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[1516] A New Story

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S1arburst
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Re: [1516] A New Story

Post by S1arburst » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:42 pm

iffy wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:05 pm
Miho. (At Megagamers ostensibly to confront Piro, interacts with Yuki Piro Ping Erika & otaku.) The other, between the 'diner rescue' and the CoE, with Dom Kimiko & Piro on phone. The examples of what she's doing often includes either Piro or Largo (even if only indirectly) but not always, the only constants are Miho and the meta. Miho in some role for some participant, it would be more surprising if she trivialized suspected danger, had no reactions at all. Was not at least somewhat believable to someone in what was going on at the time. Playing multiple roles for multiple people's expectations and then their reactions individual and or group. So then, seeming nervous at appropriate times about the ninja she's interacting with probably should be expected. Regardless of how really real or not it is, or so we've heard tell about this Tohya person.
Okay, I think you're saying that since Miho is always playing parts, or being forced to fit into expectations, just because she looks nervous it might not mean anything. I agree that as an analogue it's clear that she has certain things forced on her, like dying and unwanted stories, but I like to imagine that she usually has control over what she she thinks and does, within whatever the undescribed limits are. Especially right now that she's on the sidelines.

For whatever reason, it's true that she's historically inconsistent and unreliable though.
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iffy
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Re: [1516] A New Story

Post by iffy » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:47 pm

S1arburst wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:30 pm
Regardless, I'm not quite sure that Yuki catching Miho was the first time she'd moved fast, which I think was part of what iffy was talking about? Maybe? Or maybe not.
I don't think I was talking about that. Yuki is pretty clearly MG-speeding it back and forth from dinner to phone. But as to what's going on in 1193 it wasn't apparent to me at the time somebody had put something on the chair in 1193. Even the "conversation" in 1195 isn't too apparent with Yuki glaring at her brother then noticing her mom looking at her, it's not obvious, it's nuanced. (it's not like Meimi wanted anyone else to know what was going on or that she knew about it I suppose)

Later at the bath house when Miho catches Yuki in 1332, well we have already seen that from Miho before a few times. With Ed in 927 & 929, and when she gets out of the diner with Kimiko 1000/1001, and perhaps later if she got out of a killball blast again between 1123/1124. I think the only time anyone's caught Miho was The Horde in 1387. Although she's not normally trying to get away from anything is she.

As far as speed, think the first time Yuki is "shown" to be MG-fast is when she yoinks the zilla in 1108 But maybe another time before that even, Yuki was so extra fast even that everyone missed it !!!

S1arburst wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:42 pm
Okay, I think you're saying that since Miho is always playing parts, or being forced to fit into expectations, just because she looks nervous it might not mean anything.
Yes. That I wouldn't say it means nothing, or everything, just it's not clear how much we can trust it. Fitting the circumstances might not mean anything then, as in giving us information about the actual complete honest reality in some objective sense.

Mostly we have subjective perspective going on for the observer(s) even when some have some insight and give out some truth to various extent. Like the three insiders perhaps. What Ed says isn't apparently much use but some of what he finds out and does can be, while Dom isn't really helpful either way (except that he appears incorrect about a lot) and Ibara seems to give information that matches most of what else has been said or done by more reliable sources but clearly has his own blinders and focuses.

Either way, from what we've heard and seem to have seen, she is 'always real'. If that's true then how much importance is there to apply to when she seems like what she's supposed to be. I don't know but seems like not too much.

I think one of the few examples in story of doubt is circa 781, but then again Yuki is not fully convinced the entire time, and nobody is listening to her anyway. But even still, doubt doesn't necessarily matter, if the story plot situation environment going on at the time requires doubt or something like it from one or more participants or outsiders. Things then might have required Yuki to be in that frame of mind, rather than it being a fail or miss. Even if not, alternatives might be perhaps Yuki wasn't part of that story so it didn't affect her. Maybe there's something with Yuki's past with Miho, or Miho's past with Meimi and apparently Masamichi, or some MG thing. There are plenty of ways to explain (guess at) these things of course, we just have to imagine them. If we're not going with the one where Miho is the real thing. Story source. Analogue. Failsafe.
I agree that as an analogue it's clear that she has certain things forced on her, like dying and unwanted stories, but I like to imagine that she usually has control over what she she thinks and does, within whatever the undescribed limits are.
Well she does at times say they're forced and unwanted, acts like it at times as well. I almost even believe it!

