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> [1332] - Eyes Other Way, "... or she will never forgive you"
Teddy-Werebear
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 12:15 PM
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Would you deny the chance that her last persona was that of a type of vampiric character before she got torched by Ed?
She has talked about all the different fans that has pulled her one direction or the other based on their desires. Is she lying about all of that? If so, what might be her angle with Piro by trying to convince him of "poorly used against her will" status?
You cannot have things your way with some questions while blythely ignore the further impl,ications and uncomfortable (to you) questions that arise from your alleged conclusions.
It is this inconsistant bend and flow of most Mihoists that makes their claims of proof ring so hollow in this bear's ears.
This feels like a primrose path Fred is leading us down in the story. He is dealing with real life concerns so difficult I can scarcely imagine just how tuff it is for him and his family. So the pacing will seem very off til it is all out and in the next book when we can all reread it through in one shot. Everbody is trying to be as patient as they can be as we all wait...
I think my focus has drifted here. I am just gonna post this and stop babbling for now.
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Invisigoth
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 12:32 PM
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Spoiler:

Miho's story hasn't "died" yet so she's not "died" yet. If it happens that she really "dies" then she will in fact become the Queen of the Undead. As I had noted in earlier threads. This is of course only a partial reveal of the nature of MT Zombies

This post has been edited by Invisigoth on Apr 24 2012, 12:33 PM
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Tangent
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 01:02 PM
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Teddy, let me ask you something: do you believe that when a person dies that if they weren't a good little Christian that their soul will burn in hell for all eternity without the possibility of parole? The reason I ask is this: what we have here is Tohya, rebooted. Restored to a save point, perhaps. As such, while she has the potential to become the "Queen of the Undead" (and I'm discounting Vis's spoiler above as misdirection and fred-herring) she is not in fact destined to this path.

Thus do you just damn her anyway because she has the potential of evil, or do you guide her to the Best Ending and her redemption or salvation? (And do consider... by helping Nanasawa avoid Ed and Dom and get to her publicity event, Tohya helped her (doing something she'd not done before) and thus started down the path of redemption before her "ending" via Ed.)
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paarfi
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE (Tangent @ Apr 24 2012, 01:02 PM)
do you believe that when a person dies that if they weren't a good little Christian that their soul will burn in hell for all eternity without the possibility of parole?
I know you were just trying to make a point, Tangent. But I think that's stepping into territory that might be better dealt with elsewhere. Just my 2cents.
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iffy
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE (Tangent @ Apr 23 2012, 05:49 PM)
You know the thread is going stale when even Iffy's posts are small in comparison to usual.
That... is it... Stale, no, wait, only one comic to work with... Or not many participating, or entirely serious, um... So, are you disappointed they're short? wink.gif

There are are enough of them and plenty are longer. And not much else to cover. Although


QUOTE (HakuRyoku @ Apr 23 2012, 05:54 PM)
So, what are your personal view on Miho's age, I mean, if you had to guess and all....
It's nothing specific, more a feeling. Right now, the feeling is more that the concept of age isn't in all ways (any way) actually directly applicable to her. Whatever it is she is (or isn't).

We can enumerate some possible answers to how that might be, but none really hold much weight yet. At least nothing to point out other than what we already have. In story strip about Miho's behaviors, extensively and excessively over-considered and over-documented in the forums and in the comic. Then that's all extrapolated to various random invented possibilities that could perhaps provide answers to things. If what we see is simply a host of sorts like a virtual projection of some sort of player/writer/author/illustrator/programmer, or a vessel for an intelligence or a set of memories. How about a clone of a DNA replication of a computer-generated blueprint of a lost elder race of empathetic telekinetic telepathic time traveling non-humans who have been engineered to appear human. Maybe something somewhat akin to any actor or actress playing a role, real and not real at once.

It's like Ping in a way also. We don't blink at an android being super strong and super intelligent, yet erratic and inconsistent in goals and behavior at times. Ping and Kimiko discussed that, it's been covered in other mini-arcs and in various ways and analogies and similes and parables. An android who's physically just about human and emotionally on par with a wide range of ages, both naive and worldly at once. And yet how old is she? As with that bottle of scotch we know how long has been aged, but know nothing else about age-wise. A clothed Ping appears outwardly as 14-24 (???) (and which physical form can and has changed drastically in short lengths of time) but in reality physically might be only a month or two old. Yet there are years or decades of construction when including experiments and prototypes. Many of the components have been centuries in the making, and much of the knowledge within goes back millennium. Does the concept of age have any bearing there?

