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[1521] Letting stuff happen

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GreyWolfe
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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by GreyWolfe » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:55 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:24 pm
A couple of additional strips where it's demonstrated that the whole thing between Piro and Kimi is based on something other than genuine attraction
I think you're underestimating the amount of character development that has gone on since those strips, even if actual relative time has been short.

Let's face it: Kimi might be trouble, but she hasn't been feeding him bullshit for years like Miho has. Perhaps, in a small way, he's a little tired of the obfuscation.
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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Roamer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:34 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:24 pm
Over time there's been a lot of complaints about Miho being "Manipulative"

After rereading quite a few strips, realizing that at the beginning Miho was attempting to get Ping to serve as her surrogate, it's become plain to me that all of Miho's manipulations were in an attempt to put obstacles between herself and Piro.

With this strip she's finally admitted openly that she does in fact want to see him.

I don't necessarily know that what she means is that she wants to interruptus any coitus that may be happening but that she want to start "Seeing him" as in "So, are you seeing anyone now?"

https://megatokyo.com/strip/528

https://megatokyo.com/strip/514

A couple of additional strips where it's demonstrated that the whole thing between Piro and Kimi is based on something other than genuine attraction
I would point out that the second example there was pulled out of Piro by the 'evil twin' - he's not talking to Seraphim there. (You know that, but anyone clicking on the link might not.) So how much of that was her manipulation is up in the air. I think Piro and Kimiko will be great friends, but I don't see the sparks there that make for an amazing relationship. Seriously, if you substitute Miho for Kimiko in the scene where she throws herself into his arms, do you picture him putting her down? Because I sure don't. As long as he is sure she's not playing games, his response will be prompt and...umm...traditional.

I think the point about putting obstacles between her and Piro is an excellent one. When she most needed help - after she was outed by Ping - she went straight to him. Honestly, I doubt she even thought about it, and fer sure didn't think about anyone else who would have been happy to help. (Miho: "I need help" Komugiko: "Here, take my bedroom!") Even the fact that she was likely to run into Largo didn't slow her down.

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Roamer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:40 pm

GreyWolfe wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:55 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:24 pm
A couple of additional strips where it's demonstrated that the whole thing between Piro and Kimi is based on something other than genuine attraction
I think you're underestimating the amount of character development that has gone on since those strips, even if actual relative time has been short.

Let's face it: Kimi might be trouble, but she hasn't been feeding him bullshit for years like Miho has. Perhaps, in a small way, he's a little tired of the obfuscation.
Maybe. It's a fair point, but the reasons for the obfuscation (awesome word) are coming into focus. Maybe she should have fought against her role more, but we're talking about two centuries of being locked into a role. I can't even imagine how that would mess with your head.

I am still wondering if the Kimiko we saw in the hotel was Kimi-zilla, because it seemed pretty tame. Maybe zilla lite? They both seem to take each other's emotional state into account more than is really healthy at some points. Let's face it, when you throw yourself into a guys arms, you're not looking for a discussion. Sad to say, but I can, in fact, see them in the shower together - and nothing happening.*

*[Cue P-K shipper screaming]

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Invisigoth » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:14 pm

Yeah, Kimiko has never has fucked with Piro's head...oh wait!

https://megatokyo.com/strip/870

https://megatokyo.com/strip/871

https://megatokyo.com/strip/872

BTW, those shenanigans are Kimi-zilla in action.


https://megatokyo.com/strip/1513

Panel 2, where Kimiko is about to come unglued is her losing her connection to Miho and becoming the insecure trainwreck that's her normal mode of being.

If it weren't for Miho Kimi would be doing voice work for hentai and maybe even live action porn.

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Roamer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:34 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:14 pm
Yeah, Kimiko has never has fucked with Piro's head...oh wait!

https://megatokyo.com/strip/870

https://megatokyo.com/strip/871

https://megatokyo.com/strip/872

BTW, those shenanigans are Kimi-zilla in action.


https://megatokyo.com/strip/1513

Panel 2, where Kimiko is about to come unglued is her losing her connection to Miho and becoming the insecure trainwreck that's her normal mode of being.

If it weren't for Miho Kimi would be doing voice work for hentai and maybe even live action porn.
Mayyybe a tad harsh there dude. Yeah, she's a trainwreck, but so are a lot of people. And sure, those were shots of Kimi-Z for sure, which makes me wonder what her childhood was like...that looks like an extreme reaction to perceived bullying.

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by cidjen » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:04 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:14 pm
BTW, those shenanigans are Kimi-zilla in action.
Ugh, hello, what happened to 'she wasn't herself' ? (898)
Roamer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:40 pm
Sad to say, but I can, in fact, see them in the shower together - and nothing happening.*
"I had the skin on my back ruined, she was exhausted after cold shower, we fell asleep watching TV, nothing happened!"

or

"We tried, but it wasn't going anywhere, it's not pretty when wounds rub against wounds"

Totally :)
Roamer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:34 pm
Yeah, she's a trainwreck, but so are a lot of people.
Cue Piro the first time at Anna Millers comic 28... Piro wasn't ship-shape then either.

