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[1484] Desperate

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darrin
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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by darrin » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:31 pm

Initial B wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:45 am
However, if she really did want to live, then why didn't she just overpower Ninjagirl/Ninjama/Ninjagranny/Nabiki?
Having learned that Junpei really was trying to save her (and not kill her as she feared), she now regrets hurting him in her "desperation to live". For similar reasons she doesn't want to hurt Ninjagrrl just to save herself. But that's an intellectual decision. and her reaction to actually having the knife at her throat is much more visceral. Like any healthy living thing, her instinct ("desperation") to live is strong, but apparently not so strong that she can't suppress whatever non-mundane abilities she currently has access to. (Or to turn it around, she's still at some level convinced she "needs" to die, but not surprisingly still finds the prospect of actually going through it terrifying.)
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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:11 pm

There is no saving the damned, Darrin!
Vampires are monsters that must be destroyed... not girlfriend/boyfriend material that needs a little extra effort and work!

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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by darrin » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:06 pm

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:11 pm
girlfriend.. material
:?: Sorry dude, but I have no idea where you are getting any of that from anything I actually wrote. I'm certainly not "shipping" Miho with anybody, and not sure where you would get the idea that I was. (I may be a Miho thrall from way back but if Ray Kremer is right and Piro x Miho turns out to be Word of God then I promise you I will be at least as disappointed as you. Any guy who could turn away from this smile (panel 2) is an idiot. :lol:)

EDIT:
Vampires are monsters that must be destroyed
Also you need to watch Blood+. Bad vampires are indeed bad but the good ones are awesome. :lol:
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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by Patty Acer » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:15 pm

Invisigoth wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:41 pm
It's not a delusion when it's your story.
Except that every single character she's interacted with (other than Largo and the horde) actually wants her to live and has gone to quite great lengths to try and get that across to her but she keeps refusing to hear it. She has no reason to hate herself, hence the self-hatred is a delusion.

I will be fair and say that part of my problem with Miho's "I must die I must die" mantra has to do with my own viewpoint on life. I believe, if logic dictates that you're seeing something wrong, then you should change your viewpoint...and characters like Miho who wantonly avoid any and all logic as applied to themselves, drive me 'round the twist. I'm very much hoping Ninja Girl can knock some sense into Miho's head.

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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by darrin » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:22 pm

Patty Acer wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:15 pm
She has no reason to hate herself, hence the self-hatred is a delusion.
In 1405, at least given the assumption that she is telling Kimiko about herself, she claims (at least) indirect responsibility for the deaths of people who were trying to help her. In 1406 panel 2, she strongly implies this situation has recurred across her "incarnations", that "people she loves" tend to die (as a tendency, not a one-time thing). In panel 3 she is convinced this is exactly what has happened to Piro, that he has died because of her. (She's so shocked to see him alive in 1408 that she immediately collapses of a heart attack.)

Maybe not "perfectly logical", one could argue that she's not "really" responsible for all these deaths; but to the extent she believes she is, it's understandable or at least plausible she would feel some self-hatred as a result.
characters like Miho who wantonly avoid any and all logic
Her position might not even be "avoiding all logic" in this case. Depending on how many times she's "reincarnated" or whatever, and how many times similar scenarios have played out, she might very well have accumulated quite a bit of empirical evidence that "people she loves die in her story".
Last edited by darrin on Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by Ray Kremer » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:48 pm

darrin wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:31 pm
Or to turn it around, she's still at some level convinced she "needs" to die, but not surprisingly still finds the prospect of actually going through it terrifying.
Oh yeah. Miho's mindset hasn't really adjusted to the new paradigm yet, and she doesn't really know what the new paradigm is, either. She's terrified to die, terrified not to die.

Back when the issue was the fans of her character type discovering Miho herself, I wondered what that actually meant, what the genuine danger there was. There too, I think Miho didn't really know herself, except that it would have violated the Way Things Work. We don't know what form a fanboy meta divide by zero error would take, we just know it would be bad.
darrin wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:06 pm
Ray Kremer is right and Piro x Miho turns out to be Word of God
These days, who knows. Fred's long term plans tend to not actually last all that long.
Patty Acer wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:15 pm
I will be fair and say that part of my problem with Miho's "I must die I must die" mantra has to do with my own viewpoint on life.
Wanting to die and knowing that you are fated to die can look awfully similar to the outside observer. Even to one's own brain, a strong expectation and anticipation of something can play out pretty much the same as desire for it, regardless of whether that thing is bad or good.
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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by paarfi » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:23 pm

Fred has started working on the next comic. You can watch him draw it live on Twitch.
https://www.twitch.tv/fredrin
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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by Teddy-Werebear » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:58 pm

darrin wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:06 pm
Also you need to watch Blood+. Bad vampires are indeed bad but the good ones are awesome. :lol:
Dude... there are no good ones. That is all vampire collective propaganda to make it easier for them to exist and grab "fast food."

