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Visual Novel [renamed]

walkingeagle
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Re: Visual Novel [renamed]

Post by walkingeagle » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:24 pm

paarfi wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:29 pm
Fred does not "send" me anywhere. I answer questions here on my own hat. I'd like to think I'm helping.
Yeah except that you only have to step in because he won’t.

If “send” is inaccurate, how’s “require the intervention of”?

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cidjen
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Re: Visual Novel [renamed]

Post by cidjen » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:35 am

mmm [1417] :P (speaking for myself only, as to why I get involved) you probably won't understand.
Translation to polish
(Scanlations have now been deleted)

legitalltheponies
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Re: Visual Novel [renamed]

Post by legitalltheponies » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:55 pm

paarfi wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:18 am

People would be happier with an update now of "I haven't made any progress in the VN yet because of X, Y, and Z, I am really sorry." or whatever rather than having no update for some number more months to finally get an update of "Hey look, I finally got this significant step done!"
I did do exactly this for quite some time, and for exactly that reason. We did talk to Fred about the need to post updates, even when the news was not good. While he understands that intellectually, actually getting him to do it is an entirely different thing. It's not that he's trying to hide anything; he'd just rather work than talk about it. This is why you hear a lot more from me than you do from Fred, despite my limitations.
This isn't on you and you're well aware of it, but not updating does two things: it puts more pressure on him and we can't see what he's doing. Even if he's working hard and has a game plan going forward, but from here it looks like he isn't doing anything.
I have stopped doing this recently for several reasons. One of which is that those explanations produce a kind of fatigue. To quote walkingeagle from earlier in this thread: "Fred is in his 50’s, has health issues, parents, blah blah blah.". People have good reason to be unhappy about how the VN work has gone, and it is all too easy (if rather unfair) to view the reasons for that as mere excuses, especially when those reasons keep getting repeated in updates as a seemingly never-ending series of long-term ongoing problems. If y'all are tired of it, imagine how Fred feels.
Again, the best way to counter this is to post. an. update. Have someone else write it if Fred can't bring himself to do it. Also, I'm tired of hearing how unfair everything is for Fred. I get that he's struggling with life events and those piled up on him all at once, but people have variations on problems like his all the time while juggling regular full time jobs. None of this is unique to him and the man has been a black hole of self pity since the comic was in its infancy.
I'm not going to wait until "yay we have the VN done" before posting an update. But I'm also done with posting monthly updates that there has been no progress. When Fred can get back on the VN work (which likely won't be real soon), I will certainly post an update and let everyone know.
Okay, that's big news that we needed to know and not just in a forum post.
Again, the fundamental problem is that the VN work has gone so poorly. I get that, and y'all have every reason to be upset about it. I'm sorry, and so is Fred.
I don't think that you apologizing on Fred's behalf helping with any of the frustration we're feeling.

walkingeagle
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Re: Visual Novel [renamed]

Post by walkingeagle » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:10 pm

So correct me if I’m wrong but...

Fred prefers to work than to talk about work.

But he “can’t work on the VN for a while and likely won’t be able to for a while.”

So he prefers to work than talk... but he can’t work... and he won’t talk...

Do you seriously not see the problem with this?

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paarfi
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Re: Visual Novel [renamed]

Post by paarfi » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:53 pm

I'm sorry if this wasn't clear. Fred's plan (as he described in his May post) is:
1) Get the comic rolling [with his target of 4 comics per month]
2) Get the store shipping backlog taken care of
3) Get back on the VN
With all the problems he's been having the last few months, he hasn't managed the comic production that he owes the patreon supporters, and he's still not caught up with shipping backlog. Once teh comics are rolling again and the shipping is all done, then he'll have time to work on the VN in a serious way again. He had hoped to be at that point earlier in the year, but it didn't happen because of various life disasters and ongoing time-sinks.

When I said "likely won't be real soon", it was not some big secret revelation that was being hidden and now "Ah ha! The truth is revealed!" It was me seeing that comics are not yet rolling to level that Fred has promised the patreon supporters, and me seeing that the store shipping is not yet fully done. Hence (per Fred's plan), he still has stuff to do before he can get back on the VN work in a serious way.

I understand y'all are angry about this. I know it's not good enough, but he is doing the best he can.
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Concerned_user
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Re: Visual Novel [renamed]

Post by Concerned_user » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:01 pm

paarfi wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:53 pm
I'm sorry if this wasn't clear. Fred's plan (as he described in his May post) is:
1) Get the comic rolling [with his target of 4 comics per month]
2) Get the store shipping backlog taken care of
3) Get back on the VN
With all the problems he's been having the last few months, he hasn't managed the comic production that he owes the patreon supporters, and he's still not caught up with shipping backlog. Once teh comics are rolling again and the shipping is all done, then he'll have time to work on the VN in a serious way again. He had hoped to be at that point earlier in the year, but it didn't happen because of various life disasters and ongoing time-sinks.

When I said "likely won't be real soon", it was not some big secret revelation that was being hidden and now "Ah ha! The truth is revealed!" It was me seeing that comics are not yet rolling to level that Fred has promised the patreon supporters, and me seeing that the store shipping is not yet fully done. Hence (per Fred's plan), he still has stuff to do before he can get back on the VN work in a serious way.

I understand y'all are angry about this. I know it's not good enough, but he is doing the best he can.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the kickstarter for the VN come before he had Patreon? And also does it not seem silly to prioritize 4 pages of a comic per month to the tune of less than 2 grand for patreon supporters and not work on a projector that people already spent a combine 300k on?

