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[1514] "Hard to Explain"

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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by cidjen » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:37 pm

Could it be likely that having learned Miho's story, Ninjagrrrl decided to not kill Miho after all because it would put Junpei in bad light? She could have also done it much earlier but figured he didn't do it for some reason. She did not want to make him lose face and/or honor for not taking the opportunity to execute on the contract; after all he had the first contact and did not take the shot, so NG maybe wants to know why.
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by Rapierman » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:20 pm

....and so, Ninja-Grrl proves exactly what I had suspected: She's a valley-girl ditz, through and through. :P
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by Liminaut » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:03 am

I wonder if Miho shivering is because of Kimiko shivering as she is washing her hair in cold water. It makes one wonder what Miho would have experienced if Kimiko had kept playing Miho.

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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by Roamer » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:19 am

paarfi wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:48 pm
On one level, this is another chance for Fred to explain the Miho problem to us again. I think most of us here on the forum get it, but it bears repeating for a lot of other fans who don't keep us as well.

But I think it's interesting that Ninjagrrl gets it so easily. This might be a first for Miho, and she seems genuinely surprised. Piro understands, but he gets the deeper truth without really understanding the details. The people involved with Stability and the ASF understand the details, but they don't really care about the affect on Miho. Mugi, Kenji, and the CoE crowd understand the details and care, but are mostly cheerleaders for her Story and hide behind the "it can't be helped". Ninjagrrl here might be the first person to learn about the Miho problem, really understand, care about it, and consider doing something to help (or at least not do something to hurt).

I think Miho may have made herself a real ally here. A hilarious and powerful ally too, which is awesome.
If this really is Ninja Grandma, then it's possible she's been around long enough to see how beings like Miho operate. It would be a huge edge for a Ninja to have knowledge of that sort, and it may very well be why she got the contract. This doesn't mean she can't feel sympathy for Miho, but it's not likely to stop a pro from finishing her contract. Unless she's got another reason to not fulfill it...a favorite grandson prone to making rash promises, maybe.

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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by cidjen » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:07 am

Liminaut wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:03 am
I wonder if Miho shivering is because of Kimiko shivering as she is washing her hair in cold water. It makes one wonder what Miho would have experienced if Kimiko had kept playing Miho.
See @Ninjadefenestrator post on the previous page.... my thoughts are similar too; although there isn't much to confirm this; Miho faints first at the school, just as Kimiko thought she wasn't getting the VA for Kotone job (236 - 240 and surrounds); Then Miho has the spell of being weak as Piro visits Kimiko at Anna Millers (though arguably this is due to the same 'rejection reaction' after the Beer Garden). But then, Miho is fine while the Anna Miller Train Disaster happens... so it'll be one exception that gets the theory void. So not too much to hold on. As it doesn't happen again after Miho's 'killballed' and 'goes into hiding'. Though that could be the effect of Kimiko actually landing that job. But then Miho's heart fails when Kimiko hears how Piro exclaims towards Miho when he comes back to the flat, after the school collapse...

Maybe Miho's health is more linked to Piro's own emotions... but more in subtle ways... after all, the fainting spells at the start of the comic sort-of correspond with Piro feeling pathetic too.

I would have said Miho's shivering, as the link between Piro and her is deassociated, thanks to Kimiko.

Gotta think about it some more ;)
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by eomdal » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:29 am

cidjen wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:07 am

Maybe Miho's health is more linked to Piro's own emotions... but more in subtle ways... after all, the fainting spells at the start of the comic sort-of correspond with Piro feeling pathetic too.

I would have said Miho's shivering, as the link between Piro and her is deassociated, thanks to Kimiko.

Gotta think about it some more ;)
Good thinking, but was Fred thinking this far ahead back in the Beer Garden/Anna Millers days? I get the impression that he didn't settle on Piro and Miho's relationship until much later.
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by paarfi » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:13 am

eomdal wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:29 am
was Fred thinking this far ahead back in the Beer Garden/Anna Millers days?
He wasn't. But Fred is great at making old comics work with new story changes, so I wouldn't discount it on that basis.

On the other hand, I don't think tying Miho's health directly to Piro makes much sense. Miho's fainting spells are part of her Story as a tragic dying girl. It goes all the way back to her heart problems in her origin story [1404]. People expect a tragic dying girl to have foreboding fainting spells first, so that's what the Story gives them.

I also think some of them might be related to Miho trying to buck the Story. When she was falling for Piro online, she had days where she didn't log into Endgames and m0h's health sometimes reflected this [1211]. M0h called it "loss of will", where I think the will is both Miho's will driving the actions of m0h, but also the Story's will driving the actions of Miho. It's a nice parallel that way.
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by SteelBlaidd » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:30 am

NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:57 pm
That’s not the first time Miho’s gotten goosed since Kimiko started acting as her.