And if Ping (or anyone else) was behaving as Miho is, wouldn't we say that person must have some ulterior motives that haven't been shared with us? And that all relates back to how we perceive Miho to be and how we've decided why she's acting the way she does and what she's trying to accomplish; those are all guesses as well. I've made it clear my opinion is that the bulk of the thread of the theme of the story of that aspect as displayed in the comic appears to involve Yuki just as much or more than it does Piro. The question is which one is being used or are they both. Potentially even neither. Plus, nothing says there's not multiple targets still. After all, it appeared Miho was thinking she could use (and then did use) Ping to play a game with both Piro and Largo at the same time.

And who knows what other games with which other person/people Miho was playing, too. Really we pretty much have been told that she is, remember what she says in 926. Or what she's thinking in 1122. What she and Kimiko talk about in the CoE, on the way to, at, and after Ikebukuro. Or what Komugiko says in 1254, etc. Of course that sort of thing all feeds back to how untrustworthy or vague to the point of meaninglessness much of what Miho says actually is, but some of that does have what seems to be potentially matching actions on Miho's part, to a certain way of thinking. Which all points to discussions of Miho's age based upon how she acts; tells us nothing. Less than nothing, it's abstractly distracting enough to be anti-knowledge. Sort of like that emotional vampirism thing used as metaphor.

So like a lot of other things, we can't really guess well as to exactly what and how when it comes to Miho's age. To explain why Miho is older than she looks or the same age as a bottle of scotch or a "zombie" or immortal or was vat grown a few days ago or was zapped into existence 5 minutes before Yuki "found" her. It's like a "big reveal" in that we don't get the entire thing or get it explicitly; there's just another more possibility/probability in an already overcrowded set of mixed up ones of unknown importance and unknown applicability. While it may seem (or even be) obvious to those who have participated in some large part of the back-stage process, it's pretty much impossible for those people to un-know or un-learn and be back in the realm of "infinite possibility" with everyone else, that place where everything is just a murky blur. A 'once you know the magic trick, you can't believe the audience watching it doesn't get it' sort of thing. There's also some aspect of not logically comprehending ones own inability to separate certain missing bits and hence discern which is true valid real objective. Discriminating those bits being filled in with perception, from what you've been told from what you've assumed from what you've got wrong from what you don't have from what you don't know. If we just work from the comic, we have plenty of information, yet almost all of it is based upon what Miho has said, vaguely, and internally often inconsistent.

Aside from whatever happened with Meimi and whatever happened with Junko whenever those happened, and whatever went on with Largo and the Necrowombicon in the surreal chapter zero, etc. There's that one another thing. Something, went on with her and Piro during Endgames some time ago where they chatted about certain things and exchanged certain pictures, which as we've been told were mostly/in large part a lie/misdirection/untruth. The entire subject we've been dancing around this chapter to great extent but as of right now is still just pretty much where we were. (We are in the middle of it, so of course) The information on all that is really only from the viewpoints of the 'untrustworthy' participants. Or from the assumptive conclusions of an immature inexperienced third party, that only has some of the selected confused obfuscated material, and who didn't exhaustively investigate it. In the end then, we're still moving along the showing of what's up with Miho; so we don't have an answer just yet. Just a limitless number of guesses about appearances that are known to be deceiving.



QUOTE (Teddy-Werebear @ Apr 24 2012, 01:15 PM)
It is this inconsistent bend and flow of most Mihoists
In large part we can probably blame that on the inconsistent bend and flow of Miho. Or at least what seems so from our vantage point (in the cave, out of the cave, what have you.)
QUOTE
that makes their claims of proof ring so hollow in this bear's ears.
We'd expect that; what proof is there that we have anyway.
QUOTE
This feels like a primrose path Fred is leading us down in the story.
Ah, but isn't it?
QUOTE
Everybody is trying to be as patient as they can be as we all wait...
Patiently waiting is the thing to do after all. Although some are not waiting and some are less patient than others.


QUOTE (Invisigoth @ Apr 24 2012, 01:32 PM)
Spoiler
That changes somewhat drastically if you assume just about everything about Miho is either hidden or false. Then there's always the possibility what the magician has divulged is itself just another misleading trick where what's seen is not the truth on yet another level.

Although some of the zombies are a lot like Miho herself. We don't know who or what they are either. Just that she "controls" some megahollywoodland-style to some extent somehow. It's just altogether almost like we can't trust anything Miho says or does, and need to go with how others describe her. Here on the forums, maybe not so much. Comic, pity they're all over the place there as well. Ibara, Ed, Dom, police/ASF interrogator, Junko, Ping, Largo, Piro, Erika, Kimiko, Junpei, Masamichi, Serpahim..... Well some have failed to describe her, haven't they. Really not interacted much with her, either.

