[1588] things left behind

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Roamer » Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:33 am

cidjen wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:55 am
Roamer wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:57 am


Or maybe I'm just a romantic.
No that's fine, just ... this might not just be a story this straight forward ;)

As in Invis' theory of layered game worlds, Megatokyo being the (mini)game played by the UnMod characters when they're not doing 'work' in their own universe; so Piroko (UM) plays Piro in MT, M0h plays Miho, Largo & Erika play themselves; but it is layered too that Piroko is a character that Piro himself uses in games, I'm just getting a vibe that the person (from the layer above UM) who plays both Piro and Kimiko or (t)he(y) have someone close playing the other character, I suspect a spouse or a sibling... and they share a screen like in the Lego games ;)
I know, and I still want to hold out for thinking the MT universe can influence the loons they are in UnMod (seriously, they gave Piroko a gun?) enough to let people have normal and sane relationships. That's what I mean by being a romantic.
darrin wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:36 am
I will see your Chekhov's Gun and raise you an Occam's Razor
LoL. And 'unjustifiably elaborate' is an excellent way to phrase it.
cidjen wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:40 am

I get that, but this possibility was never really (even alluded to be) removed: yes in 1151 it is being said it's for the glasses. And damn right if MY newfound girlfriend found ME a job I would only dream of when I was back home, then damn right /I/ would do whatever it gets, to keep both; tis the story of my actual life even tho my SO isn't originally from whence we went to get the job but isn't that just... projecting my own expectations into the character? something that has been pointed out as a sort-of clue of the matter 'main problem with fans', multiple times in the comic? Sure /I/ would, and /I/ can hope Piro would, but there wasn't really a proof to the contrary here either. Apart from maybe Piro character growth and him /wanting/ to be with this girl (and btw we don't even know for sure, if he's been told whether he got the job or not). (And it really doesn't clash with the practce of me 'shipping' them or making dreamy imaginary predictions either, because it's my imagination, not expectations :) )

(EDIT: if you need it in /song/ here it is ;) )
You might be overthinking it on the projection issue. While it's present and accurate, it's also human and therefore inevitable. And I don't think it's projection to point out that the Piro we have standing here today isn't the same Piro who showed up in MT, clueless, broke, and hung over. Neither of them have mentioned going back in a very long time, and they've both put down roots that are stronger than anything they had back in the states. They're both gainfully employed, with better prospects on the horizon, and at the moment they both have girlfriends worth fighting to keep. (No telling if Kimi-Zilla is a love em and leave em kind of girl just yet, though.)

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by IrwinFletcher » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:32 pm

MegaTokyo...updated monthly!

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Invisigoth » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:24 am

IrwinFletcher wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:32 pm
MegaTokyo...updated monthly!
Do you ever post about anything besides complaining about lack of updates?

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by cidjen » Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:17 pm

Roamer wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:33 am

You might be overthinking it on the projection issue. While it's present and accurate, it's also human and therefore inevitable. And I don't think it's projection to point out that the Piro we have standing here today isn't the same Piro who showed up in MT, clueless, broke, and hung over. Neither of them have mentioned going back in a very long time, and they've both put down roots that are stronger than anything they had back in the states. They're both gainfully employed, with better prospects on the horizon, and at the moment they both have girlfriends worth fighting to keep. (No telling if Kimi-Zilla is a love em and leave em kind of girl just yet, though.)
Agreed here - I just hope Fred actually /doesn't / use any of my imagination barfs, maybe not always, but I'm /sometimes/ trying to write what I don't /really/ want to happen ;)
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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Roamer » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:32 pm

cidjen wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:17 pm
Roamer wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:33 am

You might be overthinking it on the projection issue. While it's present and accurate, it's also human and therefore inevitable. And I don't think it's projection to point out that the Piro we have standing here today isn't the same Piro who showed up in MT, clueless, broke, and hung over. Neither of them have mentioned going back in a very long time, and they've both put down roots that are stronger than anything they had back in the states. They're both gainfully employed, with better prospects on the horizon, and at the moment they both have girlfriends worth fighting to keep. (No telling if Kimi-Zilla is a love em and leave em kind of girl just yet, though.)
Agreed here - I just hope Fred actually /doesn't / use any of my imagination barfs, maybe not always, but I'm /sometimes/ trying to write what I don't /really/ want to happen ;)
Every so often I point out that I am a master of the worst case scenario. I point this out because I want others to try and come up with better (or at least less grim) ideas than I do.