Even if Kimiko was back to herself by the time she and Piro started getting busy in the shower, she was still acting while they made out in the car. Are they the ones doing this to Miho? Because...shit, that’s not fair at all.
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by Yl33 D4 N00b » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:40 am

Where does the straw go? Does she have a lttle slit in her mask, or something? :roll:
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by paarfi » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:53 am

Yl33 D4 N00b wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:40 am
Where does the straw go? Does she have a lttle slit in her mask, or something? :roll:
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by cidjen » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:42 pm

paarfi wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:13 am
Fred is great at making old comics work with new story changes,
I knew it, there was another something more I like MT for :)

Seriously though it's a rare skill, there are so many stories out there that are not this well thought out, and they are usually managed by teams of people...
paarfi wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:13 am
I don't think tying Miho's health directly to Piro makes much sense
Hey I know, there goes the theory...
Yl33 D4 N00b wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:40 am
Where does the straw go?
She may be subliminally taking it off and taking sips when no one is looking, camera included. She's FAST you know :)
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by iffy » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:58 pm

The active listening, "Existing more as a character than a real person."

If Miho has been some mystic amalgamation of characters and not really here, that might be what we've been seeing all along. Although the explanation of Analogue has seemed more that other stories, and then the characters in them, all derive from some primordial extraction of the essence of storytelling she exemplifies. There is no clear path back or any one to one correlation though. Which such things SEVS are meant to in a way synthesize, from gathering back other portrayals of characters into new random stories of what they do. Hah, what if Miho is just explaining Ping to this ninja. :sneaky:

Well, whichever directions the truth are (a sort of source that stories/characters are roughly from, characters that mimic other characters but doesn't itself exist, or something else). If what is being reflected in panel 5 is a good reflection of what Miho told her, we can only guess because we don't know what Miho said before we got there.

Which likewise hampers our view into if this is just more fiction that explains little and just demonstrates more of Miho being whatever it is she is and doing whatever it is she does.


paarfi wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:48 pm
On one level, this is another chance for Fred to explain the Miho problem to us again.
Or simply another example of Miho changing the background details and her behavior to match the role, plot, situation she's now in.
But I think it's interesting that Ninjagrrl gets it so easily.
Reminiscent of a fan of your fans and hacked mercilessly short where Masamichi gets responses that are rather non specific but still match his perception and understanding of what he thinks he knows. (Piro tries this at the portfolio meeting at the apartment as well, but he seems to have insufficient godlike powers to actually get anywhere near it actually working on either the subject of the discussion Kimiko or the spying Yuki.)
This might be a first for Miho, and she seems genuinely surprised.
Lots of things over time Miho seems to be. But of course we've seen and discussed it over and over already a lot. So really the question is probably not if it's genuine or not, we might say what's the difference with Miho. Rather the question would be more like how much this ninja is susceptible to being influenced by the real thing.
Is it actual honest truth in details and emotions, or powerful story powers and perceptions? If this now is anything like such as ninja experiencing a powerful finishing move, waitress as extreme empath, emotionless psychopath being terrorized, super otaku now thoughtful, or ultra high level (ex-)Idol turned to teacher's aide exposing some note-passing students, then it doesn't matter which because it's the same thing.
I think Miho may have made herself a real ally here. A hilarious and powerful ally too, which is awesome.
Way cool.
Which having seen Miho operate the past few weeks, is about the norm apparently. (Although sometimes, as is the case with Yuki, she seems to be trying to drive them away more than anything else; yet they keep on "assisting" Miho.)


Liminaut wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:03 am
I wonder if Miho shivering is because of Kimiko shivering as she is washing her hair in cold water.
I was wondering the same thing. She stops telling her tale and ninjagurl believes she's creeped out from telling it so stops in the middle. My past ideas of the comic rolling back time and looking at somebody else earlier were miserable failures though, so I'm going to go with Kimiko has already finished washing the hair with cold water perhaps. And this shudder is only part of the truth we didn't hear, part of the illusion being woven, and not from externals.

Does the shudder fit on its own in spite of anything else? Even though Miho has torn out of bed, destroyed part of hospital, beat up a bunch of tough guys, and way damaged a ninja, she is still recovering from having a pacemaker put in a few hours ago. Plus if the current role is 'terrible at portraying ninja pouring out true story to the deadly assassin who takes pity on her terrible endless plight' the horrid memories and shuddering would fit right in, perhaps even garner some sympathy if not a reversal in the murderplans. Seems to fit a shudder on its own, but indeed yes that's only guesswork from perception.

Which still makes me wonder if the ninja girl knows this is part of the Analogue thing, is immune to it or has counter-measures, and is just playing back with it by pretending to be taken in by it. Surprise still going to collect the bounty, to continue seeing how much Miho does want to or not want to do this dying that has to be but hasn't happened. If the ninja for herself wants to ascertain to what extent it's all just an image to be perceived. That leads to the same question though really. Is this one as susceptible as every other one has been so far to the fiction that becomes more real than real.


Roamer wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:19 am
.... it's possible she's been around long enough to see how beings like Miho operate. It would be a huge edge for a Ninja to have knowledge of that sort ....
If the first is true, it might be that the knowledge isn't enough to either avoid or counter the effects, in the same ways it hasn't seemed to have helped anyone else not get dragged into what appears to be the stories springing up around it.


Yl33 D4 N00b wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:40 am
Where does the straw go? Does she have a lttle slit in her mask, or something? :roll:
They explained all that in another comic, one about Scottish Ninja Doctors ;) Although here in Megatokyo the mechanism could be a bit or a lot different certainly.

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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by BetaCygnus » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:10 pm

cidjen wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:18 pm
oh 6 is, well saddest of them all, as in, yeah it's real sad when this really happens...