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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by darrin » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:05 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:58 pm
Dude... there are no good ones. That is all vampire collective propaganda to make it easier for them to exist and grab "fast food."
Nah this ain't that twilight shit, three episodes, give me three episodes then you can trash talk it if you still want, not before. Else you are missing out man.
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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by Yl33 D4 N00b » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:43 am

Teddy-Werebear wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:58 pm
darrin wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:06 pm
Also you need to watch Blood+. Bad vampires are indeed bad but the good ones are awesome. :lol:
Dude... there are no good ones. That is all vampire collective propaganda to make it easier for them to exist and grab "fast food."
Vampire Hunter D was OK....... ;)
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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by darrin » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:07 pm

Yl33 D4 N00b wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:43 am
Vampire Hunter D was OK....... ;)
<a quick trot over to wikipedia> I believe you. Or without even going all the way to Japan, Gregory Hines's character in the Blade series. I am really uninformed about the genre (was never really into vampires, was very surprised at how much I ended up liking Blood+, and I have to say Blood+ pretty much ruined all other vampire stories for me :D), but I would not be surprised at all to be told that the "someone with at least partial vampire blood is good at killing (bad) vampires" trope is both old and widespread.

That being said,
SpoilerShow
Saya is maybe different in that she is not partially a vampire, she's all vampire, the genetic identical twin of the (very tropey) "evil vampire queen" of the series. Her choice to help the humans and fight her "own kind" is entirely a moral one and unrelated to any issues of biological relationship (she has no "human" blood to draw on / lean towards).
Hmm, has this gone off-topic? Depending on how many share Teddy-Werebear's "Miho is a vampire that must be destroyed (regardless of anything she says or does at this point)" worldview, I guess it probably has. :) Sorry, I will shut up on the subject now (assuming Teddy-Werebear can refrain from harshing on my Saya :lol:).
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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by iffy » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:56 pm

Patty Acer wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:15 pm
but {Miho} keeps refusing to hear it. She has no reason to hate herself, hence the self-hatred is a delusion.
I'm not saying you're incorrect, certainly you are not, I'm just saying the situation here is perhaps a bit more complicated than just what we see and what we think about that short-term. There are other considerations present.
Wanting to live, being told she should by others, even she herself saying so and at times acting that way too. Yet not liking what's fated, being resigned to one's fate, having to deal with being an Analogue and all it entails; doesn't equal self-hate. And none of everyone else wanting her to live (or as she has explained, feeling a deep-seated demanding all-encompassing need for her to die) is an Analogue. So nobody else necessarily has any idea what they're talking about or have anything but perceptions. There may be nothing that makes them qualified to comment. Those needing the proper ending almost certainly aren't, because they are operating on even more pure basic emotion to the point of no cognizant thought to comment upon.
Miho's "I must die I must die" mantra
Not a constant one, and not just her either. There's an entire division of the police mobilized to deal with this crisis of her not being dead, various heroes and villains show up to do something about it, backup plans in the form of Ninjas (at least) pre-set to make that happen, and an ever potential large numbers of mindless mystical metaphysical powers to be created by discontinuity and a failure to have a proper story ending. One might agree that tearing apart the very fabric of reality is a bad thing in and of itself, especially if you're the one making it happen just to avoid something spoken of as distasteful and shown at least once as not permanent.
characters like Miho who wantonly avoid any and all logic as applied to themselves
Nobody else but the real thing probably knows what is logical as applies to the real thing. Or maybe it's better to say we not only know we don't have all the information available, we also know a lot of what we do have is vague and accidentally or purposely incomplete or misleading. We only have what it has been decided we are to be given.
Ninja Girl can knock some sense into Miho's head.
If Ninja Girl has any better insight (which she may indeed be, say higher up in the scheme of the remove the Analogue from story backup plan) perhaps she can. But from Kimiko's plans and Komugiko's request and what Junpei was doing, knocking sense isn't the goal, it's removing the scenario entirely, via substitution. Miho just needs to wait for what everyone else is doing to play out in that plot. Yet still as I mentioned, we might be mistaken about who has what answers or who is in control here. Seems a rather odd way for Miho to be hiding out waiting for other things that may not even be working to finish.

darrin wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:22 pm
she claims (at least) indirect responsibility for the deaths of people who were trying to help her. .... she strongly implies this situation has recurred across her "incarnations", that "people she loves" tend to die (as a tendency, not a one-time thing) .... she is convinced this is exactly what has happened to Piro, that he has died because of her.
She very much does those things, although for me, it's a lot easier to just ignore everything Miho says. That's even when it's not its usual incomplete indirect vague hints, since she seems to like changing things quite a bit in the few detailed bits of information she doles out. Oh, for one direction of partial example, Kotone's fate is to be rescued from execution only to be locked away, ruined and disgraced, with at least a hint of being with child. And so is fair game for any player that happens to pick the not particularly extensive or difficult dialog choices. Sounds like a lot of things including Pirogoeth in Endgames. Which might be a better story, unless it's laid out as badly as Largo did (well Erika is quite picky though). Yet even if better as a story, not as applicable to the version of the fable (or parable) she was weaving for Kimiko. And thinking Piro dead, for what reason, she got away after all, and she was the one they were actually after. Not that any of those things necessarily have anything to do with each other. Do they? Maybe that's what makes up not winning and not losing. If that's even important, whatever it means or might mean.