EDIT also compare 627, 628, on Kimiko opening her view on how relationships work... that is more Kimizilla right there, than anything else, I think.

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by darrin » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:27 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 1974 2:56 am
Piro['s ...] natural feelings for Miho are being subverted
Right, all those "natural feelings" based on how well she's been treating him the past few weeks, to say nothing of the Roman-legion-style "burn the barbarian village to the ground and then piss on the ashes" way she ended whatever relationship he thought they had two years ago. I am nearly expecting her to send Phil to the Foxhole to pop his head in the shower and gleefully proclaim that it's been him in a Miho suit the whole time Piro's been in Japan, that he's been a dumbass chump again for the same reason as before.
Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:39 am
By ham, Miho is one selfish succubus deserving of punishment.
Heh, ten or five years ago I woulda tried starting to argue about that, "Aw, she's not so bad, just misunderstood" blah blah whatever. But after promising repeatedly before the bathhouse to tell Piro what the hell was going on, and then deciding not to tell him anything at all (not even the cryptic "what if" stories she told Kimiko), I have a lot more serious doubts than I used to. If she actually shows up at the Foxhole to pop in while Piro is in flagrante, then I'll have a lot less grounds (or desire) for defending her than I thought I did in the past.

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Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:14 pm
Yeah, Kimiko has never has fucked with Piro's head...oh wait!
[870-872]
Ok, no offense, but you have a seriously fucked up idea of what it means to "fuck with someone's head" if you actually think Kimiko was "fucking with Piro's head" there.

It's certainly arguable that she wasn't as justified as she thought she was to be quite that angry at him (if I recall that was the majority viewpoint at the time). But she's certainly not pretending that she's not actually angry in order to fuck with his head or manipulate him; conversely, if anyone claims she's actually not angry, and only pretending to be angry to fuck with his head or manipulate him, then they get to produce evidence to back this up, and explain the apparent lack of any confirmation for this claim in subsequent strips up to the apology hug in Megagamers and night spent sitting on boxes together. Kimiko may not be a submissive little imouto here but she is certainly honest about what she's feeling; she's not trying to back him into a corner to get him to do something, she's just venting about how pissed off she is. (Note her shocked and crushed reaction when he does take action (by leaving); she's surprised precisely because she wasn't expecting him to "do" anything other than listen to her venting.)

Someone (edit it was Roamer, sorry) referred to Kimiko above as a "train wreck" but I think that's a little unfair. She's a roller coaster certainly, and while you may find yourself standing in line thinking "wow, that hill there is way bigger than it looked in the brochure", it is at least out there in the open for you to see, nothing hidden or manipulative about it. If it's too uppy-downy for your tastes you're more than welcome to step out of line and go back to the bumper cars.

Now finding a strip where Miho isn't "fucking with Piro's head", yeah that might be impressive.
Last edited by darrin on Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Invisigoth » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:59 pm

Every single bit of manipulation that Miho has done to Piro has been an act of love.

She knows that in her story her lover is doomed to die tragically before she herself dies.

She does not want that for Piro so she's done what she can to put first Ping and then Kimiko between the two of them in order to prevent that

Piro for his part has now changed her story and she doesn't know what is going to happen next only now Kimiko (and possibly Ping) are still between her and Piro

They're not all in the same Sophomore class in high school here. Miho is ancient now despite her undying youth and she'd gone through a lot of pain for at least 200 years

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by iffy » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:07 pm

To IG's point, at least at the start of Endgames, before anyone knew anything about anyone had nothing to do with love, it was all apparently manipulation. Maybe there's something we don't know yet though. Or a whole lot of something.

We might have an easier time of knowing what Kotone is going through if we knew what she was, and how, and for how long, and why, and to what end. Does it or ever did love any of its targets, including apparently Piro. (Or for that matter, Largo, or Junko, or if Piro is unique and special in the eons gone by or whatever.) If that love was and still applies, the jury might be out on that. Certainly some sort of love for Piro, it seems so sometimes. Yet of course we've all gone over this uncertainty and perception thing before a bunch of times. Including the potential everything Miho is and does is a lie, or all imaginary.

To Darrin's point, yes. The problem appears to be that we never know for sure if Miho is actually being herself and direct and honest, regardless if she seems one way or the other at any given time. But it's pretty clear that when Kimiko is displaying something, she's actually feeling it and thinking it, even when she puts on a happy face to others about it. There seem no end to most of the things we can argue about, but that Kimiko (or Largo, or Erika, and often Piro) can usually almost always be taken at face value, and that they are consistent and usually somewhat predictable, doesn't seem one of those arguing points.

For Piro, when he's strayed over towards the real thing side, it's been pretty obvious what he's trying. (He's not too good at it.) And there are plenty of examples of otherwise, being real. A good example is probably his thoughts about it as portrayed as a discussion with his conscience in 898 Ah, do not abandon those who rely upon you; seems quite a bit that could apply to. Past, present or future. But it's at least somewhat honest, even if it's conflicted. Which maybe also isn't so different than his recent discussion with his conscience.