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Rapierman » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:21 pm

darrin wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:36 am
I will see your Chekhov's Gun and raise you an Occam's Razor.
Ray, I submit that this should be worth one drink for the MT Drinking Game: Every time Occam's Razor is mentioned. (It's a cheat, even if it's true.)
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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by IrwinFletcher » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:12 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:24 am
IrwinFletcher wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:32 pm
MegaTokyo...updated monthly!
Do you ever post about anything besides complaining about lack of updates?
SOMEBODY has to!

Would you rather I point out that the Kickstarter page hasn't been updated since July 16, 2017?

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Ningen 2 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:23 pm

And just to get it out of the way so everyone will (hopefully) shut up about it, it's been a year and a half since the last rant.
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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by darrin » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:52 am

Rapierman wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:21 pm
darrin wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:36 am
I will see your Chekhov's Gun and raise you an Occam's Razor.
Ray, I submit that this should be worth one drink for the MT Drinking Game: Every time Occam's Razor is mentioned. (It's a cheat, even if it's true.)
How the hell is it more of a "cheat" than the Chekhov's Gun schtick? Either it's two drinks here, or zero. Either way, if you're going to invoke the Name of the Ray, the first term you should be landing on is "epileptic trees", which is way higher on the list than either of those two. Piro actually suddenly being a womanizing casual-sex-without-commitment one-night-stander, with no prior evidence or precedent for this in-comic so far, is about the epilepticest tree I've ever seen, despite the simplicity of the description.

Forget the stupid plane tickets for a second, forget Megatokyo itself, this is a general principle. One claim is "X is vitally important to the story, even though none of the characters have mentioned it in ages, and even though the author hasn't bothered even obliquely hinting at its importance since then". The other is "X is probably not important to the story, given that nobody's mentioned it in ages, and given a lot of relatively more important stuff has gone down since then." The former is always going to be more complicated, and therefore less likely, than the latter, regardless of the details. I'm not saying impossible of course, just that it shouldn't be the preferred model; obviously both are making "assumptions", but the former is making more assumptions about what's going on and why, so it needs correspondingly more evidence to back it up.

And yeah, I get that this is not a frigging high school debate club, and I have no expectation anyone will give any more of a rat's ass about "burden of proof" than any other potential drinking game elements. But even if it subjects me to further mockery, I can't help asking the obvious question: why now? If Piro has always been just about the "casual sex without commitment", if 1500 pages of emo angstiness were all just a front to get her in the sack, if no actual in-comic evidence is or should ever have been needed for this claim, and if any requests for any kind of support for this claim warrant no better response than "ha ha what a dork, let's take another drink!", then... why promote the claim only now? Why not last night, when Piro and Kimiko were removing glass and toner from each others' naked bodies? Why wasn't it pointed out back when 1151 came out, that Piro was only bullshitting about revising his entire portfolio in pursuit of a long-term project together with Kimiko, that he was only shooting for a one-night stand with her? Why are you guys only after TWELVE YEARS pointing out that obviously Piro was lying and only needs money for those critical plane tickets, and that Fred keeping Piro silent on the subject of plane tickets for the preceding FOUR years was All Part of the Plan, to get in Kimiko's pantsu by pretending for months to be interested in art?

Seraphim appears in eighty-one story strips. Usually she is alone with Piro, or it is otherwise made obvious only Piro can see / hear her. In most of those she is urging him to man up and make some kind of decision, to at least quit waffling and believe in himself about something. Most of his responses are a meek "Yes ma'am." So.. they are both lying in all of those? The goal is a quick night with Kimiko but they're both pretending otherwise? Or Piro is lying to his own conscience, and his own conscience is dumb enough to believe it? Who the heck is the performance for? (If you say "fourth wall" then *I* get to take a drink.)

When Asmodeus tells Piro to "make with the clicking", Piro adamantly refuses. Why? Nobody else is present, nobody except Piro (and intangibles like Asmodeus and Seraphim, presumably) will ever know. It's pretty doubtful Tsubasa has a read receipt on the email, so... what's stopping ol' love-em-n-leave-em Piro from a simple peek? If a little boink-with-no-commitment is his only goal, how could a few pictures provoke any kind of hesitation? I guess we can assume that he has higher standards for himself; if the goal is to get her naked in person, then a few underwear pictures are beneath his dignity. And I guess we can further assume that for some reason he feels obliged to not just tell Asmodeus this, but to continue spinning the same lie he has going with Seraphim. (And that we never get an explanation of. Gosh, if only it were permitted to point out that additional assumptions without any evidence to support them reduce the likelihood of a claim rather than increasing it, without that earning a point for someone else in a drinking game! :roll:)

