or wrongly, my suspicion at this point is that Ninja Girl is the grandmother Junpei spoke of. The apparent youthfulness of her body might or might not be genuine depending on what she had access to or ran into but the genki girl mannerisms are pose. all pose. With this in mind, I would say that Paarfi's suspicions are correct about her knowing more then she lets on. ^_^
Following on from this, in Japanese, would a junior member of a traditional hierarchical family or clan in this context say <to protect my family> or something more like <our family> or <the family>?

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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by darrin » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:43 pm

Ha, found it finally.

In 432 Miho refers to herself as "a fragile little Japanese girl", and nobody responds by saying anything like "But you don't look Japanese."

So while Miho may not be Japanese (or even Asian), it seems clear that she at least looks Japanese. I'm with DrunkenSailor on this one; Junpei's sister made the "you aren't Asian" comment not based on Miho's phyiscal appearance, but on something more subtle.

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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by iffy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:54 pm

There is a difference between continuing to stick to an idea that's been shown to be almost certainly not true, and not suddenly accepting a new idea that appears to have little outward basis to it. Those not agreeing to statements of unknown veracity from a source of unknown qualifications, isn't nearly as surprising as the opposite would likely be. No, it seems a more logical rational reaction here to this potentially excellently observant ninja is thought and curiosity. Really! What's that based upon? What would make the apparently youthful ninja female relative of Junpei correct here. How. Why. About what. For that matter, why would ninjagirl say something that nobody else has seemingly ever brought up or remarked upon. What would be special about this ones perceptions that are better than Ibara's hopes of hiring her, Ed's plans to kill her, Kimiko's plans to talk to her, the TPCD's plans to neutralize her, Largo's plans to defend against her, or even as far as anyone knows Piro's plans to save her.

The apparent mistress of a dance club and as it turns out shrine in the middle of downtown who apparently looks and sounds so isn't even Asian; why, some young random girl we just met sees a fighting style she thinks is non-Asian and so must be correct about this? Because Miho doesn't contradict her? If that sort of thing was a basis for truths about Miho, most every contradictory and impossible thing everyone has ever remarked about her is true simultaneously. Never mind the large number of things Miho has said or agreed to or not commented on have been demonstrated to wrong, false, meaninglessly vague or plainly unverifiable by any means.

Could she be correct about Miho not being Asian? Certainly! But that remains to be seen. Maybe! And in the meantime, those who have just gotten this and only this, can still ask and wonder if she is correct or not. If we want to know if somebody is being bullheaded about believing something, we might just have to be able to put ourselves into the perspective of how they see it, to know if it's reasonable or not. Otherwise, we can only determine what is reasonable based upon what we know. Being qualified, protans and dichromats, fire trucks and limes. What a given person here already knows about this more than just from 1483? What would that be, to make it seem to them a reasonable thing to believe it true already. True to them, in the face of what is to many others likely only nonsensical continuing wrongness about Miho and who and what she is. Maybe that's a start.

On the other hand, if Miho is actually Kotone and is European, a few centuries old and such, that wouldn't be new or surprising or unlike what this one just said. Miho has said the same and told stories about it, and so have others before. Likewise if Miho is some force of nature, eternal and symbolic, we have that too. She's spoken in Japanese, English and Gaelic, perhaps she's a mix of all three, just like everyone that speaks Latin is from the Roman Empire. Not surprisingly, she has fans she's not supposed to, isn't supposed to be a focus yet built up from materials she certainly didn't have anything to do with creating, and has to die so the story ends and everyone else gets an emotional purge out of it, resulting in a stable society. Oh, more of course. In the midst of fiction, she's also the real thing. A source of story types. An Analogue. So looking at it that way, Miho is clearly not Asian. Because apparently, she isn't anything. Or even still the ninja could be quite as wrong as everyone else combined is in what they perceive.

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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Ray Kremer » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:41 pm

darrin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:43 pm
In 432 Miho refers to herself as "a fragile little Japanese girl", and nobody responds by saying anything like "But you don't look Japanese."

