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[1520] What I've been feeling

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Re: [1520] What I've been feeling

Post by Invisigoth » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:40 pm

Well in all honesty I don't recall ever meeting anyone whose reaction to becoming jealous was to get *squicked* and scream "EWW EWW EWW" while waving their arms about.

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Re: [1520] What I've been feeling

Post by iffy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:57 am

Because it isn't something 14 year old girls would do around boys or adults?
Not that Miho is, but none of us having met an Analogue, in this sort of story environment or otherwise, who can tell for sure.
Perhaps an MT example is more like the Asako option

Yet that's not as much a reaction to becoming jealous, as it is absorbing the behavior of what's around after being forced to feel?
Still, agreed, it's not looking as much a jealous thing as it is a disgusted thing. Although perhaps to this sort of character in this sort of story, that's the same thing.

I guess when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
When you don't have simpler explanations, when it's not a sort of situation where generally applies, what remains but the complex.
Or when lacking simple answers that can be determined, the ideas get larger, more convoluted and more outrageous as imagination takes hold.

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Re: [1520] What I've been feeling

Post by cidjen » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:26 pm

Oh but Miho may have memories and experiences of shousands of years old woman, but emotionally she has not outgrown her body... that of a 14 yo...
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Re: [1520] What I've been feeling

Post by iffy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:28 pm

But it would be Miho's mind going ewww. A reaction more akin to that of the expected/perceived and actual company she's keeping, regardless of her physical age. (rather than the physical state itself is causing the reaction mental as well)

Perhaps we should say that most of what Miho does isn't like anyone anyone here has ever met. Just considering recently, certainly it's unlikely any normal human adult is going to (much less the day after cardiac arrest and pacemaker insertion) be ripping themselves out of a hospital bed and destroying much of the building and beating up a bunch of burley men, and then feeling the effects of somebody else dying for them so the story ends like it's supposed to, as they are being whisked away into a new scenario by a ninja tasked to destroy them.

If we take it on face value, that she is getting feels from Kimiko and Piro and that is the cause, what sort of reaction does a usual person have when the psychic and physical link to their actress and their old on-line love interest gives them emotional and physical reactions as well? Perhaps that result is expected to be jealously followed by going EWW EWW EWW and waving their arms around. We don't really know what an Analogue's expected reaction is any more than we know what she's thinking or what her age is either mentally or physically.

Is she between 12 and 34 years old and making it all up, or something that doesn't really actually exist as it is being perceived? If we go with that version of the story she told Kimiko, she could be both mentally and physically some 200 to 400 years old. Which is somewhat problematic if she's supposed to be Kotone and human and still around, that there is no origin story earlier than that, and she's expected to be from the 1800s or such. If she's some Gaelic goddess, perhaps body and mind are somewhat not ancient but near eternal or even (conceivably) outdating that of the current universe itself. Did it transform itself into a contemporary female around the age of Kimiko or Piro, or take over the body of somebody of whatever age that body is. If she's actually some force of nature inhabiting a body (or the illusion of one) perhaps there is no mental age, and a physicality that may be as old as Ping, weeks or months potentially.

Which considering that further. If Ping is essentially human, the result of some hybrid cybernetic cloning sort of process followed by a natural-ish aging process, she would be as many years old as the process took. Which is also an idea, maybe Sony (or whoever made Ping) has MG on staff, and they did much the same as what happened to zom zom, instead of starting with a shrunken zombie zilla, took a robot and magicked her to human. That also could be potentially some way to explain Miho, she got magicked into an embodiment of the source of stories. However long ago or by whomever did so.

Which is also just all more ways to explain we don't even know what Miho is, much less the age, or how she should be acting or reacting to whatever it is she's actually acting to or reacting to right now.

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Re: [1520] What I've been feeling

Post by cidjen » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:04 pm

It's still not impossible that Miho is actually receiving Piro's emotions (and mistaking them for Kimiko's) - a 'guy's' emotions are a bit 'alien' to 'girls' no ? :) so would warrant the 'eww ! ewww!' reaction :)
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Re: [1520] What I've been feeling

Post by iffy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:41 pm

Perhaps the key part of that is not answering the question "what sort of reaction does a usual person have when the psychic and physical link to their actress and their old on-line love interest gives them emotional and physical reactions as well" (since probably no usual person has an actual direct psychic and physical link to anyone, and lacks the experience of receiving the emotions and physicality of others via psychic means or alpha wave sharing or whatever) but in learning what exactly Miho is reacting to first.

Which, we can infer+ the reaction is being disgusted, and that it was due to determining the weird feelings she was apparently having were being caused by Kimiko playing her, and realizing what the weird feelings were eventually. We can certainly conclude Miho was clueless anyone playing her would pass along emotional or physical aspects, and that Miho had never had this happen. We can further explain it as being emotional mainly (due to love, actual concern, kindness, desire; what was going on the first time we saw Miho sense something) or physical mainly (whatever has been going on) or some of both.