I meant 5 to have been saddest as 'most fitting Miho's 'situation''.

:)
Come to think of it, with the "You look like someone goosed you" — that does not really sound like option 6. That sounds like something more… intimate than dying while trying to escape your situation.

As if dying isn’t an intimate thing. Yeah well…

=/

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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by cidjen » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:32 pm

iffy wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:58 pm
Hah, what if Miho is just explaining Ping to this ninja. :sneaky:
Ping is... an attempt to substitute whatever Miho actually is (a doomed attempt) (according to Ibara sr.)
iffy wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:58 pm
gathering back other portrayals of characters into new random stories of what they do.
Which is what Ping (unknowingly?) sort-of does... Ping is even described as being programmed that way, so that it's to her a 'natural' process, unconscious. Can we risk to say that If Miho does it too, then Miho does it Knowingly ?

Let's see, since Ping was built by Teh Evil (SONY) Corp. Labs.
Miho in [1402] basically says, that some kind of evil dragged her out of her Real Life TM and turned her into an 'Analogue'.

Just what kind of evil makes her be 'an ending with no end' ?

Or if believe in action and reaction in this world, as in, nothing happens without a cause, what did she do to deserve this ? Is it a punishment ?

So many questions :)
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by Ningen » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:21 pm

cidjen wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:15 pm
GreyWolfe wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:52 pm
Looks like that contract got 'reassigned'. Or else put out to general bidding.
Emergency termination order from Head Ninja...
One doesn't just walk in to a ninja compound.
I think even the most traditional of Ninja clans will have fax these days.

I'm still in the ninjagrrl=grandma camp. "Grandma will tease".
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by Yl33 D4 N00b » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:24 pm

I'd like to see an explosion at the ninja camp about the time Junpei and Yaku show up; Junpei tries to play peacemaker, while Yaku rolls her eyes. 8-)
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by Invisigoth » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:03 pm

Spunky girls, even twin tailed kitsune, are no match for the power of a feisty grandmother. Especially if said grandmother is a very senior ninja.

Yaku's only hope is that Ninja Grrl is in fact an extremely gifted young kunoichi, hopefully not a direct blood relative of her moms suitor so that Ninja Grrl doesn't have that particular lever to pull

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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by cidjen » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:36 am

Ningen wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:21 pm
cidjen wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:15 pm
GreyWolfe wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:52 pm
Looks like that contract got 'reassigned'. Or else put out to general bidding.
Emergency termination order from Head Ninja...
One doesn't just walk in to a ninja compound.
I think even the most traditional of Ninja clans will have fax these days.

I'm still in the ninjagrrl=grandma camp. "Grandma will tease".
Should have said 'one with a death warrant doesn't just walk in to a ninja compound' :)
Invisigoth wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:03 pm
hopefully not a direct blood relative of her moms suitor so that Ninja Grrl doesn't have that particular lever to pull
Ha but then the fact she didn't do it yet means she is related and younger?
If she just did it, it could put Junpei in bad light, possibly challenge his own honor, as he was in position to do it earlier but didn't... An unrelated ninja wouldn't care, since she's faster than Junpei, she'll just fight him when he challenged her for his honor.
A younger member of the same family would have had to have second thoughts. Plus family rules may prevent them from infighting.

(Granted I don't know much about ninjas really)
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by NinjaDefenestrator » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:07 am

@cidjen

Sorry, this was the specific comic I was thinking of, not anything going further back: https://megatokyo.com/strip/1461

There seems to be a pretty straightforward connection between Kimiko and Piro’s romantic interactions and Miho’s...goosing? Maybe it’s a direct jolt of the energy that keeps her character alive, only she experiences it differently now because of how her character has changed.

Ninja Grandma (still convinced that’s who she is; hopefully we’ll find out once Junpei arrives) seems to enjoy toying with Miho more than she wants to terminate her. Maybe she’s been around long enough that she’s not as much a fan of Stability as the Head Ninja and everyone else. Still, Junpei and Yaku better get there fast before Miho says something stupid and Grandma changes her mind!

As an aside: hey, TWB, has it ever occurred to you that the evil Miho you despise so much might have died in Ed’s killballz long ago, and the respawned version doesn’t deserve your undying hatred? This Miho just seems lost and scared, and now that Piro’s abandoned her for Kimiko, her secret fantasy just died without her knowing it yet.

...wait. A theory just occurred to me that should have been obvious before now.

Once Miho respawned and showed up in Piro’s apartment, all of the behavior that reflects his deepest emotions is centered around her. That culminates in the comic that I see as the core of their relationship: https://megatokyo.com/strip/1390

(Cue at least ten posts about why I’m wrong and that note doesn’t have the significance I think it does, but Fred mentioned at the time that he’d planned out that phrasing for years, so it can’t mean nothing. The alternate interpretation is that Piro simply meant that he wouldn’t let Miho die again, but honestly it could go either way and I like my version better.)

Ray Kremer mentioned a few weeks ago that Fred let slip a surprising aspect of Piro’s character that changed the way RK viewed Piro. So far, all we’ve seen of Piro suggests that he’s an overall good guy, more than a little passive, but determined to do the right thing when it comes to the people he cares about.