Not that I'm saying everything she says is a lie, I don't think it is and have no way to tell. It's that she appears to give information anywhere totally true or totally a lie, mostly is unverifiable even perceptionally. The truths between sort of true and entirely made up examples of what truth might be, and mostly specific to situation and combination of people. That it's all just part of stories, which we from our view aren't always on the same one as they are. Case in point might be as you pointed out, much (most) of what we know about Piro and Kimiko's current situation is nothing they are aware of. They're in hiding in car shut off from reality under blanket land, yet we can still only guess on of what we think they could know being what they actually do.
(She's so shocked to see him alive in 1408 that she immediately collapses of a heart attack.)
She's been building up to that heart attack most of the entire story line from the time he wakes her up in the apartment above Megagamers. She's huffing when Kimiko pushes her hard in reaction to that story the same way she's poking at a drunken large at the CoE when Piro and Ping makes their entrance. The state Miho is in by then (the ostensible get ready for heart to give out and die story is over state) could just as well have been triggered by just about anyone walking in. Although story-wise, the only reasonable person to walk in probably would have been Piro, where else would he go, Kimiko needed to see him about Sight, just as likewise the only perfect place for Yuki to "hide" Miho to begin with.

Ray Kremer wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:48 pm
These days, who knows. Fred's long term plans tend to not actually last all that long.
Throwaways about who we might love or hate or not, who.a X who.b happens or doesn't, what sort of control and powers who has when. Ah, characters determining things at the last second in that precious way they have. Plans have a curious way of adjusting themselves as situations ebb and flow. Which either way the rule probably applies, until story is drawn and dialogued and posted, plans might not matter much. At least until if and when they find themselves set into something more solid.

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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by darrin » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:31 pm

@Fred:

Sorry, just now noticed the typo in panel 3:
"it would be better" (missing "be")
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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by NinjaDefenestrator » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:44 pm

Welp, now we know there's a chance Ninjagirl is either mom or grandma. Should have figured; would a young girl of this generation insist on dressing Miho in fancy clothes and barely register when Miho fought her (although I suppose Miho could have been trying not to hurt her host like she hurt Junpei)?

Or I could be reading too far into it and Ninjagirl is just wiser than she looks.

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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by iffy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:55 am

It still isn't fully convincing Miho is anything but what she is in Endgames or more recently the day she thanks Largo. Yet it appears more and more likely she is not the same, as she continues to be mostly docile, meek, fearful, huffing and the few times she's asserted herself, unsure, even adrift. Although it wouldn't be all that surprising if she went back into the Necrowombicon the same way she left it, if only figuratively speaking. Still, something seems different, even if it isn't totally or clearly so.

Either way, Miho certainly looks as if she isn't really trying, is potentially outclassed, story or otherwise. All with some sort of background vibe akin to the day Meimi cheered up and revitalized Yuki, and the way Meimi looked. As if this is Junepi's mother behaving this way, for reasons. But at Junpei's behest somehow, on her own, as part of the crew in the backup plan to deal with the real thing? Seems like ninja-people wouldn't just leave things to chance, especially as concerns an Analogue, regardless of if she's only stashed away temporarily. Even if Miho is powerless, is as a class of entity still probably potentially very dangerous, similar to Erika and those like her, but more so.

Then again, maybe there's a very good reason Miho is being interrogated so very throughly. Perhaps the wrong reaction would have left her dead, or maybe there's another point to all this. Instead of determining if she's actually dangerous, clarifying that she's worth saving? Difficult to tell the illusions from the not with all the ninja smoke around.

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Re: [1484] Desperate

Post by Ray Kremer » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:36 pm

iffy wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:55 am
It still isn't fully convincing Miho is anything but what she is in Endgames or more recently the day she thanks Largo. Yet it appears more and more likely she is not the same, as she continues to be mostly docile, meek, fearful, huffing and the few times she's asserted herself, unsure, even adrift. Although it wouldn't be all that surprising if she went back into the Necrowombicon the same way she left it, if only figuratively speaking. Still, something seems different, even if it isn't totally or clearly so.
There's all sorts of Miho backstory that's been left aside or is yet to be explained or may never be explained. After Erika quit the idol gig, what was it that Miho did with her fans that exacerbated the chaos? What motivated her to run exploits that threatened to literally destroy the Endgames game world? Was the Necrowombicon look-alike book just some old thing she was keeping in the CoE basement?

We know that however much she didn't like her life, she was accustomed to it and secure in it. She had superhuman abilities and a ton of confidence. Now that life and all its security have been ripped away. And yes, rather than go boldly in to the unknown, all that confidence has left her.
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