Classic Tuesdays: Neon Genesis Evangelion, You Can (Not) Escape

I had expected that someone would have made the thread for this, since it supposedly was to start the other day, but I'll happily take up the banner for what is still to this day one of my all-time favorite anime series.

Part of that is probably because it was one of the first shows I ever watched on DVD and the first series I bought for myself. Kind of a weird introduction to the not-Dragon Ball Z anime world, but it managed to suck me in nonetheless.

The first episode, fittingly enough, probably serves as an outlet for why. A lot of people hate on Shinji Ikari. He's not really your classic mecha hero, obviously. He's a 14 year old boy who has serious abandonment issues, which worked as a bit of a reflection into my own psyche since I, too, felt very distant from my own father growing up in a household that separated when I was just three years old.

This is a bit of why I fell in love with Evangelion. While it was a deconstruction of a bunch of mecha tropes I wasn't familiar with at the time, it still functions to a degree as a deconstruction of familiar hero and heroine archetypes. To me, Shinji wasn't really a wimp so much as a young boy in a very, very difficult situation and trying his damnedest to do what he thinks is right. Maybe it doesn't make him very likable, when we kind of want to see that ass kicking right out of the gate, but it does strike a realistic chord.

How many people would really have the guts to get in that cockpit? I suspect it's a smaller number than would volunteer hypothetically. That's really all Shinji was asked to do, but that itself is a serious thing to ask of a child, to trust someone he barely knows and a father who he hates, with his life at a moment's notice, for the sake of others.



Anyway, I'm looking forward to actually seeing what AMC thinks of the series. It's something that shaped me as an anime fan from the very beginning. While I don't think it's a perfect series, far from it, it's definitely a classic and I doubt I'm the only one whose experience with it was so fundamental to how they view anime even to this day.

This post has been edited by VRMaster on May 10 2012, 07:27 PM

I think you downplay Shinji.
He was definitely not a wimp like the masses claim. He understood from the beginning that his father wanted to simply use him as a tool, and he refused to help. Sure, it may have been a scary thing, but just being used was another big factor in his refusal. He stood his ground from the beginning. However, Gendo was prepared and ultimately said that if Shinji didn't pilot the robot, he'd send some frail injured girl into danger. Shinji knights up and chooses to save the protect the damsel & fight in her place for someone he doesn't wish to.

Over and over and over.

Personally, as an 'open minded prude', I didn't really care for the whole concept of angels being the enemy...

This post has been edited by KILLelALL on May 10 2012, 09:51 PM

While I think he understood he was being used, I don't think that was as central in his initial refusal as much as fear of the unknown. He knew his father "needed me for something" from the very beginning, after all. Misato even grilled him on it before he got to the Eva.

"Why did you come then?"

Because, of course, his father needing him or wanting to use him is better than no relationship at all. His abandonment complex is severe. And he did not want to be tossed aside. I think that was part of his refusal in and of itself. It was a childish test to see if HE was actually needed. When he was not, when there was a spare, he seemed resigned to being left behind once again.

Then, the scene with Rei and he states his mantra of "I mustn't run away."

As much as I find the plot interesting and the deconstruction fascinating, it's the characters and their development that abide my interest even after all these years. And Shinji, with all his flaws and mental issues, is a very interesting character.

It's not that I disagree that he stood his ground, I just disagree with your motivation for his doing so. He wants a relationship with his father, even if it means being used. It's a big problem of his that he spends most of the series resolving within himself. But the fear, both of the danger and of failing, nearly overwhelms him until he sees this girl, clearly in a much rougher way, willing to fight. And so he gathers himself and sets foot on his journey.

(As for the symbolism and language, such as "Angels," I personally find almost all of it to be meaningless and honestly enjoy the show without trying to gather in all the extraneous information. It makes the plot a whole lot easier to digest.)

This post has been edited by VRMaster on May 10 2012, 11:17 PM

I dunno about the symbolism being meaningless. If you use the mythology from fiction (say from Sandman and Lucifer) and don't get tripped up by all the "OH HERESY" of tying it in with being a Christian, I think it adds to the story. It adds another dimension to Kaworu than "No homo" at least.