Don't get me wrong, I really don't care. You guys can believe whatever you want about Piro or anyone else. (Years of having it explained to me that Miho is irredeemably evil despite anything Fred might do or say already did a sufficient job of hammering that point home, I promise you.) Just friendly advice here: you guys are deep in Teddy Werebear territory at this point. You need to turn back now and look for one of those trail markers you blew past a while ago, or at least send up a flare or something. Pretty soon it is gonna be snowing hard enough that the helicopters will have to call off the search.
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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by darrin » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:07 am

IrwinFletcher wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:12 am
Invisigoth wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:24 am
IrwinFletcher wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:32 pm
MegaTokyo...updated monthly!
Do you ever post about anything besides complaining about lack of updates?
SOMEBODY has to!

Would you rather I point out that the Kickstarter page hasn't been updated since July 16, 2017?
1587 comics in 245 months is six and a half per month (a bit better than "weekly"), not one per month ("monthly"). So if I had the option, I guess I'd say, I'd rather people were able to count (to seven, at least)?

But really, the better answer is:
"I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a pen, and draw your own comic. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."
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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by HakuRyoku » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:39 pm

Hahaha, I have not actually laughed out loud in quite awhile so thanks for that... and Col. Jessups face just makes that whole post all the better.

Anyway; back to the comic at hand... I'm not 100% convinced these two did the deed.. yet... that might be changing here soon, or it could be a 'get to the door if you can' challenge from Kimiko for funnsies... dunno. Now; for starters, Kimiko is wearing a towel... and honestly, it would be way more convincing (to me) if she was wrapped up in a bed sheet. I have never met anyone who would have sex (outside of sex in a shower -more on that later-) where they wrap themselves up in a shower towel afterwards. Piro here, is looking a little too comfy in those pants.... they could have at least teased us with having the button undone... on top of that, he is looking a little bit too dry. Remember, he followed Kimiko into the shower 1512 (who needed a cold shower to wash out the toner properly 1511) So, if we're going to assume they had sex in the shower (after taking care of their respective ailments -Piro's back was all torn up from the glass as shown in 1512-) then I can only assume that Kimiko would have had Piro against the wall and not the other way around as Kimiko is WAY more dominate than he is, and I'm sorry, but that boy is not sexually assertive enough to put Kimiko on her back, from my perspective at least... I could be wrong, doubt it though.

This is not to say that Piro can't be assertive in general, he definitely can be when the situation calls for it... I remember the Anne Miller's incident very well.
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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by S1arburst » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:26 pm

alpha wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:30 pm
:lol: Looks like I have a pretty unpopular opinion.
I actually share your disappointment with Piro. I didn't have the guts to say so before, with this audience, but I've been feeling disappointed in him and his conscience since 1512 "which one?" Not only did Seraphim not seem to see anything wrong with sex at this point, but she seemed to be tacitly egging Piro on more than anything.
darrin wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:44 am
alpha wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:30 pm
sex without commitment? That just does not match with my read on Piro.
Where are you getting that "without commitment" is part of Piro's mindset or plans regarding Kimiko?

Pretty much everything non-trivial in the comic that's happened to Piro or been done by Piro, ranging from the benign to the catastrophic, has been directed toward getting closer to Kimiko, very rarely physically closer.

No, they haven't explicitly used phrases like "long-term" or "married filing jointly". But literally three chapters ago they were seriously discussing Piro trying to get a better (potentially much better) job than stock boy. If Piro had any other motive for establishing an actual career in Japan besides Kimiko, or if "I'll start working on my portfolio" was just a lie directed toward a one-night stand, then that certainly doesn't match with my read on Piro.
"without commitment" is exactly that; Piro and Kimiko aren't married, aren't engaged, and as far as I know neither of them has actually said to the other, "Hey, I'm going to stick around as long as you want me and do my best to help you." Piro in general seems to be a pretty honorable chivalrous guy, so I was kind of shocked. They have been through some pretty intense situations and care for each other, but I'd feel a whole lot better about them if they actually made a verbal commitment to each other. Easier to stick it out when the going gets tough if you've made a promise. I wouldn't want to see them run out on one another after being as intimate as to have sex. Both of them seem pretty prone to self-doubt, and I could see them leaving at some point down the road to "save the other person" from themselves.