Yet maybe also being somewhat fluid with honesty and directness (in spite of how bad he usually is at making it seem real) tells us something right there, if we are picking 'ships according to some behaviors. Maybe our two little 'hide things' chameleons do belong together, even if clearly she far outclasses him in every way possible. Which on the other side of that then, if we go with more behaviors done more closely, shy reserved deep-resolve uncertain hesitant self-doubt would put the other pair together. Would is not quite true though, it already has been. So then equally obvious to the face value is that Piro has just chosen fully where it's been for days, the here and now actual, and not the then and gone. Rejected the uncertainty of the past that had been filled in by the mind in not necessarily honest and reasonable ways. To suggest that everything is over and done is certainly premature; but to suggest the choice hasn't already been made is denying the facts.

On that subject, to nobody's and everybody's points, this notion by many here of how Kimiko might act badly, that her behaviors haven't been clear. What is the concern here? When recently has Kimiko been angry or unreasonable, much less a destructive monster. If she ever was a zilla, it was one that cried and wished she hadn't after briefly stomping some buildings, and hasn't stomped anything since. She hasn't done anything like it since 868-870, might be time to let it go, the entire outlook has changed. If the worry is being overly smothering now, there's little recent to support that. What is supposed to happen next, where Kimiko is going to do things that are going to upset or push away Piro? Unless he gets angry at himself for making the decision he made, and whatever that has to do with her might be questionable. That, seems to largely depend, upon what Miho is supposed to be saying about what. That's later though. The question would be if the before applies any longer. That seems no.

In 610, calling Kimiko overbearing and given to turning relationships into train wrecks appears to be more so Erika berating herself. After all, Kimiko is being less than overbearing here, and Erika then starts giving her own self a hard time about how she treats people.

In 887, Erika is once again being insensitive and seeming more to be talking about herself when she "jokes" about Kimiko being dangerous and unpredictable. At least in panel 5 Erika realizes saying Kimiko is a destructive monster just makes Kimiko cry harder. (although fairly characteristically, Erika then sort of blames Kimiko for not getting the joke, although in a softer more kind way; and we should probably be putting it into the context developed starting in 879 anyway).

What then is a kimizilla though. It's an exaggeration of Kimiko that's more Erika. It's an invention of Erika that doesn't describe the state Kimiko is in, despondent, miserable, distressed, remorseful. Even if we don't consider this mainly Erika talking about herself, and consider Kimiko a 'building-stomping monster' and it describes what Kimiko did to Piro's feelings the day before, Kimiko apparently hasn't done anything like that since they made up the next day, days ago. Seems then a stretch to suggest most any of Kimiko's behaviors between 963 and now towards Piro have been smothering or monstrous or bad. Kimiko has been exceptionally empathetic, patient and understanding; that term doesn't apply any longer, if it ever did.

cidjen wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:25 pm
So yes... Piro can lie, for his own purposes, how shocking...
The point there was more along the lines that he's not inexperienced in dealing with the expectations of others, not unfamiliar with projecting appearances, and that whatever has been said and done otherwise or not, we can't fully trust he didn't come to MT to seek out a continuation of Endgames (whatever that entails). Some of it was also that he's seemed to more often indulge in such than the other primary participants have.
re. Piro's experience, there is a scene, where Largo notices, that Piro talks with not just ONE girl, and did not dissolve into a puddle of ooze (620), from Largo's expression we can sort-of tell, it's not Piro's usual setup. So Piro could not talk to girls calmly before... so could not get experiences.
Given some twisting the truth aspect of Piro, perhaps it's not as obvious as it first appears. Although certainly it's not on Analogue levels of obfuscation, and non-committal-pseudo-agreement, and lack of detail. Largo says he knows there's a powerhouse of determination underneath, perhaps suggesting not being calm in some harem ish situation was a bit of a jab at this outer persona. Or if not a dig, Largo suggesting Piro has a difficult time interacting directly with females, perhaps Largo isn't quite as insightful about Piro as he believes. (we do also have the case where Largo seems to have known a lot more about what happened during Endgames than he let on) Although yes it does seem also when it's just casual unimportant stuff, or there's the opportunity for misunderstanding, Piro does seem to make a lot of mistakes in how he interacts.

Still, like a lot of other things, now is not like before. Many things have changed in big ways. How long and how well do we hang onto what parts of how it used to be. When are no longer applicable examples discarded in favor of the now.
What I mean is, Miho would need an act of extraordinary luck, superhuman intervention, commit a crime or a major twist in the story, to get Piro back where she wants him... it still doesn't mean, that he does want her back. What happens to Miho, in his story ?
Does Miho want him anywhere though. That seems it might largely depended on what she wants to talk to him about and why. Also, yes, it doesn't mean he wants her back -- although his most recent decision seems to be no, with him rejecting the remembered past. Yet is back the right way to put it? You can't get something back that you never had. He even says his thoughts were incorrect about it all. Definition and interpretation and perspective if anything ever was.

Doesn't matter in some ways, nobody gets to pick 'ships, they pick themselves, and it seems pretty clear so far where things have been headed recently if not the entire time. Depending on perception of course. Which even still, no matter how much something seems a certain way, it could still be untrue. Or even in a total absence of any sign something is possible, and no logical reason to believe it possible, that thing could still turn out to be the reality. Especially when reality itself doesn't exist until at some arbitrary point where it's created out of nothing. Even if that does draw The Horde, sometimes that happens. Doesn't have to ruin anything, or maybe the fun is things being ruined.