As far as control, I've often wondered if she has no control, some control or full control. Does she get pulled into her own stories, fully immersed? Does she retain some way to manage them while it's going on? Is that all a lie in the first place?

One idea was that she has control over what gets kicked off, but not over how it unfolds particularly. Such as knowing Erika told off Largo and he didn't take it well, she calls Piro and tells him to do a friend check, in the situation of getting Piro and Ping over to the CoE, where Ping has already been given the idea to play with Piro. Maybe the timing of a miffed Piro exiting and finding Miho with Largo, or even the earlier reaction from Largo, wasn't planned, and maybe neither was how Ping takes it. Yet and still it appears the next day at Megagamers Miho uses how it turned out to her advantage. How much was just how it worked out and got rolled with? Maybe we can liken it to Ikebukuro when in 1100 she calls off the Undead Rangers Tactical Strike Force, or how they greet her later. Maybe liken it to whatever she's thinking about why in 1121/1122. Or when she apparently pushes Yuki until she gets taken to the CoE in 1257 that she complains about in 1276. Or recently when she has apparently just about no control over anything yet still things seem moving somewhere aligned.

Mostly we have no idea how much control, at least so far, in learning the answer from story.
Especially right now that she's on the sidelines.
Unless she isn't..... lol

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darrin
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Re: [1516] A New Story

Post by darrin » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:17 pm

S1arburst wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:30 pm
NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:19 pm
Meimi is the one who snuck some food on the chair while Yuki was dashing back and forth [...]
I don’t really understand how so many readers continue to misinterpret this.
I'm not very good at subtle byplay :P When Yuki squishes on the food, Yuuji's the only other person in the panel. It didn't occur to me that might be something her mom would do!
Don't sell yourself too short too soon. Not sure if you were around for, or have ever read, the discussion threads for the relevant strips, but if they're not particularly fresh in mind I would urge you to go take a look. The issue's not nearly as cut or dry as the above post would imply, and strong arguments were made that no, Meimi certainly wouldn't pull a sibling-style prank on her own daughter like that. Since I was also on the "it's Yuuji" side, calling my, er, "co-arguers"? arguments "strong" may come across as biased; but what I'm actually suggesting you do is go through all the arguments there yourself and evaluate their relative strengths and weaknesses to your own satisfaction. (I really hate to risk opening a can of worms here, but for my part I don't really understand how so many readers can look at Yuuji's mug in the last panel of 1193 and not immediately think "holy shit what a bastard." :lol:)

The larger issue is that it's not worth expending too much effort on the argument because it's never going to be resolvable. I think I said at least once on the new forums (? maybe when it was still being claimed that Yuki's appearance this chapter was the start of a "flashback"? not important), that Fred never goes back. What you see in a given scene is pretty much all you're ever gonna get. I remember at one point, two or three years into my activity in the old forums, realizing one day that all the times I had looked most like an idiot basically fell into a single category, where I was certain that Everthing Will Be Made Perfectly Clear when such-and-such character eventually comes out and says, "oh btw, back when I said/did X, I definitely meant/did X sub Y, and not X sub Z." Nope. Not gonna happen. Yuki is never going to confront Yuuji|Meimi and demand an apology for, or at least explanation of, his|her gunking of Yuki's skirt. I won't say never but I am really really sure the event won't even be referred to obliquely.