As far as Piro's plans go, you're probably right that he totally has honorable future intentions, but who knows, he could still be fooling himself that the reason he needs a better job is to actually save money for plane tickets after beer money for Largo ;)
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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Roamer » Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:31 am

darrin wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:52 am
How the hell is it more of a "cheat" than the Chekhov's Gun schtick? Either it's two drinks here, or zero. Either way, if you're going to invoke the Name of the Ray, the first term you should be landing on is "epileptic trees", which is way higher on the list than either of those two. Piro actually suddenly being a womanizing casual-sex-without-commitment one-night-stander, with no prior evidence or precedent for this in-comic so far, is about the epilepticest tree I've ever seen, despite the simplicity of the description.
Okay, this is an awesome rant. Just have to say that. You're totally on point and articulate while clearly outraged by this whole idea. Respect.
darrin wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:52 am
When Asmodeus tells Piro to "make with the clicking", Piro adamantly refuses. Why?
Well, he, like me, might find Asmodeus personally as appealing as a cockroach. Which doesn't invalidate your argument at all.
darrin wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:52 am
Just friendly advice here: you guys are deep in Teddy Werebear territory at this point.
That's unfair...to Teddy. His rants are fun to read, if slightly one-note, and it's interesting watching the internal logic play out in his writing.

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Invisigoth » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:26 am

Piro has had other relationships in the past.

He's have some very bad relationships in the past in fact.

He started out trying to save Miho after Kimiko triggered a coronary event that nearly killed her (again)

It'd be useful to consider that he and Miho had attempted to flee the city and they were then punted back to the school of all places.

After all that, after breaking Largo's face when Largo verbally attacked him and denounced Miho Piro finds himself naked, in a love hotel with Kimiko with whom he most assuredly did spend the night bumpin' uglies.

Piro's honor is what's bothering him at the moment because this was something that he'd not wanted and not planned but hormones and drive being what they are, here he is.....

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by cidjen » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:54 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:26 am
Piro's honor is what's bothering him at the moment because this was something that he'd not wanted and not planned but hormones and drive being what they are, here he is.....
Not planned maybe, but not wanted? I don't think so, and not because of the previous Asmodeus roast.
If they haven't done 'that' yet I suppose it's because... Rubbing wounds on each other doesn't really work.... For either party ...
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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by darrin » Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:31 pm

S1arburst wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:26 pm
"without commitment" is exactly that; Piro and Kimiko aren't married, aren't engaged, and as far as I know neither of them has actually said to the other, "Hey, I'm going to stick around as long as you want me and do my best to help you."
"False dichotomy" is another phrase I deliberately avoided from the beginning in this thread so folks wouldn't go all drinking-game on me.

But there is a wide gap between "no feeling of commitment whatsoever" and "married or deliberately moving toward marriage".

"Committed toward attempting to build some kind of more-than-a-one-night-stand relationship" does lie within that gap, even if the attempt ultimately fails.
Roamer wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:31 am
That's unfair...to Teddy. His rants are fun to read, if slightly one-note, and it's interesting watching the internal logic play out in his writing.
I meant that only in the specific sense of "committed (ha ha) to a specific position independent of any in-comic evidence". I apologize for not making that clear.
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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by IrwinFletcher » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:42 am


1587 comics in 245 months is six and a half per month (a bit better than "weekly"), not one per month ("monthly"). So if I had the option, I guess I'd say, I'd rather people were able to count (to seven, at least)?

But really, the better answer is:
"I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a pen, and draw your own comic. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."
Look, I sympathize, I really do. As I've stated before, I had to put both my parents into hospice care at the end of their lives, and it was incredibly difficult to do.

But I still had the wherewithal to get up every day and keep pushing ahead with life.

Now not everyone's like that, and from comments made here and in the Kickstarter comments section by people who know Fred personally, it seems that even the slightest bump in the road of life causes Fred endless trouble.

And I know that it's not just the lack of updates since September. The webcomics industry has changed so much since Fred and Rodney first launched MT. You have to be out there on social media constantly pushing your site, and networking with other creators and doing anything to get your name and comic out there.

There just comes a time when you have to buckle down and Get. Things. Done.

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Eraden » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:17 pm

Considering the fact that this is basically free entertainment (although I have been busy trying to track down and buy all the hard copies I can find), I think our illustrious creator can and SHOULD be given as much slack as he needs. This has been one of THE MOST ENTERTAINING comic strips I have ever read. I am most grateful! Thanks Fred.