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Roamer » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:06 pm

darrin wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:27 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 1974 2:56 am
Piro['s ...] natural feelings for Miho are being subverted
Right, all those "natural feelings" based on how well she's been treating him the past few weeks, to say nothing of the Roman-legion-style "burn the barbarian village to the ground and then piss on the ashes" way she ended whatever relationship he thought they had two years ago. I am nearly expecting her to send Phil to the Foxhole to pop his head in the shower and gleefully proclaim that it's been him in a Miho suit the whole time Piro's been in Japan, that he's been a dumbass chump again for the same reason as before.
Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:39 am
By ham, Miho is one selfish succubus deserving of punishment.
Heh, ten or five years ago I woulda tried starting to argue about that, "Aw, she's not so bad, just misunderstood" blah blah whatever. But after promising repeatedly before the bathhouse to tell Piro what the hell was going on, and then deciding not to tell him anything at all (not even the cryptic "what if" stories she told Kimiko), I have had a lot more serious doubts than I used to. If she actually shows up at the Foxhole to pop in while Piro is in flagrante, then I'll have a lot less grounds (or desire) for defending her than I thought I did in the past.
Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:14 pm
Yeah, Kimiko has never has fucked with Piro's head...oh wait!
[870-872]
Ok, no offense, but you have a seriously fucked up idea of what it means to "fuck with someone's head" if you actually think Kimiko was "fucking with Piro's head" there.

It's certainly arguable that she wasn't as justified as she thought she was to be quite that angry at him (if I recall that was the majority viewpoint at the time). But she's certainly not pretending that she's not actually angry in order to fuck with his head or manipulate him; conversely, if anyone claims she's actually not angry, and only pretending to be angry to fuck with his head or manipulate him, then they get to produce evidence to back this up, and explain the apparent lack of any confirmation for this claim in subsequent strips up to the apology hug in Megagamers and night spent sitting on boxes together. Kimiko may not be a submissive little imouto here but she is certainly honest about what she's feeling; she's not trying to back him into a corner to get him to do something, she's just venting about how pissed off she is. (Note her shocked and crushed reaction when he does take action (by leaving); she's surprised precisely because she wasn't expecting him to "do" anything other than listen to her venting.)

Someone (edit it was Roamer, sorry) referred to Kimiko above as a "train wreck" but I think that's a little unfair. She's a roller coaster certainly, and while you may find yourself standing in line thinking "wow, that hill there is way bigger than it looked in the brochure", it is at least out there in the open for you to see, nothing hidden or manipulative about it. If it's too uppy-downy for your tastes you're more than welcome to step out of line and go back to the bumper cars.

Now finding a strip where Miho isn't "fucking with Piro's head", yeah that might be impressive.
Ask and ye shall receive...

https://megatokyo.com/strip/1275

https://megatokyo.com/strip/1279

And that was just the first storyline that popped into my head.

I would agree that Kimi's not fucking with his head deliberately...that's real anger. But it comes out of nowhere and is directed at the one person who effectively helped, which is why I say she's a train wreck. Not all the time - but that makes the moments when Kimi-Zilla comes out to play so very jarring and upsetting for everyone else. And her too, based on her reaction the next morning. Seriously, do you wanna date somebody who would do that after you stepped all the way out of your comfort zone to make sure she wasn't taken advantage of by the rabid fanboys? This scene, plus Piro's expression at hearing Miho's 'half-naked' comment in 1279, are what made me decide that Kimiko simply didn't work for Piro. Him not reacting to Kimiko's throwing herself into his arms just provides extra evidence.

As for Miho...I used to think she was the top-predator manipulator in this jungle, but what we've been seeing since she 'died' and Piro visited her - not to mention Yuki - has changed that. If the story we are hearing is true then she's THE biggest victim in the story. And it's amazing that she's at all sane after two centuries, virtual or not.

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Roamer » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:45 pm

cidjen wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:04 am
Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:14 pm
BTW, those shenanigans are Kimi-zilla in action.
Ugh, hello, what happened to 'she wasn't herself' ? (898)
Roamer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:40 pm
Sad to say, but I can, in fact, see them in the shower together - and nothing happening.*
"I had the skin on my back ruined, she was exhausted after cold shower, we fell asleep watching TV, nothing happened!"

or

"We tried, but it wasn't going anywhere, it's not pretty when wounds rub against wounds"

Totally :)
Roamer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:34 pm
Yeah, she's a trainwreck, but so are a lot of people.
Cue Piro the first time at Anna Millers comic 28... Piro wasn't ship-shape then either.

EDIT also compare 627, 628, on Kimiko opening her view on how relationships work... that is more Kimizilla right there, than anything else, I think.
"We were both tired and sore, so we very carefully washed each other and dried each other off, then smiled and got dressed"

Honestly, Kimiko in 628 sounds perfectly reasonable here. You take someone imperfect and view them as perfect because you love them...or you accept them as they are. Nobody is perfect.

