Re:  "Hard to Explain"
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:38 pm
Please don't quote this mess...I wouldn't have double quoted, but I thought that Cidjen's commentary was important.
I suspect this fluidity within the Story is part of it's powers, used to enhance the effectiveness of it on different people, or as protective camo for both Miho and the Story itself. Or both.iffy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:45 pmUnless it's the other way around, or something entirely different.
Also exactly so, that's it. Yet whichever way we each see it, it appears it could be a lot of things. Which of them it is, difficult given that nobody much seems to actually know what she is or how she got that way. Has always been that way, isn't actually like that at all. Whatever else about the CoE people and what they think and how they put it, they know this isn't just some ordinary human that can be understood easily if at all.
What she is and wants, or isn't and doesn't want, might be easier to determine if she was more consistent. Told the same story to everyone, and then her actions matched that story. Yet we seem to get various stories, that appear to shift and slide depending on who she's interacting with when. What are the underlying truths of the direction and intensity, so far that only seems to apply to a given person's perspective, subjectivity and opinion.
You're approaching philosophy here; is Miho doomed to fail? Is is preordained, just because that's how it's always happened? What if the way forward for her it to find someone who can play with her to the good ending? And if that requires someone manipulating the metastory to allow for or create a good ending, isn't that kind of the ultimate expression of what Miho was trying to do in Endgames?iffy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:45 pmSomething like that sort of idea. Still, he seems he might be impressed, competitive or not, if he agreed with the premise. Which of course if Ping is artificially sort of creating the same experience, why not. Like with the other two, what he thinks is to him, based upon what he knows and isn't aware he doesn't know. Perhaps Ibara's opinion is more aligned with reality, but since it's Miho, doomed to fail anyway?No you're quite all right here, it's only expected from him to be dismissive about competitive product... If we think of it that way.
...maybe. The Ninja, as a group, seem resistant to manipulation. They may be a control mechanism, or a wildcard, or both.
Agreed. We've no idea what our little Ninjagrrl is up to. Only that's she's perceptive, and quick.iffy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:45 pmOh, really we don't have an answer as to her motivations or goals do we? Not the original or what if anything they may have been corrupted to be. That's like asking if she is immune to or countering Miho's powers, or if powers have no bearing upon the situation whether she is or isn't susceptible. But yes, just because it seems nobody much has been able to not be affected, doesn't mean nobody can resist or ignore them.But would it not mean she would want to hide their younger family members 'mistake' ... She would have executed Miho already if that was the case, to prevent damage to the family honor
I still think Dom knows way more than he's letting on.iffy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:45 pmSure, he's focused on his own deal, but that doesn't mean the essence of it isn't true anyway. At some point, fans will be disappointed even angry when things happen, especially with how so often fans are divided in what they want or expect. Although if the goal is emotion, anything strong might make the actual way it turns out not too important. Another in-story example was Erika telling everyone off, even then she still had her adherents. (Although if Miho hadn't become involved, the outcome may have been very different.)Maybe so. But Dom seems to have quite a 'helicopter' view.
Again though, given the RL story of what was said back then and after, in forum and out, about hating characters. It appears something that just got said. There may or may not be much to read into or use to determine more. Especially given how things have changed since, however it turns out actually being.
Miho's monologue here is vitally important, but I don't think we know yet exactly what or who she's referring to. Is she talking about Piro and Largo? If so, why not refer to them by name? Or is this about someone else, at least in part? The way she's couching the lines, avoiding naming names, just shouts of hiddin meanings. What was gained by walking into the killball's fields of fire? There's significance in this comic that we're not seeing yet.iffy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:45 pmIt wasn't necessarily she no longer wanted to him to fail, but for him to have the same outcome as the other had. She wonders if she herself has changed, but doesn't say if she has or not, or how. If the details are unimportant, maybe even to her it doesn't matter what they are as long as the story is compelling. Then the big thing, is she thinking he won't win and won't lose, no matter what she does? Or if that will be the result only if she doesn't take action. Or if that is what she's going to work towards. Whichever it is, has she continued on that path, or changed again due to something she's decided. Because things have all gone random and are just working out that way.Before being killballed, Miho monologues about wanting to see Piro fail in this game, and that her objective has changed, she no longer wants him to fail. Just him not winning, will be enough for her to achieve her victory.