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:18 pm

Hope everybody had a Merry Christmas or what ever applies and that we will all have a Happy New Year once this dumpster fire of a year is past us... everybody but Miho, she stinks out loud.
:lol:

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Roamer » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:50 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:18 pm
Hope everybody had a Merry Christmas or what ever applies and that we will all have a Happy New Year once this dumpster fire of a year is past us... everybody but Miho, she stinks out loud.
:lol:
Considering her next conversation is going to be about why she was sleeping in Komu's hospital bed, it'll at least be an awkward new year. Maybe Junpei can find them all sleeping together, that should be good for double "T3h Awkward", as Largo would say.

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Invisigoth » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:22 am

Roamer wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:50 am
Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:18 pm
Hope everybody had a Merry Christmas or what ever applies and that we will all have a Happy New Year once this dumpster fire of a year is past us... everybody but Miho, she stinks out loud.
:lol:
Considering her next conversation is going to be about why she was sleeping in Komu's hospital bed, it'll at least be an awkward new year. Maybe Junpei can find them all sleeping together, that should be good for double "T3h Awkward", as Largo would say.
Eh, when you've been crucified upside down after being flogged by your rather pissed off grandmother I'm doubting you'd be going to the hospital for anything but treatment. Fortunately for Junpei Miho nearly killed his grandmother so the flogging was likely affected in his favor

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Roamer » Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:44 am

Invisigoth wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:22 am
Eh, when you've been crucified upside down after being flogged by your rather pissed off grandmother I'm doubting you'd be going to the hospital for anything but treatment. Fortunately for Junpei Miho nearly killed his grandmother so the flogging was likely affected in his favor
I wonder just how much you know that you aren't talking about. Of course, knowing a few professional authors, I also know that sometimes the characters take over inside the author's head and the story goes in random directions.

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Eraden » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:47 am

I was under the impression that Junpei's grandmother has a soft spot in her heart for him and it was his parents that were the hard-asses. Am I wrong?

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by tambo » Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:41 am

Eraden wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:17 pm
Considering the fact that this is basically free entertainment (although I have been busy trying to track down and buy all the hard copies I can find), I think our illustrious creator can and SHOULD be given as much slack as he needs.
In general, I agree with you, but there is a finer point to be made here.

Many webcomics, maybe most, are stand-alone experiences: three panels and a punchline. A lengthy, unexpected, and indefinite delay between strips is unpleasant because you want more of that type of humor, but that's about it.

But episodic webcomics require a commitment from the reader to retain plotlines and character development in their minds over time. The reward in doing so is the long-game payoff of connecting an event in strip 100 to an event in strip 300. And the danger in failing to do so, either due to loss of interest or simple forgetfulness, is missing those connections - or, worse, not knowing what the hell is happening in strip 300.

I started reading MT 18 months ago. I was intrigued by the characters, dialogue, and exquisite art style - but had no clue about the story or context. I read back about 500 strips (repeatedly, in fact), and then I only had a shadow of a clue. Names and relationships were still deeply puzzling. Then I read some character sketches and synopses of the previous 2,500 strips. And now I have only a mildly tangible clue, and I still mix up Mugi and Gumi, etc.

Currently, I have a lot of reading left before I might claim familiarity with the entire MT world. Having done at least some of the homework, I find it a little difficult to motivate myself to continue revisiting past strips... when future strips are dribbling out at the rate of one per month.

It feels a little like discovering the series Firefly in, let's say, 2014. Like, hey, here's this great thing that inspired a huge fanbase - but both the story and the fanbase have lost nearly all momentum. It's disappointing to join a community with dissipating energy. It ends up feeling more like cultural archaeology than a shared experience of cultural discovery.
Last edited by tambo on Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [1588] things left behind

Post by Invisigoth » Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:43 am

I made my remark based on things that I do know about the ninja as they exist in MT. They are not particularly nice. Consider Junpei's reaction to Meimi subcontracting the contract to neutralize Largo after being offered the contract by the ninja Grandmaster. He immediately assumed that Meimi intended to kill Largo. Also, the tail hunting story that so upset Yaku when she went to visit 8 tail grandmother with Mugi. Not only is there tail hunting among the kitsune but there are bounties offered on rogue kitsunes and collected by ninja. Instead of scalps the ninja take the tails.

So, Junpei being tortured brutally is quite possible and in fact rather likely within the basic ruleset of the MT universe. I just filled in the blanks for my entirely speculative post. Given Hot Ninja Grannies soft spot for Junpei the inverted crucifixion in combination with flogging and public humiliation is likely to be letting him off easy

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