Certainly we could also guess that it's all just reactions for the story and done in this way because of who is there creating the story and what kind of story it is/will be.

Either way, we don't know exactly what Miho is reacting to, really we can only guess, no matter how obvious it seems it might be. And we're right in the middle of it, so I'll refrain from guessing if it's what it looks like. Is it something very anime, and if so, what kind? I'll leave that for later when hopefully something more is established story-wise.

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Re: [1520] What I've been feeling

Post by Invisigoth » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:51 pm

You need to stop ignoring the fact that Kimiko was PRETENDING TO BE MIHO!

In other words, Kimiko was acting, she was playing the role of Miho and established an extremely strong connection precisely because the guy she's seducing in that role is Piro, the man that Miho loves.

Piro and Miho are in love and Kimiko has managed to place herself in Miho's role. She's now established what is possibly the most powerful connection that anyone who's ever told Miho's story back to Miho.

Once again, Kimiko is physically fusking Piro and simultaneously mind raping Miho.

Yeah, it's squicky and and disturbing. At least Fred found something else for Megumi to do because I am not sure what Miho would do if she joined Kimi and Piro in a threesome

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Re: [1520] What I've been feeling

Post by iffy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:05 pm

Not at all ignoring that. Agreed. Certainly Kimiko was pretending to be, acting as, dying for, replacing Miho. Substituting for Miho. Portraying Miho, to those needing the proper story ending Miho's expected demanded required demise that Miho keeps not having. Except for all the main players who were around and knew, everyone else thought it was Miho.

Kimiko was being Miho. Quite agreed.

Piro rescued Kimiko, with some confusion on everyone's part (their own, hordes potential, the audience in MT and comic) as to when and how much Kimiko started thinking she was Miho or when and how much Piro thought it was Miho; Kimiko was behaving at least a bit odd, and despite his constantly calling her Kimiko and acting as such, his conscience brings up that he wasn't 100% in that mindset ( he's not sure he wasn't thinking back to Miho at times).

That Kimiko is playing Miho isn't in question, it's one of the most spelled out explained directly described things that's ever been in story. It's also pretty plain we fade out on hair washing, some unknown time from a few seconds to longer goes by. And Miho has a reaction the next comic. No doubt about what we see.

Also clear is that there's a past connection by Miho with Piro (although seemingly 100% unphysical in both past and present from all we've seen, read and been told) and a current connection with Kimiko (they bond at Ikebukuro, they have adventures since). As an Analogue, we'd expect Miho to have some bond to all those direct involved in her stories, and pretty clearly this is a story (some stories) involving Miho quite a lot. Since Endgames for Piro, and even before for Meimi, Yuki, Junko, Mugi, Masamichi and Erika. Piro isn't the first, but he seems the only one who cybered it up with Miho, or we could say Moh was cybering it up even more with Pirogoeth. And either way it's unclear if he's in love with anyone or ever was, or if he was just locked into fondly remembering a past quite difficult to let go of.

But, was Miho actually feeling all of that in the rescue and beyond, or is it just story. Is she really real and so on, or is this just more of her usual expected vague convoluted unanswered potential tricks again. Is she reacting to love, or sex, or anything else, or is she just acting grossed out for the kids because she's in her new story, or some variation of the old one (which, as we know, with her not dying, has not ended, we could say)

That Kimiko is playing Miho, for all of the validity or lack thereof with Miho's histrionics or looks of hate or disgust or surprise, is one thing. Can't be ignored. It doesn't establish Miho is actually feeling anything from them or is in love with Piro any more or less than she ever has been. Which remains essentially perceptional opinion for the most part.

Maybe it's wrong to not accept what Miho is probably trying to convey, that she's got this total physical and psychic link to one or both of Kimiko and Piro. Maybe it's wrong to doubt she could be so uninformed and surprised. Perhaps the way it should be looked at, is to trust her and what she seems to be doing and acting like. Yet, she is Miho, she is an Analogue, she is the real thing, she is story source, and nobody knows what she is exactly, or even that she actually exists.

We'll see if what seems might be true is. And maybe it is true, but it's not over to see. So Miho could very well just be being Miho.

No matter who is playing her or not.

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Re: [1520] What I've been feeling

Post by cidjen » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:23 am

@Invisigoth i am not not ignoring that... In fact I think it plays well out with my theory of what Miho Has Been Feeling is Piro's emotions... But in fact it's Miho's own emotions, amplified by the Actress Kimiko and leaked back to 'general transmitter'... Piro can't receive emotions from Miho, but boy, can Miho receive his. It's actually visible during their conversation in the flat at the beginning of chapter 11. Her disses don't play out on him, but when he shouts at her, it's awful.
Yeah I know it's not the simplest form or theory in the world. But we still avoid creating excessive construcs, and not every simple answer is always right.

