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Re: [1509] - "the floor is lava"

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:15 pm
by iffy
Invisigoth wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:21 pm
Yeah Piro totally crushed Largo's face and hospitalized him because he has absolutely no feelings at all for Miho Piro totally performed heroic levels of CPR to keep Miho alive long enough for her to make it to surgery because he feels nothing at all for Miho Piro totally charged into a mudder fusking war zone through cordons of mercenaries and mass destruction because he TOTALLY DOESN'T FEEL ANYTHING AT ALL FOR MIHO!!!!
All of those things seem to speak as much or more of how Piro feels about it, or how it makes him feel. Not whatever the truth is, about Miho or anything else. But even if he is doing all those things because of or for her - and not all for himself - it still doesn't confirm that he loved her or loves her. None of it establishes what exactly he thinks about it, but we can notice he appears very reactive to things, most of which he doesn't do anything about. He's in some recon mode or something. To what end, the ink isn't there yet, much less dry.

darrin wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:19 pm
(p -> q) -/-> (q -> p)
Or something like that!

We might say that just because somebody doesn't take any action doesn't mean they don't care, and being afraid of taking the wrong action isn't the only reason they might not act. etc etc etc.

One of the questions that's been discussed was why his conscience wasn't around, hasn't returned. Budget, other concerns. Some might say this isn't an issue of his conscience any longer, so there's no need. Yet... There's this aspect where Piro is highly emotive and imaginative with some things, drawing mostly, a gifted artist, who doesn't seem to trust his own work. This seems to extend to "being too pushy" with strangers. Oh, the beer garden, he just starts moping when Kimiko gets aggressive about the rail card. Or when his only goal and desire seems to be sharing his artwork with Kimiko. But now, he can hardly be bothered to get interested in having his art go along with that game he was so stoked about with the VA he was thinking of. And she's more than interested in him; his portfolio, the laptop, calling him with updates, see disappeared especially panel 6, and helping to help Miho to including 'dying for her'. Kimiko is helping Piro now save the mystical being they've both seemingly bonded to in some way, so they can at the least work together on it, just like they've been doing all day with the rescue.

There's not much doubt Kimiko likes him a lot, to the point where she'll help him correctly lay the past down, to lay the poor thing to rest. No matter how messed up he is. Kimiko is the only one who hasn't given up, although she might eventually, depending on what Piro does. And it is his decision of course, and he can continue to not decide. But that is what has been the problem. His conscience gave up on trying to get him to take a course of action that's not somebody else making it for him. Dom has (story removed him, but like Ed and Ibara not really players, and certainly quite ineffective. Although there was that one time Dom suggested Piro wouldn't move on a body pillow and that's pretty much how it's seemed recently.) Largo hasn't, exactly, but that path is different. Actually, really, let go of the demented fantasy Largo says, Piro says Largo first - what Demented Fantasy involving ancient goddesses is Largo in? That's really kind of nonsensical. It sure made Piro angry having Largo insult him like that, but that's okay because a great violent face punch that is the most aggressive active thing Piro has done is cool to Largo, likely not just because hey broken face but because that spine was there, as Largo has mentioned and we've seen. But see Piro has this over-literal semi-imagination problem. He plays sims (dating farming ) and mmos where he does get into the flow apparently. FPS, seems as if Piro wins lots because he's being logical tactical strategic very well while Largo just runs around. But off the computer. Like seeing zillas. They're there but they're money. After umpteen times of evidence Largo is a teacher, whoa Largo really is a teacher. Largo expresses these things with a lot of over hype but seems to know the real, while Piro mostly seems to repress or ignore both. I digress maybe. Still, did Piro even see the metaphysical supranatural power form from thoughts and tear down a building while he was in it? Notice Yuki being an MG and drawing them off while appearing to be Miho? Or what was he going to do when he got to the apartment anyway, he sure didn't seem to expect anyone....

Why not here, his conscience gave up when, after his barely contained frustration at Miho's existence, he also suggested Miho's fix was just get new fans; that's not how it works at all ever. Erika and Largo gave up pretty much during that phone call on the train. Ping gave up and has moved off. Same for Miho, she is leading him around on a demonstration that he doesn't get at all, after she gives up on telling him anything multiple times. Last one to do so was Megumi; he's set on not getting it and not going along with it, she gives up. Why bother. She's like, whatever, go play checkers or something, geez.

Maybe Piro is heading for the bad ending where he doesn't win or lose because he's never chosen. Or maybe getting him there is the whole point of the Megatokyo story.