Its like Fred wants to have the cake and eat it too. What you're saying may very well be the way things are and how he is thinking, but it is not reasonable, logical or responsible. And I wouldn't keep referring back to a tiny blurb in the middle of a rant to show he addressed or clarified anything in regards to the VN. He really needs some true friends to put him in his place and make tough decisions, instead of what appears to be nothing but enablers and excuse makers.

walkingeagle
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Re: Visual Novel [renamed]

Post by walkingeagle » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:34 am

You know what would really clear things up?

If Fred spoke for himself, and didn’t require a special time and auspicious portents and everything to be just right, to do so.

You know. Like everyone else does when they’ve pocketed 300k and have nothing to show for it.

shadowrunner23
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Re: Visual Novel [renamed]

Post by shadowrunner23 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:06 am

walkingeagle wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:14 pm
Even though the reasons DO get very blah blah blah, having them is so much more preferable than the current situation.

The main reason there is such anger is that y’all have given us nothing at all for over a year officially, and nothing unofficially other than a paragraph in the middle of other paragraphs, easily missed and not much info.

It’s the feeling of being ignored, that 300k was taken and no one cares if we sit here and stew about it for years at a time, that is the biggest problem imo.
Frankly, Fred takes his time. I'm not saying there isn't a communication issue, there definitely is, and I think they should at least make a "we're alive and working on it still" post every two months (i'd welcome that). I knew that the estimated dates were far too optimistic when I paid into the VN. I also realized something many here seem to have missed:
There was a great risk of the VN never being finished. The VN was ambitious on Fred's part, and i'm certain he felt he could manage it. Maybe that hasn't been the case. as is, i'm sure Fred has a list of things he would have done differently. The fact is, it was another kickstarter campaign. yes some of those work out great, but plenty of others failed even after the money was raised. Paying into the VN was like playing the lottery; there's no guarantee of a return.

If I may make a recommendation for Fred, Maybe drop the schedule down to 3 pages per month, and use that extra time to work on the backlog, then the VN. I'm enjoying the comic pages, but I think you may have set the bar a bit too high with the four pages and all of the other things that need to be done. If you need help, put out a request to the community. I have not given up on the VN, And as of right now, I do feel there's a good chance of it being completed at some point.
I also agree with Zagaroth, The more you guys get all angry, the less Fred is likely going to want to deal with it. So bolt a heatsink to your head, cool off, and perhaps provide CONSTRUCTIVE feedback, other than "we've put all this money in and we see nothing!"

Concerned_user
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Re: Visual Novel [renamed]

Post by Concerned_user » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:52 am

[/quote]

Paying into the VN was like playing the lottery; there's no guarantee of a return.

[/quote]

No, a kickstarter is not equivalent to playing the lottery. Just because something does not carry with it a guarantee, doesn't mean its the same thing. A lottery is based on the idea you will most likely not win. There is only a tiny fraction of a chance you could win in your lifetime. A kickstarter campaign is when funds are solicited and rewards and products offered in exchange. Sure there is a possibility the project fails, as many do. The point is how that failure is dealt with and conveyed to the backers. It is a legal contract between the creator who solicited the funds (Fred) and the backers (you and others).
People have a right to expect a full report from Fred indicating the current status of the project and cost breakdown so far and an honest answer to if they should ever expect it to be complete. That is his responsibility and he has not filled it. You as one backer and perhaps blind fan boy, don't get to decide for everyone that its just who he is to be irresponsible and everyone should accept it without frustration and move on. Some people perhaps put in a lot more money than you and rightfully want a straightforward answer.
Sure there are people who may toss around insults in their anger, and I think they are wrong to do so, but people like you are also wrong. You are at the other end of the spectrum, where you see nothing wrong with what has taken place.
Its gotten to the point where people just want the absolute minimum here. They don't expect a VN or even rewards any longer, just a breakdown of where the money went, and why things failed. Not a couple sentences hidden in a long rant either. Anything less is irresponsible and insulting on Freds part. Integrity matters.


Here is the terms of use taken directly from kickstarter:

the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers. Here are the terms that govern that agreement:

When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.

Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.

If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:

they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.

walkingeagle
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Re: Visual Novel [renamed]

Post by walkingeagle » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:22 pm

The more you guys get all angry, the less Fred is likely going to want to deal with it.
Ohhh, my bad. I thought we were talking about a 49 year old man with legal obligations to make what he was backed to make, not a potty-shy three year old.

You’re absolutely right. Instead of expressing our displeasure at 300k vanishing with no return, we should have realized it's just so impatient to expect even one chapter to play about half a decade after it was meant to be finished, or even a real update at least once a year. We should have swallowed hard and laid a few more boxes of pocky at the feet of the Altar of Gallagher-sama in the hopes that he’ll finally grow a sense of professional responsibility and/or the beginnings of a spine.

My bad.

ETA: If anyone wants to bitch at me about what I’ve said here, I’ve got a novel idea - instead of whining about how I’m so mean and it’ll hurt Fred’s delicate psyche, and how that’s somehow the reason he doesn’t give value on what he was backed for or update for YEARS despite practically no one saying a word for those years... instead of that... either tell me how I’m wrong without focusing on my tone, or go resume your reverent vigils in the hopes senpai will notice you. Because that’s clearly worked wonders so far.

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