EDIT: there is another possibility though, if the 'bond of love' is established by just enough interaction, physical or mental, then yeah... this may be going on between Miho and Kimiko, as they had some before (mental before Animate, physical when they were cross-dressing at the hostpital).
Still the theory of Piro affecting Miho with his emotions stands unfazed.
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Re: [1520] What I've been feeling

Post by iffy » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:23 pm

Deriving conclusions from perspective while things are ongoing. It kind of looks like a lot of things it could be, depending on how locked into things someone is about believing others do or must be believing it the same way they are. What else they might consider possible, rather than what they've decided already, how much room to adjust is there. Some are also locked into not wanting her to be some controllable empathetic sponge who is so clueless that she has no idea this could happen from somebody playing her, even in the face of seeming to have been working on putting together just this sort of scenario. Maybe those perceptions of what's going on are in error too, invalidating the notion even.

But if an Analogue unexpectedly and unknowingly gets never-experienced-previously long-distance psychokinetic mentaltelegraphy physical feedback from those they are inspiring and empowering with story, maybe that seems like love and feels like hate and disgust, teenage girls around or not. Sure, it is possible Miho might also deeply somewhere inside love Piro and always has since they met in an MMORPG and chatted and exchanged pictures online. It could be only that Miho simply has about the worst possible ways of going about everything involved in this love, including forgetting all about him for years, and when he shows up doing everything wrong in ways that would fail to show love or interest and would also tend to drive away most anyone. The same kind of goes for him too.

If Mugi was correct and Piro can't gap the way he did, maybe he's absorbed some of Miho's "Analogue Powers". Him along with Kimiko and Ping. Love or not. Maybe those powers and the link that we'd image goes along with it let Piro gap, let Kimiko sub for Miho in the story-death, yet affected Ping differently because she's cybernetic and isn't part of the 'Piro loves Miho' scenario or 'recreate Kotone in Sight' scenario or 'get Piro and Kimiko together' scenario or 'fix Piro's fanciful ideas of the past' scenario or whatever it is. Although if it was Ping that yanked Miho and Piro through notspace and she is the only one who absorbed something, maybe this 'whatever it is that potentially or seemingly is going on' with Piro and Kimiko thing is another matter entirely. What sort of link might Miho have had with Erika, if Miho had to absorb all the badness of Erika quitting, even though Erika was playing another character, perhaps that character was derived from Miho also. Is that applicable to anything, and then how about past interactions like with Meimi/Masamichi, Yuki, and Junko. That line of questioning seems not very helpful though, as none of those things appear to have much to do with establishing that this is what it looks like. Miho reacting physically to Kimiko's proclamations of love in one comic, and reacting physically in the next comic to what is assumed to be initializing active romance patterns.

Yet there are a lot of indications of and times that Piro is concerned, thinking of, remembering the past. Holding onto what was. We could even suggest a primary point of a main story is others working to get Piro to let go of this (apparently largely imaginary) past. Perhaps he is "in love" with the good memories, or even what he thought was there. Yet it seems sometimes fairly clear that if he was in love with "Miho", it wasn't the actual real her, but a projection, a notion, an idea. Some have rhetorically asked if these things are any different or have said they are the same, but even if that's essentially true most of the time, they're not always exactly. There's still some difference in what's happening and what is remembered, the first can be uncomfortable and awkward, and the second can be almost anything somebody wants it to be. There is the doubt in what his conscience (figurative or literal) brings up about it, the decision to go with what is happening rather than what happened; some difference.

Even the most rabid of fanatics in the audience knows somewhere inside that they are suspending some amount of disbelief, that they are convincing themselves there's real in the portrayal they can relate to, that at some point the rush goes away. We can see the wounded react to Yuki not matching their expectations, (Unless we're suggesting the participants are insane and can't tell fantasy from reality, and fully believe at all times the actors and actresses are the characters.) Although there is an exception, in that The Horde wasn't in control over their own actions, but then again once they get there they are no longer reasoning or the performers, and that doesn't seem to be the case with our primary participants.

As is likely fairly evident, my viewpoint is that Miho's behaviors can't be trusted on the surface blindly. Because of what she supposedly is, the things we don't know about her, and what we've seen of her behaviors actual and perceived since comic 99. I don't know if that lack of trust is warranted, if the 'wait and see, be neutral, don't believe it just because' attitude is the correct one. It's certainly possible what seems might be true is true. It's not considered either an absolute lie or an absolute truth, there is uncertainty. Is the spectacle deliberate? Is the perturbation unfeigned? Yet it is clear that not everyone shares a doubting sort of outlook on Miho's perceived behaviors, past or current.

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