Well, what happens when Piro doesn’t do the right thing by someone he cares about? Two someones, actually: the girl who messed him up so much that he doesn’t understand anything anymore...and the girl he’s deliberately using as a distraction and a rebound.

The last time he saw Miho, she was screaming at him for being an idiot because he saved her. Yet another rejection of sorts, although it doesn’t seem to have changed how he feels when he sees “her” on that rubble pile. https://megatokyo.com/strip/1460 (note the present tense)

Then we have a seamless transition between Miho and Kimiko in Piro’s world. Piro sees Kimiko for who she is, but he also never stopped seeing himself as one of her fans. https://megatokyo.com/strip/1475

Piro’s not over what Miho did to him two years ago. He’s fed up with her current behavior. He’s conflicted about who he was making out with in the getaway car. And here’s Kimiko throwing herself at him. Here’s a chance for Piro to prove that he can reject Miho as much as she’s rejected him, and he’s using Kimiko to do it.

Lord, this is going to get ugly.

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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by cidjen » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:12 am

NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:07 am
There seems to be a pretty straightforward connection between Kimiko and Piro’s romantic interactions and Miho’s...goosing? Maybe it’s a direct jolt of the energy that keeps her character alive, only she experiences it differently now because of how her character has changed.
(in [1461]) Hah... yeah that would be an argument 'pro';

Maybe now that she's respawned after the killballz (after the school she didn't really respawn, Yuki carried her there) she's... changed (she feels the change right before being killballz'd too), that's why she did not faint or die at the Anna Miller's Train Disaster?
Kimiko really did put a spell on her, talking about Kotone and why Kotone deserves to be alive... seems Largo was right all along ? :)
NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:07 am
Ray Kremer mentioned a few weeks ago that Fred let slip a surprising aspect of Piro’s character that changed the way RK viewed Piro. So far, all we’ve seen of Piro suggests that he’s an overall good guy, more than a little passive, but determined to do the right thing when it comes to the people he cares about.
But then, I think @paarfi mentioned this comes up every so often (when I mentioned that I read something to the effect 'we won't like Piro when this story is done') and is more like the Artists Mind kind of thing, no one really knows what it means apart from The Artist. Not that I'm dismissing The Artist's Mind, just that it's IMO open for interpretation either way.
NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:07 am
(Cue at least ten posts about why I’m wrong and that note doesn’t have the significance I think it does, but Fred mentioned at the time that he’d planned out that phrasing for years, so it can’t mean nothing. The alternate interpretation is that Piro simply meant that he wouldn’t let Miho die again, but honestly it could go either way and I like my version better.)
I don't think you're wrong here, but in this particular situation it's ... complicated because it could mean BOTH. Piro actually did prevent Miho from dying again, eventually.
NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:07 am
The last time he saw Miho, she was screaming at him for being an idiot because he saved her. Yet another rejection of sorts, although it doesn’t seem to have changed how he feels when he sees “her” on that rubble pile. https://megatokyo.com/strip/1460 (note the present tense)
Hah, yet another Chechov Sniper Rifle... long shot but remember, 'you hide your emotions deep.... makes you a little less than honest' ? [201] ? That could be what RK meant... or what Fred let slip... ? It was staring on us all this time from above the fireplace...
NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:07 am
Piro’s not over what Miho did to him two years ago. He’s fed up with her current behavior. He’s conflicted about who he was making out with in the getaway car. And here’s Kimiko throwing herself at him.
Hah Kimi is probably not called a Zilla for nothing :)

Here’s a chance for Piro to prove that he can reject Miho as much as she’s rejected him, and he’s using Kimiko to do it.
Hmm just occured to me to think of the timeline vs concurrency of events ...
The shiver at 'I LOVE YOU' is visible, I concur.
Junpei left Miho in his room not that long ago.
Snugging in the back seat occurs not that long after Junpei starts helping Megumi.
I think now, that the shiver MIho has in this comic, is from PxK snugging in the back seat at the time.
I think we haven't seen the effect of PxK doing anything more serious yet...
Or maybe the Ninjagrrl, Junpei and Yaku will see something coming and all scramble on to the Foxhole to prevent PxK from doing THAT...?

EDIT: because it is totally expectable, as Piro commits himself to Kimi, that Miho could just start... vanishing...
NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:07 am
My name is Ninja Defenestrator, and I have terminal Story Discussion Syndrome.
Cue @iffy having a completely different view in 3...2... ;)

I just had a pretty wacky explanation come into my head : if we treat unMod as the Real Life and Megatokyo as a game (see the unMod OSE episodes)... what if Miho and Kimiko are avatars of the same player ? That's how Miho 'knows' what happens with Kimiko... or ! even Erika (Miho seems to know of Erika's presence after the Animate event). Miho's/Kimiko's player seems to be playing some sort of a multi-character story mode (aka MC+sidekick storyline) . Or if it's two players, they share the console (similar to Piroko and Largo)... Either that, or they are cheating... again :)

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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by Invisigoth » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:32 am

cidjen wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:12 am
snipped

I just had a pretty wacky explanation come into my head : if we treat unMod as the Real Life and Megatokyo as a game (see the unMod OSE episodes)... what if Miho and Kimiko are avatars of the same player ? That's how Miho 'knows' what happens with Kimiko... or ! even Erika (Miho seems to know of Erika's presence after the Animate event). Miho's/Kimiko's player seems to be playing some sort of a multi-character story mode (aka MC+sidekick storyline) . Or if it's two players, they share the console (similar to Piroko and Largo)... Either that, or they are cheating... again :)

[edit: now done editing]

I heartily approve of this theory!