As far as that goes, isn't it curious how Seraphim and Miho appear to be working together right now. Agreeing that Piro is using totally skewed ultimately erroneous 'logic' to get to completely wrong (potentially practically unimplementable ineffective) conclusions, unspoken on the same wavelength, both almost as one in a number of ways.

Say, where did that conscience get to, anyway.
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Teddy-Werebear
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 10:28 PM
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Cute Tangent. dry.gif
You weave a robe of zealotry about me because you have no steady ground from which to challenge my points of order.

rolleyes.gif Trusting what WK says is like taking the scorpion's word it will not sting you if you give it a ride across the rushing river on the top of your head.

Ify is approaching the bear in nuetrality... "Damned nuetrals! You never know where they stand!"
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Tangent
Posted: Apr 25 2012, 05:19 AM
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It's not zealotry to believe something. It's zealotry to force it down other people's throats. You're no zealot. (A patriot, but not a zealot.)

You've already stepped into the unsteady ground from which your arguments are not immovable. You've already stated this Tohya is not the Tohya you hated. And I will admit, you were right. That Tohya DID have a bond to the Zombies. But this Tohya has shown that while she has that potential, she has not yet started down that path.

So then, why hate her? Why insist she is a zombie-queen?
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Teddy-Werebear
Posted: Apr 25 2012, 03:28 PM
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No. I am currently evaluating her this chapter.
The crux is that she has memories of her last incarnation, form, trope, template, persona, character... whatever term works for you. Did she have free will in the previous one... all the others? Does she have free will now? Did she ever have free will?
Most everybody will say yes to some extent or another and so do I. That being the case, how much of her previous shades remain and do they hold sway?
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iffy
Posted: Apr 25 2012, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Teddy-Werebear @ Apr 24 2012, 11:28 PM)
Ify is approaching the bear in nuetrality...  "Damned nuetrals!  You never know where they stand!"
Oh, hasn't it been clear we often generally agree (in direction if not extent) on a number of things? Well specifically, that Miho is up to something, and it may be either from evil or for evil or both. If anything any disagreement would be over if evil how evil why evil, not a disagreement that she's got some sort of interfering and manipulating going on.

An opinion on Miho then. We don't know if she's "human or alive or if she even really exists at all" but it's pretty clear there's ulterior (unspoken, hidden, unclear) motives here, and very few narratives that fit into the current situation and behavior to explain what those are. She's certainly never stated any of those things.

To topic-ize today so far, she's leading Piro towards something, but being in the middle of everything, it's unclear why exactly. It could end up to be for her, and end up fitting some of our theories about what she wants out of it; but so far she hasn't told us what she wants out of it or why.

Sure, Miho complains about them putting her together, but not specifically and directly what bothers her about it why, or what she plans to do about it, or what would be preferable to her.
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Ningen
Posted: Apr 25 2012, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (Teddy-Werebear @ Apr 24 2012, 12:15 PM)
Would you deny the chance that her last persona was that of a type of vampiric character before she got torched by Ed?

A persona I have no problem with, and do not deny at all. She is also a selfish manipulative bitch on occasions. That doesn't make her "really" a dog.

laugh.gif
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Invisigoth
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 06:09 AM
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QUOTE (Teddy-Werebear @ Apr 25 2012, 04:28 PM)
No.  I am currently evaluating her this chapter.
The crux is that she has memories of her last incarnation, form, trope, template, persona, character...  whatever term works for you.  Did she have free will in the previous one...  all the others?  Does she have free will now?  Did she ever have free will?
Most everybody will say yes to some extent or another and so do I.  That being the case, how much of her previous shades remain and do they hold sway?

There's no such thing as Free Will

This post has been edited by Invisigoth on Apr 26 2012, 06:10 AM
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JaAchan
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 11:30 AM
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QUOTE (Invisigoth @ Apr 26 2012, 06:09 AM)
There's no such thing as Free Will

Sure there is. After all, there is Free Willy. But there's no "why" in life. So, Free Will.

QED ^^
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iffy
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 12:03 PM
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Free will? Out here, or in there, or both, or neither? Without getting too philosophical or too sophist about things, it all depends on if we want to be literal, literary, or meta about it or not.