Back to the first episode, I think the takeaway is how awesome/insane Misato is. "Sorry I'm late" (monster is stepping a few feet away from them as she speaks). And the car getting flipped is pretty awesome too. I could do without Rei's injuries sparking a million disgusting fetishes, but her character certainly becomes interesting after like 5 or 6 episodes of nothing. The way they end up doing the sequence of Shinji's fight is interesting, dunno if it's the best choice or not. Finally, Gendo is still my standout "magnificent bastard" for any show ever, and that all starts here. "Get the only person I kind of care about killed just to prove a point to my stupid ass son? With pleasure!"

I do. Anno stated in an interview "lol I threw in some shit because it seemed cool". So whatever conclusions you draw- as least as far as the symbolism is involved- are all your own.

I got my first copy of evangelion on VHS. Fansubbed copies of copies of copies, etc. the entire right side was all rainbow-y. I got it, and my copies of trigun and Nadesico at the same time. Back then I didn't really know what it was I was getting into. I remember I enjoyed it because it reminded me of when I met Ray Bradubury, the author. Back when I was in the eighth grade, Ray Bradbury did a ... speaking thing at my school, and afterwords I got to shake his hand. One of the things he talked about was "not giving all the answers to the readers." That way each person can draw their own conclusions. Each person can take something unique to them away from that story. I think a lot of contemporary storytelling (ie movies, TV shows, some books and a ton of newer anime) don't follow this model; everything is spelled out, clearly cut and dry. There are no surprises, there are no revelations.

There are a few shows that I hate- not because of the content, but because of the fanbase. Evangelion is definitely one of them.

So, uh... on with the show, I guess.

Generally speaking I find that much of the symbolism in Eva falls into either of two categories:

a) Obvious
b) Bullshit

Something like the enemies being called Angels or the explosions being in the shape of a cross fall into the latter category. Frankly, most of the Christian symbols do and Rule of Cool governs much of its appearance, to offer up a feeling of something otherworldly and perhaps divine. It works to that effect, but beyond that I think pretty much all of that stuff falls flat.

That's not to say there isn't depth in Eva, I just think much of what is attributed to it is overblown by people trying to analyze every little detail and glean any information they can from pretty much everything. It's not that I'm religious or find the symbols offensive, because I don't, I just don't think that much thought went into their placement and so I place very little importance on them. Things like the Tree of Life in the OP, on the other hand, do have meaning that correlates to the story, but that meaning is mostly obvious.

I think the musical symbols, especially at the tail end of the series, are much more interesting.

Anyway, enough jumping ahead of myself. (Can you tell I get into this series yet?) Misato is an interesting character, even early on, with how reckless she is right off the bat. They underscore it a few times in the first episode and they'll do so again in the second, which is a weird foundation to lay for the show's field commander, but -- as with many of these early foundations -- builds into something much darker about her.

And yeah, Gendo is still THE Magnificent Bastard. I think his willingness to put Rei in that situation worked on three levels: 1) his indifference at her injuries despite what later episodes show about their relationship is a bit of foreshadowing, 2) the desperation of the situation requiring him to play whatever cards he has, and 3) confidence that he'd get Shinji to jump in for her maybe indicates he knows a bit more about the psyche of his son than he lets on, which itself could be considered foreshadowing.

This post has been edited by VRMaster on May 11 2012, 11:17 AM

Well wait. I said that it's not meaningless and your Bradbury paragraph seems to agree. What you're saying isn't there is a definitive interpretation thoroughly planned by the creators. And that's fair for sure. But I will say this show was a minor but interesting influence on a process that led me from being a die-hard Bible thumper to a more sarcastic but also more thoughtful atheist/agnostic. Basically the idea of the Bible as a story rather than as a gospel account of important religious truths was Shocking to me at the point I received this one.

Oh and a robot screams like a monster and then stabs another monster in the eye. Appreciated that part too.

Yeah, it's so obviously bullshit that I don't know how people can seriously make such a big deal out of it.


In any case, I remember watching the first episode and just thinking that Eva-01 going berserk was really cool.

As far as "meaningless, but well-placed symbolism" goes, I remember from the End of Evangelion movie, it was like, "Visitor parking, Floor 665, Employee parking one floor down." So the implication was that all the employees parked on floor 666. Useless, but when I realized it, I chuckled.

