[0975] - [mot:unmod] - Why Did You Do That?, let go of me.

hey, I think you're right!
on that note, let's make some predictions based on the parallels:

1) Piroko headshot = Piro retaliating against the pro-exploitation otaku
2) Yuki grabbing gun = Yuki stopping Piro's retaliation, rendering him helpless
3) Sonada questioning Piroko and Largo while angry = Piro and Largo pissing off Sonada (possibly because Yuki's in danger? oooooh, someone's in trouble...)

That's all I can really grab right now...more to come with the rest of the omake!

Hmmm. As for what comes next...I'll go over a cliff with a crazy wild guess.

The bad guys have the building rigged to explode to cover their tracks if things go wrong. They run leaving Piroko and the girls behind. Yuki with her klepto-magic instantly removes all the girls in a flash. Then to stop the bad guys from getting away she puts them back into the building with her klepto-magic. At that point the building blows taking the bad guys out all at once. Oops! Hehehe.

Yup a very wild guess but what the heck.



edit. Spelling and weird spacing. Low blood sugar. Must get food... *slowly crawls away*

This post has been edited by mylemonblue on Mar 17 2007, 04:49 AM

You are right, there's been no discussion of that aspect. Perhaps its because there's little to discuss, since its such an obvious, undisputed evil.

Or perhaps people instinctively shy away from discussing issues of morality, because, you know, you start with looking at human trafficking, and next you'll be considering the morality of lying to start a war, in support of a country that is _the_ worst offender wrt human/sex-slave trafficking, as well as many other human rights abuses, up to and including ongoing genocide (using an alledged but probably highly exaggerated if not entirely fabricated past instance of same as an excuse.) Then the discussion will head off into general moral issues, such as the use of depleted uranium munitions, supposedly in the hunt for terrorists and WMD, neglecting the detail that DU weapons are the worst possible form of both. Then there's vote fraud, committing mass-murderous false flag 'terrorist' attacks to manipulate public opinion, the issue of Truth itself, lying media and laws suppressing free debate, and so on.

Its just too much trouble, this 'morality' thing. So most people avoid it entirely. Much safer to obsess about models of guns, and angles of entry of cartridges into the breech.

Perhaps. I still found it telling that it wasn't really even being addressed in its application within the confines of the story.

I find it sad to have to agree with you here. Not because I do not wish to agree with your statement. But because the situation exists for humanity where there is even the possibility that this is an accurate assessment.

Apparently you are around the same age as me, and so also grew up in a time when the western education system hadn't yet perfected the techniques of destroying natural intincts of inquisitiveness, confidence in one's own capacity to differentiate right from wrong, and awareness that its important to do so. Postmodernism, moral relativism, and all that crap.

Anyway, it appears that the entire situation is going to resolve one way or another within the next decade, possibly the next couple of years even. So at least we'll live to see the end result. Not sure if that will be 'lucky' or not.

Are you having fun yet? [irony]

I suppose that's possible. I graduated High School in '76, crossed into "Old Fart" a few years back, am getting closer to "Crotchety ol' Cuss" and am actively working my way to "Curmudgeon".

I won't go into my feelings regarding primary education in America in any detail here. That's better suited for the MT Forum. Suffice it to say, in my opinion, our children and children's children will be suffering the consequences for decades to come.

As did I. Those of us who were Bicentennial Year HS Grads were never told to report to our draft boards. Wonder why? As to the kids — you have to challenge them to be better. My folks didn't rely on the school system alone as Reagan already broke it here in California. I was reading 4 books a night from 3rd grade up.

Probably because the draft ended in '73.

Good to hear that your parents did what all parents should and that you benefited from their direction.

Heh. He's calling himself an old timer, with a post count of 555. As an electronics engineer, I find this very funny.

But gosh, those descriptions! And I'm older than that, based on stated birth dates. What comes after curmudgeon?

I guess you are not a believer in Peak Oil, Olduvai theory, etc, then?

As did I.

Me too.

Probably because the draft ended in '73.

And draft registration didn't start back up until a few years later, and our cohort was skipped when they did so. (Googles)1980 was the year it was reintroduced. I think at the time it was 18-21 years olds that had to register or some such; I was already in the Marines so I didn't pay much attention.

Explain why the class of '74 and '75 were told to report then? I'm lucky in regards to my folks. You take care ...