I almost always multibox online games but for some reason this never occurred to me before

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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by iffy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:14 pm

cidjen wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:32 pm
Ping is... an attempt to substitute whatever Miho actually is (a doomed attempt)
Not that Ibara is necessarily correct about his opinion of Ping. Although he apparently knows and seems to have the the demeanor about it; yet also remember Dom rejects Miho as powerless and inapplicable. And not that Ping's original caretaker is correct either. But she was originally explained that way, way back that she 'actually becomes' "one of the girls in the game. Elements of these girls will be absorbed into her basic personality patterns. Over time, she will become an amalgamation of all the girls in the dating simulations and visual novels" It's a different question perhaps if this amalgamation is to the goal of synthesizing new stories and characters and situations that are "new and unique" and not being directly derived exactly from something existing. (Taking that there is nothing new under the sun into account.)

So if Miho has just explained herself as "existing more as a character than a real person" it could explain Analogue or the real thing, or it could be more a description of how Ping supposedly works. Programmed, or due to faults, or because of what she's been absorbing. And yes it could be that's how Miho works too, that she's not actually an original source of anything. But if Miho is actually some force of nature that causes stories (all stories and ideas for them that ever existed emanate from her) and that she didn't gather it from anywhere else but is actually the source of, loosely or directly, Miho wouldn't seem to be either a character or a real person. Depends on how you look at it.

We aren't even sure if that shudder was really real or exactly from what either, so that's not helping. But since we didn't hear what Miho's explanation was, we can't really well judge if ninjagirl is getting it correct in what she's saying, or if Miho is just doing that 'agree with whatever they think' kind of thing yet again.
cidjen wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:36 am
Should have said 'one with a death warrant doesn't just walk in to a ninja compound' :)
Especially since she didn't. ;) She was flown in by a ninja who belongs there. Although certainly we know of at least one previous instance where the person who hid her did so in a place not particularly well suited for hiding, or at least not from everyone. Which is probably fine because in both cases so far no hordes found her there, which apparently was the point of hiding. After all, given what Miho appears to be, it would make sense it's impossible to hide her from stories, if she's where they derive from and is some nexus their characters are pulled to.
cidjen wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:12 am
(when I mentioned that I read something to the effect 'we won't like Piro when this story is done')
The original seemed more a throw-away line made up at some interview basically that was probably more about Largo but really about making a joke relating to insecurity. And that regardless of what it originally meant is almost certainly no longer applicable as proof of anything, true or not. Or even if it is applicable, there's no way to know ahead of time if it will turn up anywhere near true, or if it does, that it was because of any plan. If we go with what Dom said, it will always essentially be somewhat true. No matter what Piro chooses, some group is going to"hate him". Those rooting for PxM are likely none too happy now, and if that reverses, likely those rooting for PxK will be in the same boat. Maybe if Piro says forget them all and goes back home in a huff, everyone will hate him. Or it could be he actually winds up in a harem with all of them, and another set of everyone will hate him. But if we can't even guess at the thoughts intents and motivations of Piro (or anyone else in MT) most of the time to even know if we're correct, it seems an infinite amount more difficult to do so with their creator.



NinjaDefenestrator wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:07 am
Once Miho respawned and showed up in Piro’s apartment, all of the behavior that reflects his deepest emotions is centered around her. That culminates in the comic that I see as the core of their relationship: 1390
Ah quite so, in a manner of speaking. If what's going on is Piro is incapable of letting the past go. Keeps mulling his perceived failures over and over in his mind, blocking him out from real relationships, making choices impossible. What he's got going is it appears to be to him he gave up on her, abandoned her, deserted her when she badly needed somebody to save her. That kind of doesn't fit what has been said about why he did it, in the context of stopping her control over the Endgames servers.

So then, what seems still unresolved is the timing and events. If Miho is controlling the emotions inside the role playing situation, which as he says at the cake shop and displays in the bath house, his character is important to him. During this control of how the game works, Moh corrupts Pirogoeth and then tries to take over the world. How does killing him, and turning her in, count as abandonment exactly, that isn't too clear. If 'attempting to take over all the realms in Endgames but being defeated' was after she tells him she cuts her hair, he gets too close, and she tells him she's a guy playing him. Or if that was all her getting back for Pirogoeth killing Moh. Or something else, when. Plus, perceptions and such being what they are, how much of that is analogy or figurative anyway.
Well, what happens when Piro doesn’t do the right thing by someone he cares about? Two someones, actually: the girl who messed him up so much that he doesn’t understand anything anymore...and the girl he’s deliberately using as a distraction and a rebound.
Miho's clearly got him questioning a lot of things in hindsight and overall, but how much is only because of the emotional manipulation of amusing enigmas, and was it actually he got too close let me save him from being destroyed by hordes, or something else we've missed or not been let in on. That he cares about HER though isn't necessarily at all true. With Kimiko, we could say he's using her, but a great deal of what we've seen has been her specifically encouraging him and helping him to do what he's doing. Which we could consider to be let go of the past. Which means we could also accuse her of using him, but if it's what they both want, how's that any different than her empathy to both Miho and Piro, or his struggles today. Having Miho and Largo both point out Piro has once again saved her to wreck havoc on everything, to ruin the story, to be selfish, to not make a decision, whatever it is. Yes, we might think that Kimiko would be okay with Piro choosing the other direction, but that depends on if either Piro or Miho would be okay with him regressing to whatever imaginary situations he has inside his head that don't exist anywhere else. (The comic that best identifies that likely would be IMO 1216) But accusing anyone of using anyone else, that might have been true at one point for Miho, or maybe it's never been true for anyone.
Here’s a chance for Piro to prove that he can reject Miho as much as she’s rejected him, and he’s using Kimiko to do it.
It seems to me more so that he finds it extremely difficult to let go, maybe still hasn't, and even so Miho is nowhere around to show her he can or can't do anything. Yet the scales have tipped to the downward slide if it is as it seems it could be in 1512, telling his conscience he doesn't need it and it's wrong in lots of the details. Figurative, literal or otherwise.