I wonder, if we did a poll in the forums, who would everyone pick as "closest to perfect?" I have a candidate....who is neither two centuries old, nor a skittish former voice actor with too much potential power.

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by cidjen » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:28 am

iffy wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:07 pm
Still, like a lot of other things, now is not like before. Many things have changed in big ways.
(nod)
Roamer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:45 pm
Honestly, Kimiko in 628 sounds perfectly reasonable here.
Yeah that is the strongest of what she let out of herself so far. But that was before the radio show, the despicable fanboys and the AM train wreck. I wouldn't be surprised if she did follow up with what she found and actually think and believe it's perfect. Maybe until reality sets in, but still, for the moment, it's perfect. And she'd expect Piro to play along with that.
Roamer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:45 pm
"We were both tired and sore, so we very carefully washed each other and dried each other off, then smiled and got dressed"
Well maybe not as far as that, she has barely anything to wear, her hospital gown is probably needing a thorough wash, as is her lingerie, and his clothes are all dusty (and bloody on the back of the tshirt) either. Not sure if they wanna wear any of that again before washing.
Roamer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:45 pm
I wonder, if we did a poll in the forums, who would everyone pick as "closest to perfect?"
that would leave us Megumi or Junko if we're talking about 'real girls' only ;)
Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:24 pm
(514, 528) A couple of additional strips where it's demonstrated that the whole thing between Piro and Kimi is based on something other than genuine attraction
Oh, she says there, that she has quirks, and has trouble believing Piro would want to put up with those... but that was then. And he is being manipulated by what he mistakes for his own conscience.

Compare Piro's expression in 1154:5, when he expresses to Kimiko how he feels when he has not seen her 'all week'....

Since then Kimiko watched and helped Piro 'save' Miho and 'saved' Miho herself too. That in 528 and 514, was them on the first steps... the little 'i can't yet believe it' moment before real infatuation ensues. It may not have been 'I can't stand to be apart' quite much before or around 1154, but after the hospital and Foxhole, who knows.

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by iffy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:02 pm

Sometimes it's difficult to tell the difference between {things like slow, hesitant, unsure, self-conscious, tentative, worried} and disinterest. Still, things like 372, 613, 664, 953 might tell some of that part of that story. Whatever baggage Piro has isn't necessarily impactful on that in and of itself, but likely more telling is that Kimiko is apparently working to help him get rid of it, being supportive about what's holding him back, is understanding about it. Towards what, perhaps examples of more context are 1231:4 and 1400:6 Yet certainly the unresolved is often unclear. It might be unlikely though that nothing at all but bathing and dressing has happened in the lava room. Unless they were both so tired they fell asleep again. Which might also seem somewhat unlikely given the entire situation.

That Kimiko and Piro are working towards something, whether they get there or not, has been clearly going on and advancing since around Chapter 2. That there used to be something online with Miho in game and chat (or is that the other way around) which still persists is clear, and that something is going on now in revolving around it is also clear, out here in Megatokyo and in ways within Endgames. Both of these directions, and the potential neither happens, are not just what the performers are aware of, so is the audience, even the ones not paying attention to any of it can still be drawn in. Both Miho and Kimiko have their supporters and detractors in all types of audiences. How exactly everyone involved actually thinks and about what, that is to them and the audiences undetermined and ongoing. There is no certainty yet on what is or how it works out.

It could be said that people who don't like each other don't get that close or that angry with each other, don't make up, don't attempt to develop a professional and personal relationship with each other, don't help each other solve each other's problems, and don't end up in the lava room. What that potentially directly has to do with anyone else remains to be seen.


Roamer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:45 pm
Honestly, Kimiko in 628 sounds perfectly reasonable here. You take someone imperfect and view them as perfect because you love them...or you accept them as they are. Nobody is perfect.
There's been some updating in the way she thinks about it, which we might say is pretty consistent still. More recent things. What she talks about on-air at the radio shows. The set of dialog with Ping starting in 938, events with Dom Piro Miho around 1023, the conversation with Miho circa 1077.
Roamer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:06 pm
1275 1279
Even ignoring the lack of much any detail. Aside from the picture and its source, the only things she really much admits to are either fairly obvious on the surface or things he already knew. Just because she's apparently being honest, serious and non-playful, doesn't mean she still isn't managing the narrative. Perhaps only done somewhat differently because it's another context, or because it's essentially a different story, but still controlling it somehow.

If it counts as digging her foul evil into his noggin is another question I suppose, but still. Although I tend to believe it's more subconscious and instinctual on her part, based upon those Analogue, the real thing, and 'source of stories' aspects of her. That is, we don't know if it's on purpose and with her realizing it, or even if she's lost some of her powers, become more human, whatever.