Re: [1509] - "the floor is lava"

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:29 pm
by cidjen
there are a few accumulated details that would really determine, what kind of ending will Piro's story be like :-

- the effect of ninjaediting of Miho's story (and/or Yaku's paw on it)

- the 'polygon bump' (that Miho only just learned about, and Kimiko still doesn't know) - or maybe another little detail from his buried and battered old laptop would resurface...

- he seems bound to be working on Miho's representation, in a game funded by Dom, alongside Kimiko.

- what happens when he actually accumulates enough money to go 'home' ? What will the choice be, how will it be worded and spelled, and how it will make him feel?

Re: [1509] - "the floor is lava"

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:43 pm
by iffy
Just rethinking over this who is still or ever was in love (or anything close to it) or not question. For the original questions, it's certainly possible one was "in love" with the other, and or the other direction. Her being his idea (or drawing from photo) of the sick girl locked away in disgrace who cuts her hair, or her being m0h in chats with him Piro, or the her being Pirogoeth and the him being Moh, in Endgames. With the caveat that reality is disappointing compared to fantasy? But at some point (from perceptions of the stories about Endgames Largo told to Erika and Piro told to Kimiko) there was this idea Endgames was nothing but something like allegory for whatever (we later learn apparently) was the seeming rivalry between Largo and Piro. At the least, Moh moved into and later broke up the Endgames adventuring group, the whole 'bro thing'. Maybe more who knows, it depends on which 'demented fantasy' is "Not this. Not again." After all, apparently when people aren't actively interacting with her they forget her. Whoever "she" actually is. Assuming she exists. Which she kind of doesn't.

If Piro fell in love with something, it wasn't in person of something there in any sort of normal back and forth interactions. Kimiko tells Miho what's the difference, and he says to Kimiko that was an illusion that never was. Is he in denial, or being practical about that he just doesn't like how he feels about how it went. Both (and other alternatives) can be very strong emotions, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're love, even if some people perceive it that way. (Not that it isn't true, but on that front, only how the person perceives it matters for their truth.)

The real is not as good as the fake, some would say, but clearly the present real Kimiko is much more accessible and friendly and interested than the past fake Miho. However we put it. See, when Kimiko has an outburst at Piro and he refuses to be the unwarranted target of anger at other things, she is somewhat destroyed by that, and they both apologize to each other. Not so wonderful and fantastic feelings there. Yet when Piro berates Miho for trying to manipulate Largo, Miho goes and cries to Ping and starts off that story, then shows up the next day at work to continue it in another manner and during that drag Yuki into the story too. On purpose and in a rather fake manner. Miho doesn't hide then run away from Piro like Kimiko did, no they gap together and then spend one of the least steamy bathhouse experiences ever. While apologizing for nothing and saying nothing, until the story takes them elsewhere. Whatever all that is, something is way off, just like showing up to stop Ed from shooting Ping or happening to know Erika and Largo have had a fight or luckily being there to rescue Kimiko by leaping out of a killball blast a fraction of a second before it hits. Or for an argument on the subway or a meeting at a restaurant. Miho is probably a lot more flamboyant than anyone really real might hope to be. There seems even more than that way off, but it seems difficult to put a finger on in the same ways as it is to verbally explain Analogues. :sigh:

So. Endgames being allegory-ish as an idea. The discussions at the apartment and store and gaps and bathhouse and school weren't about Endgames, they were about how Miho distance-dumped Piro using falsehoods and lies and trickery. Certainly seems somewhat like in Endgames, just lacking her controlling the game's emotional stats. Unless she did the same thing in and out of it, which we lack the details for. Whatever that actually was, their conversations were about before, then how to save her now. We do get some Endgames stuff from Mugi, with at least the suggestion Moh wasn't permakilled in game, Piro's character still being supported but not interacted with by Piro and having a what looks to be a lot like a young Moh. But even that wasn't love, but manipulation for purposes of power? Why it was the two were amusing little enigmas, they got pulled into the game and toyed with. It's also how Komugiko (who it seems Yuki was goaded into coming up with to call) has the Endgames information. Not that it's so odd others that are involved are playing, it fits perfectly reasonably into story. Except, it's sometimes difficult to know what just happens that is only coincidental, and which may be manipulations to the plot by outside forces. Normally that idea would be pretty silly, but we do have to contend with an entity that has been said to create and seems to create such things.

