Trayvon/zimmerman Issue, or racism in every direction

Hey guys! Since Megatokyo Forums are my own facebook/twitter rant space I wanted to remind everyone of that shooting in Florida.

For those that don't know - Zimmerman shot an unarmed 17 year old Trayvon while Trayvon was kicking his ass. With Florida's self-defense laws Zimmerman shot Trayvon in defense. This brought about the wrath of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton (of course). Zimmerman (half-hispanic) represents all those racist white tea-baggers that believe in the second amendment as their right to shoot anything that moves. Trayvon (after finding his facebook) is then shown as a typical black gangbanger/thug for the crime of posing on facebook (he should of tried the duck-face). So yay we're all racist!

BUT before I get to that I have a simple question/racist grenade: why is it that a black teenager gets shot and the whole country gets pissed off but a white college student gets capped and this isn't even front page news?

on racist people it seems lots of people are mad that the Hunger Games had a black character when it was clearly stated in the book that she had dark skin.
link

I wonder why this needs its own thread.

Because my livejournal wasn't getting enough views or whatever system they have.

The 'newsworthyness' differs in that in the case of the Miss State shooting, iirc, they have a suspect in custody
(or two), and regardless, it is an ongoing investigation. In the Martin case, the person that actually shot Martin was not held for any length of time, not drug tested/alcohol tested, nor was a background check run, and the case was essentially shelved by Sanford PD before all the hooplah was made about it.

So really, it wasn't the supposed racism of the shooters/victims in either case, but the actions of the police involved that generated (or in Miss State case, did not generate) the initial buzz. If Sanford PD had not initially shithandled the whole event, then the Martin Case would still be tragic, sad, and have some uproar, but would not be as egregiously big of a deal (probably).

...I mean we have a perfectly good thread containing stupidity over there. Why generate more?

Manual is right where the big issue is the way the police handled it. Investigators and senior officials should have recognized the situation as "potentially explosive" and handled it properly because now we don't know what happened beyond some guy shot an unarmed kid.

This post has been edited by Tomar on Mar 27 2012, 07:55 AM

You know, on a semi-related note, wouldn't this thread be better off in the Party System forums?

If my hunch is right, it'll end up a lot like the Atheism-Debate Thread, and turn into another political battleground between the two usual MTF tribes...

That said, to be related, I agree with Manual. From what little I've read, most of the bad feeling at first came from the way the case was handled, and the hints of racial tension seeped in later.

Now, if I read the headlines lately, right, there are claims that the kid who was shot may have attacked first. I don't know, since I'm on my way to work, I can't really confirm at the moment either. Maybe trawl MSNBC.com? I think that's where I saw it...

Concerning the point of why didn't the police run a background check on Zimmerman, from what I have read in the various articles the police had already run a full background check on him recently because he was in the process of wanting to become a police officer. As to why the media is trying to create a frenzy with the Martin/Zimmerman issue, it's been a while since they had a Bernhard Goetz type story to run.

So why does this need another thread?

In before QQ white people, everything is racism against you!

Also in before white people or Asians on this board go and QQ about reverse racism despite the fact that they still clearly benefit from white/Asian priviage because they magically get MOST the honors classes and jobs even in situations where there's a just as qualified POC available.

Also also in before someone on this board says there is no such thing as reverse racism. Black people can beat up whites and Asians while screaming racist epithets and it won't be racism because backs are the one-down power dynamic. Racism only exists when a privileged group fucks a less privileged group.

Also also also in before someone on this board hints that racism is ONLY hostile, there is no such thing as beneficial racism (or beneovalent sexism for that matter). Rock on wiggers and wapanese.

Also also also also in before someone misses my point and thinks I'm being a racist scumbag that's against acculturation.


This post has been edited by harahara on Mar 27 2012, 12:34 PM

Personally, I think they are both stupid people.

Trayvon was suspended for possession of marijuana, and probably attacked Zimmerman when he wouldn't leave Trayvon alone. Regardless of how much someone is annoying me, I wouldn't attack them unless I felt genuinely threatened, but it sounds like he had the right to just walk away and ignore him.