Either way it's a matter of perception if this or that is or isn't her manipulating him. Just as it's subjective if what's going on is or isn't artifice or fantasy or manipulation or more, during the entirety of the (ongoing?) demonstration that explicitly started in 1310.
I would agree that Kimi's not .... deliberately...that's real anger. But it comes out of nowhere and is directed at the one person who effectively helped, which is why I say she's a train wreck. Not all the time - but that makes the moments when Kimi-Zilla comes out to play so very jarring and upsetting for everyone else.
Extenuating circumstances. First, they're still both at the time figuring things out (in a situation with many weird unusual unexpected things) and second, her anger is mostly at herself. Lashing out at him was a jerk move, but as others have mentioned, she didn't expect him to react to her the same way back. Or at all. We can see it in her face in 871:2 -- she's already regretting what she did. That Erika, without even knowing the details, unfunnily jokes later about Kimiko being a destructive monster, is less than a reason to expect there ever was any such thing as a kimizilla waiting in the wings, like a horde ready to strike at story incongruity. Even if Erika's projected comment ever did apply, it doesn't any longer.

Kimiko's actions after the Anna Millers Otaku incident were an aberration, the only time we saw something like it before iirc was around the beer garden. Which is to say Kimiko wasn't any better at dealing with situations she didn't know how to handle than Piro was. And there's apparently been nothing like that behavior since Anna Millers, even the opposite we might say. 1154, 1205, 1231, 1285, 1400, 1441, during and after the rescue. Not that there's really been a sort of a situation since 953/954/956/957 where there might have been a fight where somebody was being unreasonable, but still, regardless, the signs are there is no such thing as a kz.

Either way, as his conscience mentions he was right to stick up for himself even if it was 'mean' and 'makes him feel bad', but it doesn't establish there's no relationship there; if anything it establishes that there is. That she lashed out at him because she was angry at herself, and then they later made up, supports the idea he really does like her and she really does like him. If that is enough, if other things intrude, that is another story. Don't worry though, we have an entity involved that creates them.

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:28 pm

darrin wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:27 pm
Heh, ten or five years ago I woulda tried starting to argue about that, "Aw, she's not so bad, just misunderstood" blah blah whatever. But after promising repeatedly before the bathhouse to tell Piro what the hell was going on, and then deciding not to tell him anything at all (not even the cryptic "what if" stories she told Kimiko), I have had a lot more serious doubts than I used to. If she actually shows up at the Foxhole to pop in while Piro is in flagrante, then I'll have a lot less grounds (or desire) for defending her than I thought I did in the past.
Join the anti-Miho bandwagon... well... we are not enough to have an actual bandwagon... we are more of an eclectic bikers ward... bring your own transportation... no restrictrictions... just hate Miho and constantly point out how foul she is for the good of the order. :D

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Invisigoth » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:55 pm

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:28 pm
darrin wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:27 pm
Heh, ten or five years ago I woulda tried starting to argue about that, "Aw, she's not so bad, just misunderstood" blah blah whatever. But after promising repeatedly before the bathhouse to tell Piro what the hell was going on, and then deciding not to tell him anything at all (not even the cryptic "what if" stories she told Kimiko), I have had a lot more serious doubts than I used to. If she actually shows up at the Foxhole to pop in while Piro is in flagrante, then I'll have a lot less grounds (or desire) for defending her than I thought I did in the past.
Join the anti-Miho bandwagon... well... we are not enough to have an actual bandwagon... we are more of an eclectic bikers ward... bring your own transportation... no restrictrictions... just hate Miho and constantly point out how foul she is for the good of the order. :D
More like the guys at the gym who made a group buy on some bulk whey protein powder that really messes their stomachs up and they keep fogging up the bench press area....

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:53 pm

LoL WK LoL

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by darrin » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:28 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:59 pm
Every single bit of manipulation that Miho has done to Piro has been an act of love.

She knows that in her story her lover is doomed to die tragically before she herself dies.
I do still believe Miho was being honest (for Miho, i.e. "the truth" but not necessarily "the whole truth" :roll:) when she said "people who love [me] die in [my] story"; and by extension I find it plausible that she believes she was saving his life when she ended their online relationship (and I won't argue against your claim that that extends to more recent behavior involving Ping and Kimiko, that seems equally plausible).