Which it's also interesting that story Miho tells Kimiko that Kimiko doesn't take seriously. We have a locket and the necrowombicon, and (apparently European) pirates, making Miho quite possibly Irish or similar in area, and somewhere between 100 to 600 years old or the like; mayhaps even more of a vintage than she proclaimed to Largo at the CoE. Not that we need to go into how reliable Miho isn't. And lo and behold, it ends with the protagonist alone, locked away, perhaps like Pirogoeth pregnant, and easy pickings for players. Which rather sounds a bit similar to the out-of-Endgames situation with the chats. So maybe Piro was going to go visit the girl locked away and in bad shape, she got scared, and dumped him. Yet that isn't necessarily love either way, it seems as easily empathy or concern or even pity. And in the conversations, it doesn't seem he's as much bothered that she rejected him, but by the harsh way it was done. He was also quite uninterested in doing anything but talking and waiting to see if she'd tell him anything. If it was a demonstration, because it couldn't be explained, it's not odd at all she wasn't telling him anything. That question is if it's still a demonstration somehow, or if she gave up trying due to his obstinate refusal to not get it but to instead parse it all through that internal filter of his that tries to explain everything.

Speaking of that, notice how in 1271 the interrogator never gives a name? Maybe she doesn't have one, or maybe she's not what she appears. Although I'd hazard a guess that if he hadn't used " the subject" "her" "her character type" he might have said "Kotone". (yes Piro also doesn't call her by name in 1271) Or maybe that's not correct either, and it's her ancient Irish goddess name, or perhaps even The Adversary. :iiam:

My questions though revolve more around what does Piro do now, what does Kimiko do next. Has enough time gone by for anyone else (who) to show up, will somebody already there (that we know about or not) show up, or does it go like it very likely would if we weren't watching it. Lots could happen, some of which depends on this situation, and what either Piro or Kimiko is going to be like if she stops being Miho. Well, that's already happened, hasn't it, and he is apparently not trying to get away, and her plans are to wash out her hair so they don't ruin the sheets. Maybe that sounds more comfortable than the top of a train or the like. Although yes indeed, he could run, she could change their mind, somebody could intrude. But we're all aware we all have lots of ideas of how somebody could mess this up, and that there are a lot of ways to do that. Not knowing what exactly they're thinking just makes it all a bigger question.

Re: [1509] - "the floor is lava"

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:14 am
by cidjen
Endgames may be allegory to us readers... But I should point out that we don't just know the portions shown when Piro talks with Kimiko or Largo with Erika. There are e.g. flashback scenes when Miho faints at school (or actually does but respawns immediately?). There is the whole omake and dpd theater. To the MT cast, Endgames is a parallel digital universe. Hence it is real - as real to them as online MMORPG games are to us.
Also it is actually implied that M0h was sort of permanently killed - he is nowhere near Pirogoeth when she turns up at Sunday's/Mugi's Inn. Without the player control, the avatar maybe may respawn, but takes a long time (or maybe even a glitch in game, see the Endgames VN chapter 1428).
Miho might have tried to manipulate Piro's character but she was unable to - instead, M0h started to 'statistically care' about Pirogoeth. Miho didn't like it - look at the end the scene after her dance, in the bath room - it looked to me like something, that might have happened after Piro logged off (his character went back to doing the everyday living tasks) but Miho did not. This would suggest that Miho controlled M0h to do that, overcoming his 'feel stats'.
So yes it was manipulation here, ("yer always wanted to git the lil domina" / Mugi) but was it same or similar manipulation by Miho on Piro, on the outside conversations?

(anectotal : when I played WoW, I selected a character that had paths to develop similar skills, to a character that I liked reading about (the Witcher) (I even styled him up that way) - I finished the 'free' available story line, and then I went on to explore the world off the beaten path... with the skills of level 20 human mage/warrior... I went to almost all regions, even if I had to 'die' a lot to get through certain places, because the monsters were way out of my league. But I visited places, I would not have reached otherwise, without changing my character. Many players choose characters that look and feel like themselves. They don't last very long.)

Both Miho and Piro were skilled players. They had no problem playing characters that were very different than themselves.

But would it be so different for Miho to fall in love with Piro thanks to his 'skill' acquired from rel-sims, than M0h falling in love with Pirogoeth?
'It was a nice little fantasy, for a little while'. Yeah right, look, she's visibly regretting that she'd killed it... that it wasn't... any more... even Yuki can detect it.

Even if Miho isn't real because she's a 'story representation', the current representation of her story is blood, flesh, bones, brains and feelings all like a girl.

Re: [1509] - "the floor is lava"

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:29 pm
by iffy
It's not a sure thing we can apply any lessons from non-story elements to the story.
Or that when somebody feels something, they're correct about what they think that something is.