You know, I didn't actually realize this, but the OP of the show is enough to invoke a nails-on-chalkboard reaction.

Yeah, I remember that one. Well, more I remember the commentary on the EoE DVD and them making a hilariously big deal out of it. And pretty much everything else, cementing my views on most of the symbols in the show being mostly worthless at age 15.

Labcoats and swimwear make for an exciting combination.

I just enjoy (now) how every little item and branch of their unit and so on has this religious reference thrown in. They're using the Dead Sea Scrolls to tell the future! And the secret weapon is the Spear of Longinus or Spear of Destiny if you prefer! Which... apparently means Christ and the Romans were mecha judging by the scale of the thing. And the names of the computers and so on. It's like... the level of fan service thrown out in Cabin in the Woods or Super Smash Bros, but the sacrilegious version.

Speaking of which, should we discuss the Rebuilds at the same time or wait for the end of the series?

I think some comparative discussion wouldn't be bad, as long as the main thrust of the discussion was kept relevant to the series.

That's actually something that has bothered me for a while. A lot of shows give everything away on a silver platter, which is why I wanted Slayers to be the show of choice. The world was bigger than the show which allowed season 5 to finally reveal some things from season 1.
Then there is the whole thing regarding Xellos that's never answered but with hints...

Agreed. Things like this never really bothered me.
I was more-so bothered by the dialogue. The above was little different than FF7's Jenova, calamity from the skies, and that wasn't really something of religious meaning either, despite the names.

I never really put this together. I always figured he was such a horrible person and was surprised to see the glove incident. (And I am gonna stick with the belief that he is a horrible person and not just someone using a trump card even if it does make things make sense.)

*nod* This and two other episodes were the only ones worth watching IMO. <3 berserker mode.

This post has been edited by KILLelALL on May 11 2012, 05:34 PM

Not to nitpick, but episode one ends on a cliffhanger before Unit 01 goes berserk. The fight is a flashback in episode two.

This post has been edited by VRMaster on May 11 2012, 06:01 PM

Ah. Since I am not re-watching the show I didn't know if they showed the first part or not. (or if the second week already began.)

Okay, actually watched episode one finally. (Yeah, everything I've typed in this thread was me working from memory.) Some more or less random thoughts while watching the episode:

-- I didn't think it was possible for the ADV Films logo animation to induce nostalgia, but there you go.
-- The year is 2015 AD. It's kind of weird to think about how, at the time of the show's broadcast, that date was 20 years into the future, and we're getting pretty close to that point now.
-- Man, NERV has a lot of durable cameras. Every time one of them is blown up or disabled, there's another one in waiting. "Oh crap, that camera was just destroyed. Better turn on the one conveniently located right underneath the Angel that somehow didn't get blown up by the N2 mine."
-- Speaking of N2 mines, what a convenient useless weapon. That really is even less explained than the EVAs themselves. It's basically a nuke without the messy radioactive fallout. How do they accomplish it? Meh, who knows? Not like it does much more than scratch an Angel, anyway.
-- Shinji does have some snark in him when dealing with Misato, whose childish side comes out a bit in the first half of the episode.
-- And why does he know what a Geofront is? I know I've not heard it much (if ever) outside of the series.
-- Gendo does a lot of smirking in this episode. Well, he does it a lot in the series, but on at least three occasions in episode one he has that magnificent bastard look on his face. All is going according to plan. Shinji's life was, in large part, crafted for this very purpose. His psyche manipulated, his actions predicted, and of course, the reason why EVA-01 works when it hasn't ever worked before. Gendo is really something of a god figure in the series, especially given the rather heavy-handed parental themes.
-- Also, there are a whole lot of launchers in the launch bay, far more than will ever actually be put to use. Makes one wonder how many EVAs NERV planned to have.

This post has been edited by VRMaster on May 12 2012, 09:37 AM

What year was first impact again? Have we already been destroyed?

In Rebuild, they're capable of purging floors. Regularly during the fights, they elevate Evas into place throughout the city. I assume they have backup cameras underground in the Geofront to replace the ones that get nuked. Also, the helicopters and what not are cameras. They fly away before the N2 mine goes off, then return to see if they got it.

Well, it would kill any Angel outright. What it won't do is scratch an AT field. This is an important distinction for a certain later episode...

Misato is an Amber Alert drunk...