We might imagine her plan was to use ending the story with Ed to retreat to the ASF, and let all the ongoing stories continue out on their own. She had let Ed end that story, and that was it. Over. That it wasn't only her going to the ASF to wait. Await events to get Junko make Ping post, or put the laptop into Yuki's hands, or get Piro to decide it was time to let go. Is one of the potential scenarios her barely winning, sort of, in some kind of tie situation. Or was she not supposed to be involved at all, did none of what she was thinking in 1121/1122 ever matter.
If for no other reason than if Fred introduces any more levels to the story people's heads are going to explode trying to track it all.iffy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:45 pmMiho appears the entire time to be quite aware of Yuki's location and activities, and uses Yuki to provide a path to the CoE without Miho herself suggesting it. (This goes back all the way to Miho taking credit/blame for Yuki's latent MG skillz and yoinking things, the power line walk, arguing at Megagamers; the 'interacting with the Sonodas' story if you will.) If this is a bunch of people running a computer sim and switching control of the game direction, that might fit. At this point though, perhaps it's best to treat this as things actually happening inside MT, even if some of those things are not actual people somehow.Yuki's activity may be a deliberate action by another player (multiboxing on same console as Kimi and Miho?) to prevent that from happening?
You might have something here. Maybe Seraphim is acting less inhibited here because of the prior bath scene. It would be useful to have a conscience limit it's personal expression to areas that their person is familiar or comfortable with. Certainly the idea of her lounging around in a robe before the bath scene would be hard to imagine. And now she's just sorry she can't tease Asmodeus!iffy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:45 pmThis is sort of the second time she's visited him to discuss things one on one, and this time is pretty much quite unlike the conversation starting in 898. Seemingly.But why would his conscience be so smug about it ?
The personification of his subconscious might be glad it was correct, and his conscious as him argues with it that it wasn't quite so correct at all. Figuratively. After all, this conscience seems a bit different than it used to be, so perhaps it's just reflections of him. Maybe at the bath house, he broke it. Literally.
Maybe the CEA agents are another control mechanism.iffy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:45 pmSeemed the goal was making sure her assigned charge didn't do bad things, the entire angel on your shoulder but more more proactive and even out in the world small or big interacting with him. Maybe part of that depends on to what extent there is a CEA with little angels and devils and hamsters out and about in Megatokyo interacting with the protagonists.Wasn't the objective to teach him how to deal with conflicting emotions autonomously, without retreating from the choice?
Does a conscience ever shut up, even after you've done the deed?iffy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:45 pmWe could argue no decision like this is ever fully made. Still a bit of malware hanging around interjecting itself. 'You've chosen, you've forgotten, good for you, real people.....' It's not all that different if it is different at all, and I've not totally forgotten....' Perhaps some of this will be revisited, or maybe that's just how things work.Now he's made one, he's going to feel the consequences of it, not her. So maybe he's dismissed and left his conscience behind, but she's happy about it, because her objectives are about to be completed.
That raises the question: If this is a game, who here is a player? How far down the rabbit hole can you go? If MT is a game, then it's likely to be a reflection of Endgames, and virtually everyone is a player - but not everyone is always playing their character. I hope this isn't the case, but it's an interesting concept. If it is, and everyone EXCEPT Miho is a player, that would explain much.Roamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:58 amTrue. Mostly it seems like with Ed, fearless psycho and all, casually looking up who he's dealing with on his datapad, unable to deal with finding out what she is, and then spends the rest of his time (up until he thinks he's gotten rid of her) getting rid of her when it seems initially pretty clear he can do nothing to her even if she doesn't stop him.Oh, probably not. But I was thinking, it might partially mitigate them if you knew what was behind them. Possibly it might let you manipulate the power yourself to some degree, or - more safely - manipulate those beings who have the power.
It's quite possible none of Ed, Dom or Ibara are good examples of anything, it might be they are the only people like that. However, it does seem to some extent that whatever anyone "knows" about Miho doesn't help them much, not just those three. One of the things we've pointed out is her failures, and if they actually are. At the CoE during the radio show, she apparently is upset with Largo, the put down by Erika and really hammered Largo, about his casual dismissal of what happened in Endgames. Beating him by killing him, the subtext of rivalry over her and/or her character, all that. So she tries to seduce him. Or does she set up a situation that will upset Piro? Either way, Ping is drawn further towards Miho. And Piro's beat-down might only set up the next day at Megagamers. Which includes mending mistaken ideas of Erika and Masamichi, and thus sets up some other things for later. Of course, maybe it all just happened. Maybe no Analogue powers impacted anything. Also maybe though that is what she is and does, as has been said. (Likely, something is true, after all.)