So while Miho may not be Japanese (or even Asian), it seems clear that she at least looks Japanese. I'm with DrunkenSailor on this one; Junpei's sister made the "you aren't Asian" comment not based on Miho's phyiscal appearance, but on something more subtle.
Miho's character has undergone a lot of evolution and revamping over time. Early on, the "big concept" about her was having been Piro and Largo's MMORPG nemesis, which Largo in his typical stopped-clock-is-right-twice-a-day fashion picked up on and proceeded to flip the fuck out over it. From there her main purpose was to hang around being creepy and egg Largo on whenever the story needed him to go aggro on something that turned out to be totally unrelated to her. The Pirogoeth/M0h romance angle may have been there all along too or snuck in somewhere along the way, leading up to the big reveal to Piro at the cake shop. And that was pretty much it. As far as I can tell she had nondescript super abilities more for Rule of Cool than anything else, and her fainting spells were inspired by Sarah's real-world health problems (her undiagnosed at the time Sjogren's syndrome) with no apparent greater purpose in mind.

It can be safely assumed that at this point Miho was fully intended to be Japanese, just like everybody else who was in Tokyo prior to Piro and Largo's arrival.

A lot changed when two major things happened. One, Fred suddenly developed the character analogue concept to explain what Miho's actual deal is, and two, he decided Piro and Kimiko as a couple no longer inspired him and that Piro with Miho held better possibilities. The latter resulted in a tremendous expansion of the backstory relating to the Endgames time period, and elements of both were appropriately meted out mostly in small bits over time. Miho's actual personal history and analogue origin story developed later still. I'm guessing the whole Irish thing came about because Europe seemed like a more natural setting for her to do the whole "fall in with sailors and have an adventurous life on the high seas" element, but one can't discount plain old Fred randomness either. She's supposedly Black Irish, which is meant to explain why she can pass herself off as an Asian girl rather than looking like Anne of Green Gables. But I figure Bellisario's Maxim applies to some extent also.

And there you have it. At this point none of that is really a spoiler, other than perhaps breaking any notion that Fred knew what the hell he was doing all along. This is pretty much how MT rolls, given that twice characters have turned out to be related just because Fred gave an important new character the same surname that he'd used on some other character a while back. Plus there are plenty of other examples of stuff where the big secret conspiracy crap was established to the audience well before the writers worked out where there were actually going with it, and many of those showed the cracks too.
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by darrin » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:52 pm

iffy wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:54 pm
[Miho]'s spoken in... Gaelic...
Umm, when in the comic are you claiming this happened?

Most excellent search ninja search diligently yet not find evidence for claim.

EDIT:
paarfi wrote:Mo Dhia
Ooh, forgot about that one, thanks.
Last edited by darrin on Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by paarfi » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:10 pm

darrin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:52 pm
iffy wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:54 pm
[Miho]'s spoken in... Gaelic...
Umm, when in the comic are you claiming this happened?

Most excellent search ninja search diligently yet not find evidence for claim.
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Invisigoth » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:44 pm

Well Miho isn't particularly fragile either

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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Rapierman » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:58 pm

paarfi wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:10 pm
darrin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:52 pm
iffy wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:54 pm
[Miho]'s spoken in... Gaelic...
Umm, when in the comic are you claiming this happened?

Most excellent search ninja search diligently yet not find evidence for claim.
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The search ninjas are awesome, but in this case you kinda need to know what phrase you're searching for. :)
Had to go to Google Translate for this one, and then tell it to go Irish instead of Japanese. "My god", it says. I've heard that there was an anime called "Oh My Goddess".....

....might be a coincidence, though. :|
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by Initial B » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:48 am

I just realized something: We all know that Miho beat up on Junpei because we're outside the story, but how does Ninjagirl know that? She wasn't there during their fight, was she? If so, I think we have to reassess her demeanor and actions...

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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by paarfi » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:49 am

Initial B wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:48 am
I just realized something: We all know that Miho beat up on Junpei because we're outside the story, but how does Ninjagirl know that? She wasn't there during their fight, was she? If so, I think we have to reassess her demeanor and actions...
Well, she didn't say she thought Miho did it, she just implied that Miho was the reason he was injured, which was an easy guess. She might also have said that to gauge Miho's reaction. Miho didn't deny it.

There's also this from Meimi: "You ninja always think you have to kill people to fix things." [717].
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by darrin » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:29 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:44 pm
Well Miho isn't particularly fragile either
Right but her appearance can be, especially when she's in "sick/dying" mode (however temporary).
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by arimareiji » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:47 pm

darrin wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:08 pm
Patty Acer wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:17 pm
Wow. If the 'Miho is Irish' theory turns out to be true -!
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But I figure Bellisario's Maxim applies to some extent also.
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Re: [1483] Brawler

Post by NinjaDefenestrator » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:28 am

I love reading about the history of comic development. Thank you, Mr. Kremer!

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