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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by cidjen » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:21 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:32 am
multibox
Hah TIL :) what that mode is called. thx :)
iffy wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:14 pm
But if Miho is actually some force of nature that causes stories (all stories and ideas for them that ever existed emanate from her) and that she didn't gather it from anywhere else but is actually the source of, loosely or directly, Miho wouldn't seem to be either a character or a real person. Depends on how you look at it.
I think what we are seeing is that Miho was a real person but has been corrupted into an Analogue... Heck, she could be real but some force of nature (by MT game standards) is causing her to come back to life when she dies.
Not unlike what happens in (online) games... You can respawn as many times as you want... Only something causes Miho The Avatar to be aware of having been dead (could be that the player controlling her, gets frustrated when she is about to get some 'action' but dies before being able to experience 'love'?)
iffy wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:14 pm
Not that Ibara is necessarily correct about his opinion of Ping.
No you're quite all right here, it's only expected from him to be dismissive about competitive product... If we think of it that way.
iffy wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:14 pm
She was flown in by a ninja who belongs there.
Yeah so does the Ninjagrrl. Ok so that actually doesn't rule out she's older than Junpei... But would it not mean she would want to hide their younger family members 'mistake' ... She would have executed Miho already if that was the case, to prevent damage to the family honor, regardless of what Junpei has to say.
iffy wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:14 pm
place not particularly well suited for hiding,
Yeah Megagamers wouldn't be that we'll suited (cause of NPC surveillance)...
iffy wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:14 pm
No matter what Piro chooses, some group is going to"hate him".
Maybe so. But Dom seems to have quite a 'helicopter' view.

Having said that.

Before being killballed, Miho monologues about wanting to see Piro fail in this game, and that her objective has changed, she no longer wants him to fail. Just him not winning, will be enough for her to achieve her victory. Yuki's activity may be a deliberate action by another player (multiboxing on same console as Kimi and Miho?) to prevent that from happening?
iffy wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:14 pm
telling his conscience he doesn't need it and it's wrong in lots of the details. Figurative, literal or otherwise.
But why would his conscience be so smug about it ? Wasn't the objective to teach him how to deal with conflicting emotions autonomously, without retreating from the choice? Now he's made one, he's going to feel the consequences of it, not her. So maybe he's dismissed and left his conscience behind, but she's happy about it, because her objectives are about to be completed.
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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by Roamer » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:58 am

iffy wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:58 pm
Roamer wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:19 am
.... it's possible she's been around long enough to see how beings like Miho operate. It would be a huge edge for a Ninja to have knowledge of that sort ....
If the first is true, it might be that the knowledge isn't enough to either avoid or counter the effects, in the same ways it hasn't seemed to have helped anyone else not get dragged into what appears to be the stories springing up around it.
Oh, probably not. But I was thinking, it might partially mitigate them if you knew what was behind them. Possibly it might let you manipulate the power yourself to some degree, or - more safely - manipulate those beings who have the power.

It's getting harder to think of Miho as a girl with this storyline's progression, and more as kind of a helpless avatar of the power. It's amazing she's hung on to as much humanity as she has, given the limited view of people she gets. It also goes a long way toward explaining:
--Why she found Endgames so compelling - She was using it to try and become someone with more humanity - a whole person again.
--How she was able to manipulate the hidden stats - If the hidden stats are reflections of the player's stats, after two centuries, every mannerism would give them away. She couldn't help but see and manipulate them.
--Why she betrayed them in the game. Treachery, manipulation, and death have been all she's known of the world for two centuries. Of course they're how she behaved eventually - habits of that long are hard to break. More practice is needed.

And no, the Cave of Evil doesn't give her real experience in interacting as a person. They're worshippers and they behave as such. She literally can't conceive of their being people she can interact with normally.

[edit] I should probably break that last part out as a separate post, but I'm trying really hard not to write big essays the way I used to in the old forums, and if I break that out I'll probably expand on it, and spend hours digging around for examples, and so on...nope, that way lies madness.