About the rest, the point is kind of that there's so many ways to interpret what we know (or think we know,) so many ways to fill in what we can guess at, so much that we're given or not given on purpose, and the perceptional nature of it all, we can't be sure. Too many choices about which hacks went what way, who was more skilled at something and if that skill was actually appicable in some given situation. Made all the more difficult in that Miho at the ASF may have initially been in the game, for some particular reason other than playing a game or spending time.

Being in the flesh now is not back then when apparently it was all online. But even still, now Kimiko has returned to being her, and Miho has died. Apparently so far, there's another character that has formed at the ninja compound, and it's uncertain what that story will be. Although it seems that it will be some continuation in the current numbers of stories going on. Since the subterfuge wasn't apparently an actual story-ending death. Maybe it's more like the Ed/Miho story, a pause of sorts. Or a new incarnation, mumble mumble

Re: [1509] - "the floor is lava"

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:21 pm
by cidjen
Given how much information can be 'distilled' about the past from the comics alone, I'd say treating the Endgames extra material is entirely justified. After all, it's Endgames, that Miho dreams after collapsing in the school bathroom. It's where the plot (I think) starts.

About not being 'in the flesh' when playing - oh, that's interesting. So Miho might have been just some 'data remanence' or 'glitch' (if we subscribe to the theory that MT universe is a game, that the characters form unMod omake are playing) that would add more credibility to the theory why did she zonk his feelings he might have had towards her two years ago... namely to protect him from falling into horde's hands....

Re: [1509] - "the floor is lava"

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:00 pm
by iffy
Yes it is in story things like Pirogoeth cutting Moh's face literally and/or figuratively. Whatever is being remembered, seemingly how Piro neutralized Miho by breaking the emotional stat manipulation or its effects. So too in story are a lot of other Endgames information and flashbacks. Mentions, explanations, and larger sections such as those descriptions and the drawings of inside Endgames that go along with the descriptions. Which aren't necessarily always clear; said words/art (Largo to Erika, Piro to Kimiko, Mugi to Piro and Miho) could be to fill us in on more, or be what the speaker is thinking, or be what the listener is thinking. But not omake and dpd and extra books and forums, things that aren't in story. We probably should include that partially finished/unfinished add-on about Moh's consciousness or whatever it was, I thought it just made it more confusing, but regardless apparently if we ever get there it isn't pertinent yet.

Which it's not Endgames but there is a DPD for The Dance of the Evils (Yuki and Miho at the CoE) that also shows up on a wall in a story comic, tho that might have just been an easter egg of sorts.

It was once said by those qualified to say so that we didn't know a lot about Miho, including if she existed. Except it was not in story, it was in forum, and also in another separate context, and years ago. But in story, about left over used up data reflections, she has hinted or claimed such things. In the context of dealings with Dom mostly, which is how he seems to think of her. So all in all, more we can't be sure of, as in, are these words actions behaviors only due to a story going on between her and another person, or is the information more universally applicable?

Also, considering that Miho ditched Piro around during after Endgames to save him presupposes the deadly danger is actual and not controllable. It assumes the everyone around her dies scenario is true, rather than the other one where everyone except her lives. Rather than the one we're actually seeing. Once again, we appear to be in the position where all roads seem to lead back to Miho as the one saying how it is. From her or from somebody repeating information potentially from her or known to be from her.

Even then "how it is" isn't just one way. There is some amount of fluidity in what happens when and how, or at least that's what we've seen. Aside from what Dom and Ed say about her (and how her interactions with each seem to match what each has said) a primary example might be how she calls off the zombie rangers at Ikebukuro. Then purposely goes to meet them at ground zero at just the correct spot in time. (And supposedly gets killed but isn't dead except in Ed's mind and potentially Meimi's feelings.) Which, it doesn't matter how we put it, that result is neither everyone around her, or only her being killed, and in a story-ending manner. Not everyone else, not her. Apparently then we can't trust any of the versions she gives to be a correct one, given that they all appear from somewhat to very incorrect compared to what happens. So why believe as fact that there's a mortal danger to Piro presented by this horde.

Certainly from the aftermath of the school (and in a lesser sense the Erika Riots) it's clear hordes are destructive and dangerous to be around. And we do not know how deadly they would have been if Yuki hadn't drawn off the one that we saw hurt a lot of people to emergency room levels. Yet still, the deadly to things that don't fit correctly into the story, or deadly to those that cause the stories; that 'deadly to' is just more unrealized potential.

Re: [1509] - "the floor is lava"

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:00 pm
by cidjen
Why believe that Piro was in danger...
Well in the school incident, horde only lost interest when he and Yuki played out the little 'i don't love you any more' drama (as relayed later by Yutaka to Yuki).
He was in similar kind of danger when he was at the Animate event, but he managed to spin it.
But that was a crowd of people some of who believed he is the positive character to play their idol with.
Miho's horde wouldn't be as forgiving... I think she knew it then and knows it now...