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Tangent
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 12:44 PM
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There is actually a way for there to be prescience and free will at the same time: in this case, prescience is the knowledge of ALL potential alternative futures caused by all potential actions. Though technically I suppose you can be prescient by only knowing all possible actions at each specific point in time, so you don't know all potential realities at once but rather the branching effect from all the potential decisions. Which is a sizable magnitude smaller, though still so huge as to boggle the imagination.
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paarfi
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 02:12 PM
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More importantly, why hasn't my nekomimi miho tshirt shipped yet? I know Fred's at Acen, but couldn't he have created a clone to teleport back to the warehouse so it could ship my tshirt? And while he's at it, another clone could have have teleported back home to work on the next comic.

I demand more teleporting Fred clones. user posted image
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Tangent
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 03:29 PM
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That's not a good idea, paarfi. Using prescience, I found that even the inclusion of one additional teleporting Fred clone would end up resulting in the extermination of all catgirl life on the planet with the total loss of catgirl cloning technology. Two teleporting Fred clones would eliminate all cute animal pictures from the Internets, resulting in a massive slowdown of the Internet. And... well, you don't want to know what happens with three teleporting Fred clones. sleep.gif
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iffy
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 03:29 PM
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Free will essentially means at least some leeway in the ability to choose, but that's always under some number of limited choices. The potential choices themselves are not just limited in general, they are even more limited if one doesn't wish to get hurt or worse. If one takes the potential social and legal repercussions into account. If one behaves rationally and logically. Although yes, free will also allows you to choose things that may kill you or may not turn out anywhere like what you would hope. Trying to breathe water or fly without the aid of a device. Choosing things that require certain actions and behaviors on the part of others. Free will doesn't require knowing anything though. Or that any risks are taken into account. It also lets one gage the risks and then ignore them. In short, a person with free will can in theory try whatever he wants to, even if she knows nothing about it and it has zero chance of success. In practice, it doesn't work like that exactly of course. So we could say that you can't really realistically sanely choose to do something "you'd never do" but beyond that, anything you might possibly do (virtually no matter how small the chance) is fair game.

Prescience, that's knowing things before they take place, and really, before the things even exist. It's not being aware of or caring about most every single thing that might possibly happen. It means you pretty much have to know what will happen. None of the things that don't happen are even under consideration then. It doesn't require free will (or vice versa.) But if you have free will, you could be prescient about something good and not do it or about something bad and do it anyway.

The illusion of free will and / or prescience though, well. How about an idea of a general way the people involved or people in general will likely think and act in a given situation? If you've an idea of a general goal and necessarily at least some measure of control over the background processes. You wouldn't necessarily care how (or even what) happened at any given node, and might not even have any emotional care or physical sway at the final way things played out. If you're really good at adapting and adjusting to a situation and you're part of the control mechanism by being involved, and appear exactly like a random participant, you could very well be able to adjust on the fly to push things a certain way though. If not to it, at least towards your desired outcome. If you even have a desired outcome that is. After all, in this case for example, Miho or Piro might just be reacting to the situation or the emotions and has nothing in mind, just rolling with it. Has no idea what might happen and doesn't even care. Well, in Miho's case, she did tell us she had to play a game; but who'd believe her anyway.

Yet if the participants all think they had all the choices, while another seemed to know everything that was going to happen before it did and the participants believe that. Everyone's happy. Free will, prescience, the illusion of same. (We obviously have that sort of situation here, but tthat's the same trivially boring sort of an answer as exactly how old Miho is.)

How about this though. Piro and Largo didn't meet Miho in Endgames. They didn't find her and she wasn't looking for them. Miho is Endgames. We're in it still. And no one is the wiser. (It's nothing at all and everything at once until the box is opened. The box with megatokyo's 'zilla in it.)

Then we've got Piro here today being konked in the head. Recently he doesn't seem to particularly care what happens or why. After all, he might have even been in love with whatever he thought moh was or might have been; existing or not, male or female or both or neither, computing device or imagination. Lord knows most anyone here would jump all over Ping even knowing she's just an android and Piro turned her down too. And cavorting around in the bathhouse with Miho but doing nothing, which is the same thing he did last night with Kimiko. Fear of old old old materials of a trick, an illusion that never was, on a laptop that doesn't power up, along with stories of a long-over MMORPG allegedly supposedly possibly. Why, he doesn't even seem to care about becoming a famous artist "idol" type himself. All of which is largely in opposition to the drawing of Kotone he obsessed about giving to Kimiko no matter the cost and how much her feelings were of a concern to him and whatever it was that used to exist with Miho and so on.