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Re: [1514] "Hard to Explain"

Post by iffy » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:45 pm

cidjen wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:21 am
I think what we are seeing is that Miho was a real person but has been corrupted into an Analogue...
Unless it's the other way around, or something entirely different. ;)

Also exactly so, that's it. Yet whichever way we each see it, it appears it could be a lot of things. Which of them it is, difficult given that nobody much seems to actually know what she is or how she got that way. Has always been that way, isn't actually like that at all. Whatever else about the CoE people and what they think and how they put it, they know this isn't just some ordinary human that can be understood easily if at all.
What she is and wants, or isn't and doesn't want, might be easier to determine if she was more consistent. Told the same story to everyone, and then her actions matched that story. Yet we seem to get various stories, that appear to shift and slide depending on who she's interacting with when. What are the underlying truths of the direction and intensity, so far that only seems to apply to a given person's perspective, subjectivity and opinion.
No you're quite all right here, it's only expected from him to be dismissive about competitive product... If we think of it that way.
Something like that sort of idea. Still, he seems he might be impressed, competitive or not, if he agreed with the premise. Which of course if Ping is artificially sort of creating the same experience, why not. Like with the other two, what he thinks is to him, based upon what he knows and isn't aware he doesn't know. Perhaps Ibara's opinion is more aligned with reality, but since it's Miho, doomed to fail anyway?
Yeah so does the Ninjagrrl.
Do we really know she's supposed to be there. I think probably yes, it seems so she is. Seems so.
But would it not mean she would want to hide their younger family members 'mistake' ... She would have executed Miho already if that was the case, to prevent damage to the family honor
Oh, really we don't have an answer as to her motivations or goals do we? Not the original or what if anything they may have been corrupted to be. That's like asking if she is immune to or countering Miho's powers, or if powers have no bearing upon the situation whether she is or isn't susceptible. But yes, just because it seems nobody much has been able to not be affected, doesn't mean nobody can resist or ignore them.
Yeah Megagamers wouldn't be that we'll suited (cause of NPC surveillance)...
I was more thinking it being the place both Kimiko and Piro would be at. Although it seemed more something like that the story arranged it. Regardless if the plot was supposed to go towards her dying or towards her being rescued. Given Piro's resolve to "save her" not dying seemed more likely. Which is perhaps beside the point, because ostensibly she was being hidden from hordes not from players.
Maybe so. But Dom seems to have quite a 'helicopter' view.
Sure, he's focused on his own deal, but that doesn't mean the essence of it isn't true anyway. At some point, fans will be disappointed even angry when things happen, especially with how so often fans are divided in what they want or expect. Although if the goal is emotion, anything strong might make the actual way it turns out not too important. Another in-story example was Erika telling everyone off, even then she still had her adherents. (Although if Miho hadn't become involved, the outcome may have been very different.)
Again though, given the RL story of what was said back then and after, in forum and out, about hating characters. It appears something that just got said. There may or may not be much to read into or use to determine more. Especially given how things have changed since, however it turns out actually being.
Before being killballed, Miho monologues about wanting to see Piro fail in this game, and that her objective has changed, she no longer wants him to fail. Just him not winning, will be enough for her to achieve her victory.
It wasn't necessarily she no longer wanted to him to fail, but for him to have the same outcome as the other had. She wonders if she herself has changed, but doesn't say if she has or not, or how. If the details are unimportant, maybe even to her it doesn't matter what they are as long as the story is compelling. Then the big thing, is she thinking he won't win and won't lose, no matter what she does? Or if that will be the result only if she doesn't take action. Or if that is what she's going to work towards. Whichever it is, has she continued on that path, or changed again due to something she's decided. Because things have all gone random and are just working out that way.
We might imagine her plan was to use ending the story with Ed to retreat to the ASF, and let all the ongoing stories continue out on their own. She had let Ed end that story, and that was it. Over. That it wasn't only her going to the ASF to wait. Await events to get Junko make Ping post, or put the laptop into Yuki's hands, or get Piro to decide it was time to let go. Is one of the potential scenarios her barely winning, sort of, in some kind of tie situation. Or was she not supposed to be involved at all, did none of what she was thinking in 1121/1122 ever matter.
Yuki's activity may be a deliberate action by another player (multiboxing on same console as Kimi and Miho?) to prevent that from happening?
Miho appears the entire time to be quite aware of Yuki's location and activities, and uses Yuki to provide a path to the CoE without Miho herself suggesting it. (This goes back all the way to Miho taking credit/blame for Yuki's latent MG skillz and yoinking things, the power line walk, arguing at Megagamers; the 'interacting with the Sonodas' story if you will.) If this is a bunch of people running a computer sim and switching control of the game direction, that might fit. At this point though, perhaps it's best to treat this as things actually happening inside MT, even if some of those things are not actual people somehow.
But why would his conscience be so smug about it ?
This is sort of the second time she's visited him to discuss things one on one, and this time is pretty much quite unlike the conversation starting in 898. Seemingly.
The personification of his subconscious might be glad it was correct, and his conscious as him argues with it that it wasn't quite so correct at all. Figuratively. After all, this conscience seems a bit different than it used to be, so perhaps it's just reflections of him. Maybe at the bath house, he broke it. Literally.
Wasn't the objective to teach him how to deal with conflicting emotions autonomously, without retreating from the choice?
Seemed the goal was making sure her assigned charge didn't do bad things, the entire angel on your shoulder but more more proactive and even out in the world small or big interacting with him. Maybe part of that depends on to what extent there is a CEA with little angels and devils and hamsters out and about in Megatokyo interacting with the protagonists.
Now he's made one, he's going to feel the consequences of it, not her. So maybe he's dismissed and left his conscience behind, but she's happy about it, because her objectives are about to be completed.
We could argue no decision like this is ever fully made. Still a bit of malware hanging around interjecting itself. 'You've chosen, you've forgotten, good for you, real people.....' It's not all that different if it is different at all, and I've not totally forgotten....' Perhaps some of this will be revisited, or maybe that's just how things work.