Re: [1509] - "the floor is lava"

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:37 pm
by iffy
Not just dangerous, deathly specifically almost happened but for luck kinds of horribly dangerous. Yes, certainly hordes are dangerous. We've seen the outcome. Are they directly dangerous to Piro's life, as in they might grab him and then turn him into shredded Piro? Were they before, are they now. Miho has said they are. She says a lot of things. Some even make sense. Some are probably even true.

Aside from the damage being collateral (horde does not break Mugi's leg, falling building from over-eager participants overloading the building does) and only happening to one named character (unless you count Piro breaking Largo's face) (or unless you count Miho having that and other things catch up to her). The Horde itself (not from what else they caused) did not apparently directly hurt anyone beyond scrapes and bruises. And maybe some or most of that was done for effect or imagined. (And apparently from what Ririka is saying, they weren't nearly as dangerous as those who showed up to keep stability.)

Being around the horde is a bad not fun thing, especially if a building they knock down puts you in hospital. That wasn't the warning though.

We can only guess at what would have happened if Yuki hadn't tricked that horde away, so all there is was potential danger. We don't have much reason to believe they aren't dangerous, since they are to some extent clearly, but it's beyond that as a question. Were Piro (or Miho, or anyone else) in direct deadly danger from them. We don't really know, we only have Miho saying they'd rip them apart or drag them down forever and so on. Yes, it seems that they only let Miho go when Yuki distracted them, but we don't know if they only let Miho go because Yuki distracted them. Or if they were supposed to do that anyway. Not that necessarily any person is guiding them, but there is a story. Allegedly.

The only thing we've seen that very apparently was on the verge of directly being destroyed by purposeful action, with a last minute save of real bad stuff, was the person with the rifle who fired it at Megumi's head and Junpei stopping the bullet from permanently ruining her day.

And still, when it comes to the two scenarios Miho has said happen without fail, have to occur, are what's waiting. The big ones are she tells Piro she has to die, and Kimiko that everyone around her dies. Neither scenario occurred; she did not die and everyone but her didn't die. That lack of death has been overwhelming. Really, Dom, Ed, Kimiko, Piro, Yuki, Masamichi, Ping, Junko, Meimi, Komugiko, Kenji, Erika. What Miho has told or discussed with or about any number of people, that we've seen or heard about, many times things often appear to work to large extent as the other non-Miho story participants think they will. Well, she often appears to believe it as well. It seems unlikely all of those things could be true at once.

Re: [1509] - "the floor is lava"

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:41 am
by cidjen
We saw what the Horde managed to do to Piro between the moment when he and Miho disappeared in it, to when Piro emerged back from the piles of rubble.. torn off jacket, damaged shirt, no tie, scraped, bruised, nearly destroyed clothing. Luckily Yuki did pull a 'I hate you' scene convincing enough, that the Horde stopped attacking him. Any longer, and he could have been completely unraveled, layer by layer, probably. The horde battered and bruised Miho up too, she even lost a braid of hair; we see that when she's back at the apartment, no clothes aside from a t-shirt, blood on her face.
I guess as the two scenarios can't happen simultaneously, there will be some third way :)

Re: [1509] - "the floor is lava"

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:05 pm
by iffy
They formed from nothing and nowhere and everyone and every place, and during their rioting and rampaging knocked down a building, grabbed Miho, pulled down Piro, and injured many people. They are dangerous and unpredictable. Could it have been worse, probably. As it was, Miho and Piro were disheveled, clothing torn, bloodied, bruised, and Miho with some hair gone, which we can blame them all for. Too, the injuries to everyone who had to go to the emergency room, including to at least one named character, very bad leg/ankle injury. And the questions of blaming Piro for Largo's face and blaming everything for Miho's heart stopping. Dangerous and violent and a worry to some extent clearly. What exactly are they capable of doing, is an unanswered question beyond what they did do.

If there was no Yuki, would they have let Miho go, we don't know. And would they have done more to Piro or not is unclear. Were they deadly to anyone, no. Luck? Circumstance? The story? Other? We don't know that either, we are guessing at what didn't happen. Which pretty much encompasses an infinity of items minus only what did happen.

Which that 'what did happen' is not what was proclaimed to Piro and Kimiko by Miho; neither her or everyone around her died. Maybe we just haven't reached that point in the story yet, or maybe it's not true. That's just stating the obvious. Pretty much as obvious is that we can't necessarily trust what Miho says about what has to happen or what is going to happen.