Getting your priorities on track, or insanity? How the heck did we get to the point where Largo is well adjusted and has the girl and Piro is following Miho around aimlessly doing nothing rational? fredrin was right of course. There's something very odd about Piro's world.
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Technetium
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 04:11 PM
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starting to wonder if this comic is going the way of applegeeks... this is the longest time between pages I can remember (almost 1 month), and no word on the front page about anything keeping fred from working on the new one. Anyone know what's going on? It would be a shame if the comic ended like this.
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Tangent
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 05:46 PM
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It's understandable that Piro is having girl problems and Largo has a girl who is happy enough with him. Just because Piro knows more about girls than Largo doesn't mean he'll have luck with women. It just means he has a better handle on what's going on and when it's going bad.
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paarfi
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE (Tangent @ Apr 27 2012, 03:29 PM)
Using prescience, I found that even the inclusion of one additional teleporting Fred clone would end up resulting in the extermination of all catgirl life on the planet with the total loss of catgirl cloning technology. Two teleporting Fred clones would eliminate all cute animal pictures from the Internets, resulting in a massive slowdown of the Internet. And... well, you don't want to know what happens with three teleporting Fred clones. sleep.gif
Yikes. Well, even if it weren't for those horrors, Fred clones might not be such a good idea anyway. I can see them sitting down together, one Fred complaining about how much his art sucks and the rest nodding in agreement. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (Technetium @ Apr 27 2012, 04:11 PM)
this is the longest time between pages I can remember (almost 1 month), and no word on the front page about anything keeping fred from working on the new one. Anyone know what's going on?
My guess is it's the usual stuff, plus a little more. Jack takes a lot of attention. Sarah is still seriously ill. They've been hitting some cons recently, and that takes both prep time for merchandise as well as a lot of travel time. But really, until Jack starts doing a full day of school and Sarah's health improves (as we're all hoping it will), the slower and erratic update pace is probably just the way it's going to be. Fred's not happy about it either, but it is what it is. Real life is like that sometimes. sad.gif

Edit: Fixed "Jake" to "Jack". I'm starting to sound like my grandmother -- mixing kids names up. dry.gif

This post has been edited by paarfi on Apr 28 2012, 04:11 AM
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Tangent
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 08:53 PM
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Actually, paarfi, the worse part was the Twilight sequels (to the existing four books) that Fred-clone six was illustrating. sleep.gif

This post has been edited by Tangent on Apr 27 2012, 08:53 PM
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Teddy-Werebear
Posted: Apr 29 2012, 09:19 AM
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Ify as a Sophist... it explains so much. I do not know why I did not see it before you pointed it out. And I still remember a bit about the Socratic Eulingous from my philosophy class at good olde PSU. tongue.gif
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iffy
Posted: Apr 30 2012, 04:20 PM
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There are plenty of people willing to give out "answers" to others. The only answers currently that are of some real merit, perhaps, are the ones arrived at by the participant herself. No person in or out of the walls has the objective answers; there aren't any. There is only the possibility some may be shared with us at some point. This goes all the way up and down the chain until things are finalized in print. Until then, they exist only as possibilities.

That makes everyone's opinions of about equal value -- only of worth to themselves, and to some extent, to those that hold similar views. In as much as multiple people can agree that this liquid {points to liquid} is thin, blue, sweet and not much suited for painting the fence versus those people {points to other people} who agree it's thick, green, sour and excellent as both a desert topping and a car upholstery cleaner.

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arbalest1977
Posted: Apr 30 2012, 08:19 PM
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I just have a question. I used to read Megatokyo every week so I understand the monday, wednesday, friday release schedule was iffy at best. This never bothered me because Fred is doing this for free so any schedule he choses is fine. Over the past couple years since my son was born my reading has slacked off quite a bit. It would sometimes be months before I could sit down and catch up. I noticed that over time the number of comics I was reading to catch up was getting fewer and fewer. I knew with how erratic the schedule was to begin with and the addition to Fred's family I just assumed he just cut back to a once a week thing. Which as I said before is his choice and fine with me. But I've been checking back for what seems like a month now and no updates what so ever. Is the release schedule now once a month? If so when are the comics released? that way I can just check in on that date instead of constantly checking and being disappointed. I'm still a big fan of Fred's work and look forward to seeing where he takes the story (though I liked Miho's character better the way she started out, now she is starting to look and act like a generic "cute love interest" type character instead of a unique individual. just my opinion.) So thanks in advance for the help in finding out when the updates are (yes I understand its not a set in stone schedule but I missed the announcement that it went away from 3 times a weekish.
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Posted: Apr 30 2012, 08:43 PM
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Fred has been rushing around to several conventions in his area to try and drum up business for the business aspect of the comic (ie, selling t-shirts and merchandise), while also caring for his son and wife (who has had her cancer relapse). He's actually started work on the comic again now that the recent batch of cons is finished.
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