So if you're convinced after careful examination that it was Meimi, then, yeah, that's who Meimi is in the comic for you, and yup, she did it. If you think it's Yuuji, then it's Yuuji. And so many readers on the other side will "continue to misinterpret this" because your excellent arguments regarding the MegaTokyo you are reading just don't apply to the MegaTokyo they are reading. One of the Big Deals from the very beginning was how important the "multiple perceptions" thing was supposed to be, and of course the aspect of that most strongly latched onto among the fans was "Piro-vision versus Largo-vision" and so forth. But over the years I've come to think the more important aspect of that is the readers' various perceptions. Fred isn't writing "a" webcomic about MegaTokyo, he's writing 2^n of them, where n is, well, not _quite_ the product of the number of fans and the number of "controversial" issues, certainly there are factions, usually only two or three on any given issue, but n is a lot bigger than 0 or 1 that's for sure.

A cynical person would start nattering about "bad / loose writing" or whatever. I find that unconvincing because it's done far too consistently and far too deliberately to chalk it up to that (or even to "accidental good writing" so to speak). If someone never hits the bullseye at the center of the target, you might not expect them to earn a lot of points from the "judges", but if they are always hitting dead center of the "0" in the 50 out on the edge of the target, I think you're making a big assumption if you decline to call them a good shot. (What's that Doctor Who quote, "That was either a very good shot or a very bad one; either way, I'm not moving a muscle"? :D)
Last edited by darrin on Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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iffy
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Re: [1516] A New Story

Post by iffy » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:22 pm

The many unanswered perceptional matters that don't have answers, just reader perception. Exactly so, and also yes there's rarely if ever a return to explain anything. Even when sometimes something in the past gets used later, such as the CoE pass from 113 in 1231, there is often no way to really know if that was something already planned or just happened to fit.

There are things that are somewhat clearer, such as, unless it is or becomes important to the story, who set Piro's bail low or why they did it will likely never be known. Same with things with more data to them, such as who placed the bail in the cell. No matter how much it seems certain Junpei 'must have left it' (because it's origami that looks like a zilla) it will likely never be confirmed if that's true. If it was Meimi (because of the no ninja signs) or somebody else really fast like Miho, or if just spontaneously teleported itself in, or if Piro only imagined it. Which in another separate sort of thing, it's pretty apparent Junpei on an actual RAZ broke Largo out, given everyone involved, knowing there are actually zilla, and having seen it and Junpei and Largo in the background on it. Probably.

Some things are a little more certain than others too. Not in that way I messed up Yuki's arrival at hospital "likely" being a flashback. Being unclear they were extremely tentative guesses, made based upon what we readers could see - even though we couldn't see nearly enough. It's a good lesson of what not to do. At a time when things are still happening, there often aren't enough clues or data. When you just go with what you have because it's all there is, compelling case falls apart when one thing shows it's not true at all. There, Yuki just happened to be in an area where she and we couldn't notice the damage that had already been done. Once there was more resolution to the picture we could easily see it was no flashback at all. The earlier guesses of likelihood, being based upon incomplete misleading information, were unsurprisingly quite incorrect. Perception was faulty and was reshaped by context. Lessons are learned. Sometimes there is an answer but it has to be waited for.

In the case of the mystery of Yuki's chair, it is also certainly true there is no answer, no confirmation, no truth to uncover. It's done over sealed and set in stone without any confirmation or proof. However, there is some context. Not that everyone can take the same things from it, and it doesn't prove anything. But context none the less.

In 1193, we have the four panels on the right. Yuuji appears in the third one to look at the flames or something, although he could be noticing something about Yuki. It appears in the fourth one he's looking towards Erika, still it could be he's looking away from his handiwork. Yet as a whole, the four panels together overall appear to suggest he is watching the goings on, and perhaps oblivious to Yuki zapping in and out. But is he oblivious? We can't know if he has 'see MG moving' powers. So it is exactly so a perceptual matter, if one believes he has some way to notice her, some ability to while she's gone put something on her chair, or not. After all, he does have his two hands not showing in the third, fwooshh. The context here though is that Yuuji isn't known to have either the ability to see MG moving or be able to while they're not there place something where they were sitting quickly enough. Yet Meimi does have such abilities, or maybe it's better said the only person other than Yuki there that is an MG is Meimi.