.
Roamer wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:58 am
Oh, probably not. But I was thinking, it might partially mitigate them if you knew what was behind them. Possibly it might let you manipulate the power yourself to some degree, or - more safely - manipulate those beings who have the power.
True. Mostly it seems like with Ed, fearless psycho and all, casually looking up who he's dealing with on his datapad, unable to deal with finding out what she is, and then spends the rest of his time (up until he thinks he's gotten rid of her) getting rid of her when it seems initially pretty clear he can do nothing to her even if she doesn't stop him.

It's quite possible none of Ed, Dom or Ibara are good examples of anything, it might be they are the only people like that. However, it does seem to some extent that whatever anyone "knows" about Miho doesn't help them much, not just those three. One of the things we've pointed out is her failures, and if they actually are. At the CoE during the radio show, she apparently is upset with Largo, the put down by Erika and really hammered Largo, about his casual dismissal of what happened in Endgames. Beating him by killing him, the subtext of rivalry over her and/or her character, all that. So she tries to seduce him. Or does she set up a situation that will upset Piro? Either way, Ping is drawn further towards Miho. And Piro's beat-down might only set up the next day at Megagamers. Which includes mending mistaken ideas of Erika and Masamichi, and thus sets up some other things for later. Of course, maybe it all just happened. Maybe no Analogue powers impacted anything. Also maybe though that is what she is and does, as has been said. (Likely, something is true, after all.)

Might any of these people pulled into the story, somewhat to fully, have become able to do otherwise? If Miho was manipulating a number of people and situations, and if they knew of it. Sadly, we don't know those things, including what might have been planned and was intended. Still, if there's a story-creation thing going on, it appears to impact everyone. That includes ASF monitoring police and bail-setting judges, various ninja, and many of her adherents. Or maybe that example is better shown with Komugiko at the bath house. She knows what Miho has done, but only after the fact, thinks Piro couldn't have gone. But used Mugi to divert and escape; as was said, she's always doing that to mom. Junko too yes, maybe even in a way Piro and Largo. Everyone. Too, for somebody nobody knows anything about allegedly, Miho has a lot of fans, even if not all of them are supposed to be there and aren't the correct kind.
It's getting harder to think of Miho as a girl with this storyline's progression, and more as kind of a helpless avatar of the power.
Unless that's just what she wants you to think. ;)
It's amazing she's hung on to as much humanity as she has, given the limited view of people she gets.
She might know them all better singly and as a group than they know themselves.
Although one thing that doesn't seem much resolvable is that she's supposed to be represented somewhat somehow in fiction, made more compelling when those portray aspects of her inject and intertwine themselves more fully. Yet from what we've seen of Miho, it hasn't been representations, it's been out in the MT world with people. Even during the Endgames thing there was a physical component at least somewhat.
It's not clear which is the actual place Miho usually operates, fiction, outside, or both those places and more. If things happen to make even the not real become real, what's the difference though? Something like as Kimiko so eloquently put it 1003. Which sort of Ibara mentions 1240, Ed's reaction 819. Then a number of other things all over the place, her or otherwise, including 705 and 1278.
--Why she found Endgames so compelling - She was using it to try and become someone with more humanity - a whole person again.
Yes, in Endgames to find people who might be at least somewhat immune to her powers. Or maybe the other way around. If there's a reason other than just recuperating, or waiting for another story, or because she wanted to grief some mmo players, it could be looking for help.
--How she was able to manipulate the hidden stats - If the hidden stats are reflections of the player's stats, after two centuries, every mannerism would give them away. She couldn't help but see and manipulate them.
True, it isn't so clear that what she did was an actual hack, rather than being able to control the servers and software the same way she does people. Even machines bow to her will.
--Why she betrayed them in the game. Treachery, manipulation, and death have been all she's known of the world for two centuries. Of course they're how she behaved eventually - habits of that long are hard to break. More practice is needed.
If anyone would know such things, somebody who is fifty or two hundred or three billion years old should. Might not need any practice. It could have been more about Piro and Largo's behavior out of game, if it wasn't just how that story happened to go. She could also have been setting up what's happening now on the off chance they ever made there way to where she was. Who's to say? It's still not a given the betrayal went exactly like it was supposed to have been, or that she only knows how to do that sort of thing.
And no, the Cave of Evil doesn't give her real experience in interacting as a person. They're worshipers and they behave as such. She literally can't conceive of their being people she can interact with normally.
I'm not sure how to feel about them yet. On the one hand Mugi seemed not so given to being overwhelmed (although perhaps that's because apparently she's not quite exactly fully human) and Kenji was out there chanting. On the other hand, Waltah seemed particularly attuned. Door people and bouncers and whatever else that perhaps don't know much of anything. And the crowd, or as she seemed to put it, the grieving horde.

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