That said, Zimmerman obviously did not back off from following Trayvon around, despite being told numerous times by the 911 operator that he should do so. Zimmerman also escalated the situation to deadly force when he came under attack by Trayvon.

So really, they are both wrong. The situation was unnecessarily escalated, and Zimmerman shouldn't have been allowed to have a firearm, but Trayvon shouldn't have attacked him.

I know weapons don't kill people, people kill people, but stupid people shouldn't be allowed to have weapons in the first place, especially when they can't exercise control. This is why I don't like weapons in the hands of civilians, because they can't exercise discipline and don't have the knowledge to read whether a situation dictates the necessity of deadly force.

Personally, I don't see racism here between the two individuals. Stupidity, certainly. But not racism.

Now, as for how the police handled things or their handling of the issue being racially-motivated, I cannot really say. If they did not follow certain protocol when it came to investigating the situation (i.e. checking Zimmerman for drugs/alcohol, etc.) then that of course needs to be addressed, but honestly, I think this is going to come down to Zimmerman pissing his pants like the coward that he was after getting his ass kicked by a high-schooler and shooting Trayvon because he was so scared that an unarmed kid was going to kill him.

Also, Obama's really stepped in it by calling this a national tragedy.

9/11 was a National Tragedy.

This is stupid people being stupid. Hardly comparable.

I'm with you here.

I'm not with you here. Why should all civilians suffer for the dumbasses? Why should a responsible civilian be denied the oppurtuntiy to defend themself?

And there's been plenty of times that military men loose control as well.

Also, one last thing, Trayvon may have been in the right when he attacked Zimmerman. It's not really clear who attacked who first.

Suspicious of Martin as the teenager walked inside the gated community he was patrolling on Feb. 26, Zimmerman followed him in his SUV. He called 911 to say Martin, who was walking in the rain to the home of his father's fiancée, looked as if he was up to no good because he had pulled the hood of his sweatshirt over his head. The 911 operator told Zimmerman to stop following Martin and await the arrival of police. Zimmerman ignored that order.

At some point, he got out of his SUV and shot Martin. Zimmerman claims he used deadly force only after being attacked by the teen. Phone records show Martin was talking to his girlfriend seconds before he was shot. The unnamed 16-year-old says Martin told her someone was following him. Then she heard a man demand to know what Martin was doing in that neighborhood before the cellphone went dead.

source

This post has been edited by harahara on Mar 27 2012, 01:16 PM

Setting aside the situation, the problems appear elsewhere. Why did the police automatically believe the survivor? Ultimately no one but Zimmerman knows for sure what happened where even he may not know for sure but it should not be ignored he has the best reason to spin his side of the story. Not even approaching CSI level of investigation there are enough questions about the Zimmerman's side of the story that it would have caused an investigator to have doubts. So far people aren't getting that vibe from the police which is what is causing a lot of the worries.

I will not be surprised if people dig into the backgrounds of both Martins and Zimmerman that they find both were not saints. I will not be surprised Martins is more like kids found around the nation who get into trouble and dabble in stuff kids shouldn't be into. I will not be surprised Zimmerman is overly paranoid or exhibits some behavior that is borderline paranoid and manic. None of that matters to the investigation that should have happened just on the facts of the event. Right now the police appear incompetent or don't care or worse. That is the big problem.

ps. Did Obama call it a national tragedy? I guess I am listening to wrong (or maybe correct) news.

This post has been edited by Tomar on Mar 27 2012, 03:07 PM

What does that have to do with the situation at hand? :v

And what Tomar said at the end.

...

This is where it gets tricky because he was (supposedly) being attacked. Therefore one could argue that the force was justified with Florida's stand your ground law even though zimmerman was an idiot who tried to play wannabe cop and put himself in a dangerous situation.

The main point of handguns is self-defense and one can't really be expected to know what to do when on your back getting your ass kicked by a thug with no one helping you (yes again he was stupid for putting himself in that situation). Truth be told I would probably do the same thing if I had someone slamming my head into the sidewalk. It's a little impracticable to brandish a firearm and yell freeze when someone is curb stomping your face into the ground.