So while those four panels are suggestive in a lot of ways, depending on one's perspective, there is more context in 1195. Specifically, though nuanced (in the way that nobody says anything) there is an apparently purposely and informatively drawn sequence in panels 2 3 4 5. Yuki glares at Yuuji in 2, then eyes she open looks elsewhere in 3. Yuuji in 2 3 isn't reacting at all. In 4 the elsewhere is Meimi who is looking directly at Yuki. Yuki blushes in 5. Of course, it could be that in 3 Yuki is looking at Largo and in 4 Miemi is looking blankly or at Yuuji. Perception still holds. Still, to many observers 2 3 4 5 are specific and probably about as clear as anything would be in who is interacting there, and Yuki certainly blushes. Well regardless of what somebody might think about who did what, this sequence should make it at least understandable why some people would think the answer is the other MG in the room is "talking" to Yuki. Why, well that's more context later.

In panel 6, Meimi finally says something, as if she's changing the subject, but it's still about Yuki, perhaps to draw her into the conversation (sort of) now that apparently a 'stop going MG-speed to the other room' correction has been carried out. Not a prank. Not even as a sort of spanking. But as is more fitting to the situation, a 'hey you pay attention to the situation here' or perhaps a 'let me help I'm going to do something'. Because panels 6 and on appear to be a way for Meimi to let Largo know Yuki needs a more impressive computing device and a distraction to get out of the house. The make Yuki pay attention and participate notification that nobody else would get or know about. Or at least not Masamichi, Yuuji and Erika. Or apparently us either. Who knows, perhaps Meimi did a bit of speed herself and knows of the content of those texts in 1193, which is why at the end she does something about it? Even if Yuki doesn't get it at first, even if Yuki doesn't know Meimi is doing it, or indeed even if Meimi isn't doing it on purpose exactly. But it certainly seems in 1196 Yuki is paying attention, to what might have been a set up for Largo to do and Yuki to pay attention to. Can't get things moving along if Yuki isn't seeing what Largo is doing and no reason to get Largo doing it if Yuki isn't going to see it. Or at least it seems Meimi might be sneaky like that, and more in on what's going on in the background than she lets on outwardly.

Beside the first part of 1195 then, in the further context of what happens later on in 1195, and in 1196 and after, it might make even more sense in the whole to perceive the entirety one way versus another way. Even though we'll never know for sure. Such as it's possible Yuuji can see the MG behavior and is fast himself as well, and Meimi just later took advantage of it. Or that it was just how it turned out and Meimi did nothing to move along the operation to the CoE for Yuki and Largo and Erika. Etc etc. Still, 1193 to 1196 has a lot of context to it, at least after the fact, going back and assembling it all, putting it together.

Which is again just more example of the ^n stories going on here so masterfully, regardless if there is no single obvious answer to anything. Not that there will always be or needs to be one.

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darrin
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Re: [1516] A New Story

Post by darrin » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:27 pm

iffy wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:22 pm
Because panels 6 and on appear to be a way for Meimi to let Largo know Yuki needs a more impressive computing device and a distraction to get out of the house.
Oh my, that is... hmm... no, I honestly don't think I ever consciously made the connection that it was Meimi feeding the idea to Largo that Yuki needed his peculiar brand of assistance...

<goes back to read the entire 1195 discussion thread from start to finish>
Looks like Starry-Eyed on pg. 4 did bring up the possibility of a desired conversation, without speculating as to motive for said conversation:
Starry-Eyed wrote: I rather suspect [Meimi]'s about to engineer a conversation between Yuki and Largo, and wants her daughter paying attention.
But further discussion in the thread totally failed to pursue this particular angle; a bit of noise was made that Meimi was trying to "guilt-trip" Largo for being partially responsible for Zom-Zilla's condition in the first place, but of course that speculation also failed to map to what went on in the actual comic.

So, iffy, that is a remarkably insightful point to be made on a nine-year-old strip (and ensuing discussion thread). Nicely done.
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