Might any of these people pulled into the story, somewhat to fully, have become able to do otherwise? If Miho was manipulating a number of people and situations, and if they knew of it. Sadly, we don't know those things, including what might have been planned and was intended. Still, if there's a story-creation thing going on, it appears to impact everyone. That includes ASF monitoring police and bail-setting judges, various ninja, and many of her adherents. Or maybe that example is better shown with Komugiko at the bath house. She knows what Miho has done, but only after the fact, thinks Piro couldn't have gone. But used Mugi to divert and escape; as was said, she's always doing that to mom. Junko too yes, maybe even in a way Piro and Largo. Everyone. Too, for somebody nobody knows anything about allegedly, Miho has a lot of fans, even if not all of them are supposed to be there and aren't the correct kind.
She's got everyone right where the game wants her.
The increasing importance of Endgames, and the games where Miho is one of the choices, are one of the main reasons why I'm thinking of her as a pawn of her power. Megatokyo seems to exist as a place, an experience, and a nexus of events. And possibly as a story itself. Or not.Roamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:58 amShe might know them all better singly and as a group than they know themselves.It's amazing she's hung on to as much humanity as she has, given the limited view of people she gets.
Although one thing that doesn't seem much resolvable is that she's supposed to be represented somewhat somehow in fiction, made more compelling when those portray aspects of her inject and intertwine themselves more fully. Yet from what we've seen of Miho, it hasn't been representations, it's been out in the MT world with people. Even during the Endgames thing there was a physical component at least somewhat.
It's not clear which is the actual place Miho usually operates, fiction, outside, or both those places and more. If things happen to make even the not real become real, what's the difference though? Something like as Kimiko so eloquently put it 1003. Which sort of Ibara mentions 1240, Ed's reaction 819. Then a number of other things all over the place, her or otherwise, including 705 and 1278.
Endgames, the Megatokyo Minigame!Roamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:58 amYes, in Endgames to find people who might be at least somewhat immune to her powers. Or maybe the other way around. If there's a reason other than just recuperating, or waiting for another story, or because she wanted to grief some mmo players, it could be looking for help.--Why she found Endgames so compelling - She was using it to try and become someone with more humanity - a whole person again.
Possibly, and if so, it's quite likely completely subconscious on her part. There's a scary idea for you.Roamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:58 amTrue, it isn't so clear that what she did was an actual hack, rather than being able to control the servers and software the same way she does people. Even machines bow to her will.--How she was able to manipulate the hidden stats - If the hidden stats are reflections of the player's stats, after two centuries, every mannerism would give them away. She couldn't help but see and manipulate them.
The very way it ended up going is why I'm convinced it was the habits of manipulation that drove her to it. If she'd been planning to betray them all along they'd have had no chance at all. (Sudden thought) What if the betrayal was her endgames character, acting as her hidden stats demanded, while Miho herself wasn't playing? If the hidden stats are based on how you've acted as a person outside endgames, then they would reflect her normal demeanor - not the person she was playing within the Endgames universe. The person she was trying to become.Roamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:58 amIf anyone would know such things, somebody who is fifty or two hundred or three billion years old should. Might not need any practice. It could have been more about Piro and Largo's behavior out of game, if it wasn't just how that story happened to go. She could also have been setting up what's happening now on the off chance they ever made there way to where she was. Who's to say? It's still not a given the betrayal went exactly like it was supposed to have been, or that she only knows how to do that sort of thing.--Why she betrayed them in the game. Treachery, manipulation, and death have been all she's known of the world for two centuries. Of course they're how she behaved eventually - habits of that long are hard to break. More practice is needed.
If we're going with the above ideas, then clearly Mugi and Kenji are players. Still worshippers, but capable of some degree of self-determination. And Waltah? The ever-faithful butler? Yeah, he's a control mechanism. Or just maybe he's the sysadmin, with root access to it all.Roamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:58 amI'm not sure how to feel about them yet. On the one hand Mugi seemed not so given to being overwhelmed (although perhaps that's because apparently she's not quite exactly fully human) and Kenji was out there chanting. On the other hand, Waltah seemed particularly attuned. Door people and bouncers and whatever else that perhaps don't know much of anything. And the crowd, or as she seemed to put it, the grieving horde.And no, the Cave of Evil doesn't give her real experience in interacting as a person. They're worshipers and they behave as such. She literally can't conceive of their being people she can interact with normally.