And draft registration didn't start back up until a few years later, and our cohort was skipped when they did so. (Googles)1980 was the year it was reintroduced. I think at the time it was 18-21 years olds that had to register or some such; I was already in the Marines so I didn't pay much attention.

When it restarted it was for those born in 1960 or later. I remember because I was right near the edge. Fortunately we didn't decide to keep Central America safe from democracy and nothing came of it.

Because, although the draft ended in 1973, registration ended in 1975. (Took me a bit to find a website that confirmed that.)

Gee, cynical much?

Personally, I didn't talk about the morality or lack thereof in human trafficking because, to quote you, "there's little to discuss, since its such an obvious, undisputed evil." And by the way, neither of my parents voted for Bush in either election, and I wouldn't have if I'd been eligible.

And another thing: there's a difference between postmodernism, multiculturalism, moral pluralism, and moral relativism. I am quite aware of the problems with the latter, including most obviously "tolerance of intolerance." Personally, I think all this means is that you have to choose your values more carefully, and understand better why you value them.

I only spent two and a half years of my education (mid-first to the end of third grade) in public school. Nevertheless, I do not hold inherent distaste for it, only awareness of its vast array of flaws and problems. Not that private schools are entirely free from these either, but I do consider them flaws and not designs. Nor was it all that great in the past, as far as I can tell, even if it has slipped a lot lately. (My mom, having been a teacher for some time, personally witnessed a lot of the failures and backfirings of that gem.) In any case, I will thank you to not hold my entire generation in contempt, even if it is a centuries-old tradition. And reading speed is not necessarily related to education.

Lastly, even though I registered for the draft as well when I turned 18 (why was that even brought up?), I don't remotely expect the draft will be reinstated; these are people who remember what that did to LBJ. Even political stupidity has its limits.

Happy I could make your day a little more mirthful.

I'm hoping for "Respected Elder" but, more realistically, it'll probably be "Crazy ol' Coot".

I don't believe in any institutionalized system that celebrates mediocrity and punishes excellence.

They weren't told to "report". They were told to register. Reporting to your Draft Board meant that they had a bus ticket to a wonderfully wacky new world for you.

Sorry Shay. I kind of got this little bandwagon rolling when I commented that the morally repugnant topic of human trafficking wasn't even being talked about within the context of the story. There was marveling at the technical jiggery pokery that was controlling the young women but I saw no sense of horror at the simple fact that these women weren't engaged in cosplay or even prostitution. They were being sold, not only without their consent but apparently without even their knowledge, as property.

My hat's off (Well, would be if I wore one) to you for this kind of clarity. I think you're somewhat mistaken, though, in what moral relativism has wrought. Because of the idea that all values systems are the same and good/evil right/wrong are in the eyes of the beholder (Kind of a holdover from the idea "if it feels good it can't be bad"), moral relativism, and it's bastard child political correctness, have brought about an "intolerance of tolerance". Remember, tolerance means "putting up with". Or at least it used to. The new and improved version apparently means "having to be accepting of something whether you like it or not".

I think you're being far too optimistic here.

This post has been edited by Grimchar on Mar 18 2007, 03:27 PM

Amen to that!

Truth is, just how the girls ended up in the situation hasn't been made clear; but regardless it's still clearly wrong. Plenty of the victims of modern-day slavery entered willingly into their contracts, because they were lied to about the nature of the 'jobs' they were going to get, and led to believe that they would be doing legitimate work. The point is that no matter how they got here, right now the girls have robbed of their will to resist - and that's a crime in any moral system.

Or even, "being legally forced to accept something you know is wrong and that is clearly bad for society". Y'know, I don't happen to think it's morally reprehensible to question the wisodm of, say, legalizing marijuana. But in some places the very fact that you question it earns you the label of being a raving red-neck reactionary Reaganist lunatic.

And for the record, I graduated HS in 1990, so I'm a decade and a half younger than my fellow curmudgeons, and even I despair for the future of the world when I look at the confused moral formation of the under-25 set.

There's a bigger generation gap between me and people ten years my junior and me and people thirty years older. The 90's were not kind to morality.

Patty,
My own experience, based both on what I've seen from both life and history is that every generation either sees itself as the pinnacle after which there can only be decline or else regards the generation after itself as merely another link of a long slide into ruin. Either way, an interesting self-condemnation of its own childrearing methods when you think of it.