What makes it hard for me to extend that all the way to Miho "loving" Piro is the way she chose to end that relationship. (A lot of this is in a way parallel to the other argument we had a few threads back, about whether Piro saving Miho's life (cpr -> hospital -> pacemaker) was "proof" that he loves her; I didn't notice that parallelism at the time though, so thanks for getting me to think about that.) Geeze, even Fry and Leela came up with a "gentler" way to let Calculon down easy when Coilette needed to "leave his life abruptly", as opposed to just saying that it was Bender the dude-bot all along. Miho literally just needed to send Piro an email like, I dunno, Hello, this is Miho's father, sorry but she died last week from that heart condition she told you about. But instead of that or dozens of other not-so-hard-to-come-up-with scenarios, the first one she deliberately goes for is the one that makes him feel both maximally humiliated and like a piece of shit. When he brings up this specific aspect of the break-up, not why she dumped him mind you but just why she did the whole pretending-to-be-a-guy-ha-you-got-played-dumbass bit, she completely blows off the question, responding only to the complete sidetrack issue of Phil actually being "a sweet guy". ("Don't be mean" :shock: yeah Piro is the mean one in this interaction.) No I am not claiming 100% certainty here, I am still around 85% (the same number I think I claimed a while ago for Piro loving Kimiko as opposed to Miho; not that the numbers should necessarily be the same but that's about how good the "evidence" so far feels to me in either direction). I'm just saying her behavior in these specific incidents doesn't really do much to assuage my doubts so to speak.
Roamer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:06 pm
Ask and ye shall receive...
[1275-1279]
Huh, well, to be honest, from where I am sitting that whole scene strikes me as some of the most manipulative she's ever been. (On the old forums ten years ago when folks called her manipulative I was always arguing against that, claiming there were plenty of alternative explanations for her antics, so my finding her manipulative here isn't just part of a long-standing prejudice on my part.) "Oh, hey, I shouldn't be here at all, but I just couldn't help myself, I knew YOU wouldn't be mean to poor beleaguered me, of course I didn't come here to mess with you, I was Fleeing from Great Danger, what kind of danger you ask, well, I can't really say, but it could be pretty dangerous danger let me tell you, (well not really because I can reincarnate but you don't know about that ha ha), no don't you worry about me, you go have fun with that OTHER girl, you know, the one who's not In Great Danger right now unlike some people I could mention (I'm winking and pointing at myself did you notice, that means I'm the one In Great Danger), no I'll just be going now, come WITH me? No no don't be silly, I couldn't possibly, it would be Too Perilous, no not the good kind of Perilous, no really just because I'm a helpless fragile girl collapsed on your doorstep (so to speak) doesn't mean you have to actually go do anything about it, no really you don't have to well ok since you insist." Which would be bad enough except it leads directly into the other bit I am always going on about too much, how she repeatedly promises on the way to the bath house that she will tell him exactly what the heck is going on, but then at the bath house either decides not to after all... or never intended to keep the promise in the first place.

Now, ok, I will definitely admit that if someone is in the "Miho loves Piro, no questions about it" camp, then the above is all bullshit. Of course (since Miho really loves Piro) she would be drawn to him (especially if she actually is scared of whatever danger she's actually in), of course she would be too embarrassed to admit that she loves and needs him at the moment, of course she'd resist the idea of his risking himself to help her in said danger, and of course her resistance would eventually cave when he (the guy she loves) repeatedly insists on coming along. Again I'm not one of the ones claiming 100% on their viewpoint here, I totally get that the "manipulative" aspects of that scene are pretty much inversely proportional to the "she actually loves him" aspects. I'm just saying that's what the world looks like to someone not in the "she definitely loves him" camp.
Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:28 pm
Join the anti-Miho bandwagon... no restrictrictions... just hate Miho and constantly point out how foul she is for the good of the order. :D
:shock: Jenkies, I could be the only Miho thrall in the anti-Miho bandwagon...

Or the only anti-Miho bandwagoneer in the Miho Thrall Inner Sanctum... :ph34r:

Wow, I've never been in a mindfsck before... One way or other this is gonna get me killed I think, just a question of who by. (Inner Sanctum executions are quite lengthy and horrific, but the Inquisitional Procedures that must be followed first can drag on for years. Teddy Justice on the other hand is likely to be swift and summary, but the actual event would no doubt be relatively "let's get this over with BLAM" quick...)
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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by HakuRyoku » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:09 pm

I would just like to point out that Miho never said she would 'tell' Piro what was up with her, nor did she ever promise to tell him. In 1309 before they leave MegaGamers Miho says she would 'show' Piro whats up with her (if he left the store with her ofcourse).
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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by S1arburst » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:04 pm

Roamer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:06 pm

Ask and ye shall receive...

https://megatokyo.com/strip/1275

https://megatokyo.com/strip/1279
While I don't like Miho, I don't think she's being deliberatively manipulative here. She IS being very unclear, which is one of the top 10 things I don't like about her. What I really hate about this scene though, is when Piro makes her feel sorry, she doesn't apologize. She neatly turns the feelings into an attack on Piro. Now tell me that's the kind of behavior you want in a girlfriend. Almost as good as her flipping out and calling Piro stupid in the hospital when she's never explained any of her resurrection/horde situation.
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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Roamer » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:00 am

darrin wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:28 pm
Wow, I've never been in a mindfsck before... One way or other this is gonna get me killed I think, just a question of who by. (Inner Sanctum executions are quite lengthy and horrific, but the Inquisitional Procedures that must be followed first can drag on for years. Teddy Justice on the other hand is likely to be swift and summary, but the actual event would no doubt be relatively "let's get this over with BLAM" quick...)
Don't worry - the Inner Sanctum's Strike group uses a quick double-tap. We got bored with the Procedures too. ;)

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Roamer » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:37 am

HakuRyoku wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:09 pm
I would just like to point out that Miho never said she would 'tell' Piro what was up with her, nor did she ever promise to tell him. In 1309 before they leave MegaGamers Miho says she would 'show' Piro whats up with her (if he left the store with her ofcourse).
S1arburst wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:04 pm

While I don't like Miho, I don't think she's being deliberatively manipulative here. She IS being very unclear, which is one of the top 10 things I don't like about her. What I really hate about this scene though, is when Piro makes her feel sorry, she doesn't apologize. She neatly turns the feelings into an attack on Piro. Now tell me that's the kind of behavior you want in a girlfriend. Almost as good as her flipping out and calling Piro stupid in the hospital when she's never explained any of her resurrection/horde situation.
I suspect that she was unable to talk about what was up with her before she fought through and explained it to Kimiko [1401]- after she thought she had caused Piro's death. I don't care how manipulative an actor you are, the expressions on her face in those panels practically define emotions. Panic, shock, fear, self-recrimination, resignation, anguish, and self-hatred, all there. And immediately after? The story inflicts a heart attack, to try and force her back into her mold. I think, just possibly, this is the point at which she decided to die - or be free.