Remember the Earth's environment is proper fucked. So "a man made environment that looks like Earth used to" would probably be a big deal there. Also Shinji is a nerd and his main human contact was "teacher". Maybe teacher made a big deal out of Geofronts in anticipation of this day?

I need to look into getting my glasses treated with a material that makes them filled with blinding light to everyone else's eyes when I want to look sinister or mysterious.

I'm guessing Gendo forecasted a scenario where they lost a ton of elevators but no Evas due to a specialized Angel attack. The idea of losing to the Angels because of not having a working elevator sounded so stupid that he maximized the quota on the order form and claimed it was a paperwork mistake when Seele whined later.

I don't think Tokyo-3's Geofront is supposed to be a secret from the public. The actual nature of the cavern is and Nerv's work there is classified, but the new capital city for Japan having a Geofront for protection from further meteorites and nuclear wars is the cover story. It's a rarely heard term in real life because it's a SF idea.

Episode 1

When I reached the end of the series, I wondered about Shinji's quick glimpse of Rei standing in the street (then she was gone when he looked again), and what visions of Rei come to mean later on.

Later: there's Shinji, always looking at spilled bodily fluids in his palm.

I never noticed before the giant hand, seen through the glass and purple fluid, as Shinji studies the NERV manual on the escalator. A sly wink to the audience, promising things to come.

I've never thought of Shinji as a "wimp". He's a thirteen-year-old kid, when he's piloting the Eva, he feels its injuries as though they were injuries to himself. That's kind of a lot to expect from a kid. Even just riding around "piloting" the thing is a big responsibility --- who knows what you'll step on?

And why is the Eva unit able to move itself, breaking its restraints and lifting its arm --- all because Shinji is in danger?

Episode 2

This is nicely structured. At the end of the last episode you see the Eva getting smashed, and this episode begins with NERV picking up the pieces. The only odd note is Ritsuko's comment about only finding a little bit of the Angel's tissue. Did the Angel decide to leave on its own?

Later, the incidents after the end of the last episode are revealed.

PS., coming to this show right after a couple of months watching Card Captor Sakura, I keep expecting to see Yukito whenever Shinji opens his mouth.

PPS., the realization that the same actress plays Lina Inverse, Faye Valentine, and Rei Ayanami came as a marvel.

Megumi Hayashibara is skilled =)

Speaking of those things, there's actually quite a bit of that throughout the series. One of them also probably explains something most people don't understand about the show.
I wonder if there is a REALLY big one people don't notice, or rather, misunderstand at the very end.

As for this second episode, I rather enjoyed how it went. It left you interested & drew you in because you wanted to know what happened.

I remember why... but its been a while since I watched it, so I might get some of the facts wrong...

EoE.

I remember why, too. I was just putting myself in a first-time viewer's frame of mind.

Well, characters refer to it as "fifteen years ago," so yep, the world (almost) ended in 2000. A lot of post-apocalyptic stories also use 1999 or 2000, so I guess it's a convenient date for the end of the world?

Anyway, I watched the first couple episodes. I've watched the first Rebuild film twice since I last saw the TV series in... late 2009, I think. It feels like a lot of dialogue got cut out in the later version. When I first watched 1.11, I thought it generally improved on the original by streamlining it. Now I'm not sure. Shinji still annoys me, but I do feel more sympathetic towards him while he's arguing over whether or not to pilot the Eva, I think because of that extra time introducing him (or maybe I've just changed in the last three years).

I did like how they kept delaying actually showing the fight between the Angel and Eva until near the end of episode two. A small hint that action isn't going to be the focus for the series, perhaps.

I watched the second episode some time back but I forgot to mention it.
I always liked the shots of the city and the facility- in the series there's weird scaling issues so you really don't get a real "this facility is fucking HUGE" feeling, but you really see that in the movie. Part of establishing the whole "this place is fucking huge" is the number of launchers. Can you imagine a staging area with a long row of launchers for a robot that fucking huge? boggles the mind.

I think the launchers have different outlets on the city.

I think that was the meteor that killed off the dinosaurs. In EoE they said First Impact was the arrival of Lilith's black moon, which created enough ejecta to form our moon.

I'm supposed to watch episode 3 today, but I got shit to do, so I'll get around to it later.