I also am going to disagree with you on the allowing civilains weapons part and the military knows better than civilians on use of force part. Just my opinion.

Didn't you know? Smoking pot means you're a pedophile gangsta.

I guess the point is Trayvon wasn't exactly an angel prior to becoming an angel even though his fanbase make Trayvon out to be the nicest teenager since Jesus Christ.

Not saying you deserve to get shot based on a bad rep.

Of course you're not saying that... because it's a nonissue.

The only thing that matters is an armed neighborhood watchmen confronted an unarmed teenager.

@errantrogue: I would have thought being a creepy adult who is obsessed with kids wandering around their neighborhood would be more of a qualification.

Who again was beating the piss out of that armed watchmen - who was alone at night and panicked. Not always justifiable to cap someone kicking your ass but this was kind of a grey area, it depends on the situation and the jury. I would call it justified, you probably wouldn't.

There had been a number of break ins in the area, weirdo.

The first thing I heard about this story was that it was a white guy that chased down a black kid and shot him when he reached in his pocket for a packet of skittles. Then we wonder why there's a massive controversy. Good job media.

says who? post the facts. the only ones i've seen are that the watchman was warned off, was armed. the kid was wearing a hoodie and wasn't. where's this testimony that he kicked the watchman's ass?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/26/t..._n_1381322.html

The rage behind the shooting is more that Zimmerman has only been questioned and police have made no attempt to press the issue. There's enough misinformation and lack of information that people think this shouldn't be the case. Even if Zimmerman was acting completely in self defense, there are enough conflicting reports that you have to investigate this thoroughly which seems too late at this point.

I'm not saying that Zimmerman should go to jail if he defended himself, but the simple fact of the matter is that manslaughter might have been committed and the Sanford police have done a poor job in convincing the public they did their due diligence in their investigation.

Here's probably my favorite current article on the issue. Quoting in full, because it's not that long:

"Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the facts of the case are basically as Zimmerman's defenders claim: Zimmerman killed Martin because Martin was beating him up and Zimmerman felt his life was in danger. Even so, it seems to me that Zimmerman should do jail time for killing Martin.

Here are some things we know about the case:

1) A man with a gun pursued an unarmed teenager who had done nothing wrong.

2) The man with the gun initiated a confrontation with the teenager. I realize that we don't know exactly how any fight between Zimmerman and Martin started. And we never will, because only Zimmerman knows the details, and he's not exactly unbiased. But by my lights, if you pursue an innocent, law-abiding citizen, thereby giving him or her reason to believe that you mean them harm -- and reason to conclude that their self-defense may require fighting--you have initiated a confrontation. Zimmerman will presumably depict his role in the encounter as passive. That testimony should count for roughly nothing, but in any event I'd say that even if it's true, he still initiated a confrontation just by pursuing a guy in the dark until he caught up with him. (And he did that even though he knew he was violating the rules of the Neighborhood Watch game and in fact had just been reminded of that by a 911 dispatcher!)

3) As a result of the confrontation, the man with the gun shot the teenager to death.

When I see pictures of George Zimmerman I actually feel kind of sorry for him (though not as sorry as I feel for Trayvon Martin), and if his defenders are right about what happened then I should feel even sorrier for him. Still, do we want to live in a society where somebody with a gun can chase down an unarmed, law-abiding citizen, presumably scaring them to death, then kill them after a fight unsurprisingly breaks out--and still get off scot-free? Do you want every wannabe cop in America reading that this sort of thing is legal? Do you think America's actual cops want to live in a world like that?

If we don't want to live in a world like that, then the law shouldn't let George Zimmermans kill Trayvon Martins. And if Florida law now allows for things like this to happen, and Zimmerman gets off the hook, then after this case is over, the law should change."

Er, no. Even if you put yourself in a bad situation (but do not provoke violence), if someone else then chooses to put your life in danger it's not your fault.

So if someone comes up to me in a non-threatening manner and initiates a 'confrontation' even though there's no physical threat to me, I have the right to beat him to death? Really?

Not that that's what happened here.

This post has been edited by TheWinkel on Mar 27 2012, 07:57 PM