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by cidjen » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:08 am

Roamer wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:37 am
I don't care how manipulative an actor you are, the expressions on her [Miho's] face in those panels practically define emotions.
Well I suppose it's because in her story, Miho's not an actress... she is the Player, she's the Analogue of a Story. Emotionally, a teenager. She's suspicious of people hiding their true emotions (she called Piro less honest than Largo back then), in previous comic she's just realized now, what Kimiko's true power really is... an actress who is trained on amplifying emotions. Miho did not see it when they were talking after she dragged Kimiko out of the cafe 'splosion, at the CoE, she welled up with emotions that Kimiko released at her... Just imagine what Kimiko could do, when she'd actually personally hate somebody (and no, the AM Train Wreck wasn't 'hate' and was also 'misdirected')

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by Yl33 D4 N00b » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:05 am

Interesting that even though Yaku doesn't consider herself to be like her mother, she'll resort to violent threats ("I'll bite you", vs. "I'll kick you" in 1440).

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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by darrin » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:14 pm

HakuRyoku wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:09 pm
...Miho never said she would 'tell' Piro what was up with her... Miho says she would 'show' Piro whats up with her...
If Miho actually proffered such a defense, my response to her would be, "Yeah, semantic games. That's definitely the way to prove to everyone you're not a manipulative little minx." :P
Roamer wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:00 am
Don't worry - the Inner Sanctum's Strike group uses a quick double-tap. We got bored with the Procedures too. ;)
What??? No eviscerations? No garroting? Tell me they didn't get rid of the acid bath, for crying out loud? Sheesh, if someone is "bored" by unending years of physically torturing a respondant while psychologically torturing them with the ever-present (yet endlessly delayed) threat of slow execution, well, that someone just does not belong in the torture-and-slow-execution business.

It almost sounds like the Inner Sanctum Strike Group needs an Unannounced but Purely Administrative and Not At All Anything to Panic About visit from the Inquisitorial Oversight Subcommittee on Suspected Heretical Activities. Not that _I_ would know anything about it of course, I don't even own a black face-covering hood with purple ribbons woven in the back.
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Re: [1521] Letting stuff happen

Post by arimareiji » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:50 pm

GreyWolfe wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:55 pm
Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:24 pm
A couple of additional strips where it's demonstrated that the whole thing between Piro and Kimi is based on something other than genuine attraction
[emphasis added]

I think you're underestimating the amount of character development that has gone on since those strips, even if actual relative time has been short.

Let's face it: Kimi might be trouble, but she hasn't been feeding him bullshit for years like Miho has. Perhaps, in a small way, he's a little tired of the obfuscation.
This seems like a bit of a double standard, of the kind we're all guilty of at some point (cue "that b**** eating crackers" meme, which apparently has some scientific basis).

If you can't see that Miho is changing for the better, it might be good to doff the "polarized" sunglasses. (^_~)

~~~~~
cidjen wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:04 am
"We tried, but it wasn't going anywhere, it's not pretty when wounds rub against wounds"
I'm curious: Was it deliberate that in addition to the literal meaning, this also makes a beautiful metaphor for a relationship where unresolved issues are in direct conflict? (i.e. abandonment versus being smothered)

And because I'm me, it also brings to mind a cringy Kevin Smith story about the first time he and his now-wife got intimate.
You have been warned.Show
It started with dry-humping, and unfortunately Kevin Jr had freed himself from the confines of undies to make contact with his zipper. Things went farther, but by then Kevin Jr had been rubbed raw. (Remember, I did warn you.)
~~~~~
darrin wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:27 pm
Ok, no offense, but you have a seriously fucked up idea of what it means to "fuck with someone's head" if you actually think Kimiko was "fucking with Piro's head" there.
I feel so sorry for anyone learning English as a second language.
  • Lovemaking is widely considered the worst curse you can wish on someone (i.e. "F**k you"). :?
  • And "no offense", despite apparently meaning the opposite, is usually roughly synonymous with that curse.
~~~~~
iffy wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:07 pm
somewhat fluid with honesty
Imo, this is a beautiful phrase to summarize the direction communication has been going in Western society. That, and "gaslighting".

~~~~~
Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:28 pm
Join the anti-Miho bandwagon... well... we are not enough to have an actual bandwagon... we are more of an eclectic bikers ward... bring your own transportation... no restrictrictions... just hate Miho and constantly point out how foul she is for the good of the order. :D
If we're talking wagons, I would have guessed one of these with "He-Man Miho-Haters Club" roughly painted on the side. (^_~)
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