Confused moral formation seems universal throughout the ages to me - Including among my fellow bicentennials since for all the wringing of hands I don't exactly recall anyone saying slavery was a good thing here nor do I sympathize with this apparent notion that every tale told must be a moral homily where the story pauses at every moment to tell the reader what to think or that the audience is somehow obliged to be so bogged down with a sense of horror that it lacks the ability to engage in technical analysis all so that it can wallow in feelings instead. Both the past and the future are foreign countries. Technology will always breed new ways for sins to be done and close off the old ones. If you *don't* give thought to the technical stuff that makes this possible then you will be blindsided by it. The technophobia of the 70s and its embrace of political "relevance" as the supreme goal of goals in all endeavours was one of the reasons I was glad to leave that nasty little decade behind.

In this case let us remember that this omake is a *Science-Fiction* tale. I shouldn't have to explain this to fellow Phen but the nature of Science-Fiction for the past 80 years (107 or so if we date it from H.G. Wells rather than from Hugo Gernsbeck and John W. Campbell) is to embrace a certain amount of amorality in return for the detachment needed to conduct and review thought experiments and the foresight that such thought experiments allow. Such an SF tale may build upon premises left behind by the tales that came before it but if it does its job it will leave its own mark upon the meme ediface that it makes use of. In this case this omake is also a *Cyberpunk* tale. That means it belongs to a sub-genre started by an SF writer named Gibson in the mid-80s. This particular sub-genre not only embraced a certain amorality but deliberately wallowed in it the way that noir films did and still do. The difference between Cyberpunk and Noir is that when Cyberpunk does so it is to anticipate in what the directions that amorality armed with technology will take us if we let it. I might not care for the genre because I consider it excessively dystopic but I do respect it. It's not the story's job to talk about whether or not a thing is morally repugnant. For good or for ill this is where SF parts company from Fantasy. The reader is supposed to be able to figure this one out without help. It *is* the story's job to provide you with a glimpse of choice and its consequences to the extent that it is supposed to do anything beyond entertain. So far it seems to be doing a good job in that regard.

As for the younger generation? Nostaliga was always a very 1970s thing (Did I mention I really *loved* leaving that nasty little decade behind? ) and considering how screwed up Carter and the Congress of that time had made things perhaps there were reasons for it but I really do remember it quite clearly and we were *not* exactly a generation of rocket scientists or saints ourselves. Offhand, I would say that those under 25 are no worse than we were and I take great comfort in that.

This post has been edited by Small Pink Mouse on Mar 19 2007, 01:44 AM

I would like to believe all of us here are against slavery and any type of human trafficking.

Some of us were really rocket scientists for a time. But the same idiot who screwed up 5th Grade in California for my generation in 1968 as governor also screwed the pooch on that as well when he was president. When I was part of the PFRR and FRR of the shuttles we always were able to keep track of the O-rings; However, the GSA under pressure from this same president managed to get rid of its shuttle launch veterans 3 months earlier; And then for insipid political PR reasons of his own "touting having a teacher in space", Reagan bumped up the launch of the STS-51-L and everyone on board died.


If I could I'd blame the 70s on Nixon and Reagan too. I know I wasn't in charge.

It looks like it's my turn to have quotation flaws...

[quote=BinaryTears] You are right, there's been no discussion of that aspect. Perhaps its because there's little to discuss, since its such an obvious, undisputed evil.
[/quote]
If you go back to the discussions for the first two pages you will find dozens of comments about how one aspect or another made the person feel quezy, uncomfortable, or weird.
Prostitution is alive and well everywhere in the world, and some of you would argue that it is an acceptable lifestyle, but usually only a forced indenture / slave trafficker will argue that they are helping the women they dominate and abuse. So, yes, everyone here is going to agree that slavery is wrong, perhaps even evil.

[quote=BT] Apparently you are around the same age as me, and so also grew up in a time when the western education system hadn't yet perfected the techniques of destroying natural instincts of inquisitiveness, confidence in one's own capacity to differentiate right from wrong, and awareness that its important to do so.
[/quote]
We have seen one failed experiment after another in education techniques implimented without adequate training or any proof that the new system can teach the essentials better than historical methods. All of this while the power to control the system is gathered into higher, larger, and more encompassing bureaucracies that are not only unconstitutional, but are organized along the lines of socialist systems proposed in the 1930's and 1940's. Several people have pointed out that the current system fails for a large proportion of all students and does little more than babysit successive generations of ignorant, even illiterate, wage slaves and juvenile criminals.

[quote=Grimchar] I won't go into my feelings regarding primary education in America in any detail here. That's better suited for the MT Forum. Suffice it to say, in my opinion, our children and children's children will be suffering the consequences for decades to come.
[/quote]
I've pretty well lost all faith in the American people to effect any change for the better because we are already a nation of complacent sheep and predatory thugs. I'm not even sure the people can get the Fair Tax passed, and that is just one of many systems that have to be torn down and readdressed by other methods.

[quote=stsparky] As did I. Those of us who were Bicentennial Year HS Grads were never told to report to our draft boards. Wonder why?
[/quote]
I'm Class of 1976 also. Draft registration was canceled for two years as an experiment to see if a 100% volunteer army would be able to attract enough recruits to meet the heavily reduced registration needs of an army that was being rapidly downsized in response to the pull-out in Viet Nam. The experiment failed and something very close to the current system was instated.

[quote-BinaryTears] But gosh, those descriptions! And I'm older than that, based on stated birth dates. What comes after curmudgeon?
[/quote]
Probably geriatric jerk, but I suppose it depends on how nice you are to others.

[quote=BT] I guess you are not a believer in Peak Oil, Olduvai theory, etc, then?
[/quote]
I currently consider both of them to be too optimistic. When you consider that essentially ALL shipping of finished goods is by truck, and practically nothing is produced near it's consumption point, then compare that with the increasing instability of gas prices every summer and winter for two years now, and it becomes easy to imagine a chain reaction of failing businesses, starting with the trucking industry, all caused by an extreme price spike or oil cutoff in the near future. We could have only 2 to 5 years left before we are on a roller coaster ride back to the early industrial age. Estimated deaths in the first two years could run 3 to 5 billion.

[quote=Grimchar] I don't believe in any institutionalized system that celebrates mediocrity and punishes excellence.
[/quote]
Sounds just like the American teacher's unions. I suspect that my politics are much closer to yours than these other guys.

[quote=Patty Acer] And for the record, I graduated HS in 1990, so I'm a decade and a half younger than my fellow curmudgeons, and even I despair for the future of the world when I look at the confused moral formation of the under-25 set.

There's a bigger generation gap between me and people ten years my junior and me and people thirty years older. The 90's were not kind to morality.
[/quote]
Hundreds of civilizations have risen and fallen. When they rose they had marked codes of honor, integrity, and morality. By the time they fell they were marked by corruption, debauchery, and greed in all their forms. There are many quotes from the period of the fall of the Roman Empire that precisely describe the sins and corruptions of our current society. America will fail from internal rot long before any invading army will appear to conquer it.

[quote=Small Pink Mouse] My own experience, based both on what I've seen from both life and history is that every generation either sees itself as the pinnacle after which there can only be decline or else regards the generation after itself as merely another link of a long slide into ruin. Either way, an interesting self-condemnation of its own childrearing methods when you think of it. tongue.gif
[/quote]
Those with the insight to perceive the trend are far outnumbered by those who don't care, even when it is shown to them. Living only in the past or present is the normal human condition. The quality of those who fight the trend usually determines how long it can be held back... never prevented.

[quote=SPM] Technology will always breed new ways for sins to be done and close off the old ones.
[/quote]
Odd, I can't think of any old sins that have been dispensed, only novel ways to perform the same old sins as ever.

Actually, SF is the exact opposite. BY removing itself from the 'now' setting, SF is free to talk about the truly big (and usually moral) themes present in human history and human society. And this is what it usually does. Your average SF author is wayyyyyyyyyyyy more concerned with the mores of modern society, and with commenting upon same, and with shining a light on where we're possibly going to end up, than your average non-genre author. One of the defining features of SF is that it does this in some way. It talks about what it means to be human, which is what makes it so great.

Dystopian visions of the future are not usually invented just for kicks. The writer has an intent. And actually, even in cyberpunk, no matter how amoral the society depicted, the heroes are usually following some sort of moral code. It just may not be a code we recognize as 'good'.

Anyhow, this omake might not be written to comment on RL human trafficking, but it sure is shedding some light on issues that already exist within MT itself.