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> Largo, A serious discussion of his perception
Dog Soldier
Posted: Nov 21 2004, 04:46 PM
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I believe Miho has used the oppurtunity of her fainting spell to skip school for "sick days". Who knows, she may have actually gone to see a doctor. I think she used that oppurtunity to go hang out at the bookstore where she encountered Yuki. Miho would know who Yuki is as she undoubtably still has access to the call records for the cellphone. Miho is one that would maintain an air of mystery even if an event happened purely by chance. Once she has acquired an reputation of being "make things happen" people would suspect her even if she has nothing to do with the events.
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littlethunder
Posted: Nov 21 2004, 06:38 PM
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The night before, in [512], Miho made a cryptic remark about giving a present to Largo. Sometimes I wonder if she was hinting that she knew what was going to happen the next morning.

LittleThunder

This post has been edited by littlethunder on Nov 21 2004, 06:38 PM
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AncestralHamster
Posted: Nov 21 2004, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (littlethunder @ Nov 22 2004, 12:38 AM)
The night before, in [512], Miho made a cryptic remark about giving a present to Largo.  Sometimes I wonder if she was hinting that she knew what was going to happen the next morning.

I actually take that as saying she was playing mind games with Largo*. She knew that Largo's suspicions of her were such that if she hinted that she left him something, he'd get paranoid and attribute anything out of the ordinary as her doing. So for very little effort, she can easily distract Largo.


*So much for my earlier statement that Miho is playing Largo in the physical realm.

QUOTE (littlethunder)
Ah, I misread your earlier post. <snip> Mea culpa.

S' alright.

QUOTE (Resolute)
What are the popular theories about her (Miho's) condition?

Usually diabetes or an eating disorder, and many others too numerous to mention ... Miho is the most speculated upon character in MT and Erika the second most, since they are the ones with the most mysterious pasts.

Here's a Brief Overview of Miho Tohya. It's a bit out of date, but will serve as a starting point.
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Dog Soldier
Posted: Nov 21 2004, 08:03 PM
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For what it's worth my opinion is that Miho's fainting spells are brought on by excess exertion. She is the epitome of the Wylde Chylde. I've wondered if the readings that Ping didn't understand was that of a conditioned athlete. Low blood pressure, low resting heart rate. This would not be something that Ping would be familiar with given her target consumer base. Miho just pushes herself far too hard and on occasion she pays the price.
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l33t Skillz
Posted: Nov 21 2004, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE (WhiteKnight @ Nov 21 2004, 10:03 PM)
Miho just pushes herself far too hard and on occasion she pays the price.

Pushes herself? Forgive me, but I don't see any evidence to support your theory of the reason for her collapse. Miho had not done any strenuous activity to collapse from. What activity did she push herself in so hard as to collapse?

This post has been edited by l33t Skillz on Nov 21 2004, 08:08 PM
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Dog Soldier
Posted: Nov 21 2004, 08:21 PM
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Dancing late at clubs, when she called Piro that night she was dressed to the nines but had scaled a power pole. If you're not going for the "magical girl' angle then Miho has enormous physical prowess, probably second only to Junpei. Appearing frail is all part of her persona, a bit of misdirection. She has the hard, tight body of a gymnast or dancer under those pretty frills and lace.
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claymade
Posted: Nov 21 2004, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE (WhiteKnight @ Nov 21 2004, 08:21 PM)
If you're not going for the "magical girl' angle then Miho has enormous physical prowess,  probably second only to Junpei.  Appearing frail is all part of her persona,  a bit of misdirection.

I dunno... What we see in [175] seems pretty honest-looking to me... I personally take her struggles there at face value. After all, who would she be putting a show on for there? Largo was already totaled, and she didn't realize about Piro until a few frames later.
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HamHam
Posted: Nov 21 2004, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (AncestralHamster @ Nov 21 2004, 12:01 AM)
She's approaching this as a gamer, not as a military professional would. (It is my understanding that the military is not looking for a fair fight, but victory, and so a CO does everything in he can to stack the odds in his favor. Gamers and sportsmen can afford the luxury of fighting on "difficult ground" in the interests of getting a better game, or demonstrating superior skill.)

I'd put a slightly different spin on that:

Her goals is still victory in any way possible, just like that of a military commander, but her goal is more complex. In a military conflict the goal is usually conquest of some physical asset (land, people, minerals, etc.), or prevention of the same. Even "ideological" wars boil down to posession of physical assets (conquering the South in the Civil War, capturing Jerusalem in the Crusades, etc). In order to achieve that goal defeating the opposing army by any means will suffice.

Miho's goals, however, are more complex (and more mysterious). There is no apparent physical asset she can gain by defeating Piro or Largo (maybe Ping, although they don't seem to want her that much anyway, or, wild theory, the cool thing, but why involve Piro in that case). Thus, she must be aiming for something else, some non-physical asset.

I can think of several possibilities: she wants to change Piro and Largo in some way, or convince them of something, or some such. In that case her battles with them would simply be used as a metaphor to make them understand this. Or she might just be thrill-seeking, in which case fighting them on their strongest points would be more fun. Or maybe she wants something else altogether.

To provide an example:

When Vash fights Rai-Dei the Blade in the manga [very minimal spoiler warning] he tells Wolfwood to stay out of it because "If this isn't one-on-one, I'll never make him understand... [that kill or be killed isn't the only way]"

In the same way I believe that Miho's true goal does not work if she simply defeats Piro and Largo, which is why she does not.
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Resolute
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 12:29 AM
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I don't know quite what to say about someone who physically exerts themselves too much. Having gone through endurance tests, I have yet to experience any kind of fainting spell. Hallucinations? Yep. Dizziness? Uh huh. Throwing up? Seen it happen. But maybe that is indicative of our differences. I'm a 21yr old 135lb 5'6" male used to physical and mental stress. I can carry 1.5x my body weight at least a half mile without stopping, more if the the climbs are gentle and the ground is firm.

But over a week, if I were to club every night and get less than 2 hours sleep every night, I suppose I'd probably start to hallucinate atleast. You see the pink elephant, its time to take another hit form the sugar dispenser to clear your head.

In fact, the more I think about it, I think WhiteKnight is right. I've been told passing out from exertion due to fatigue, lack of good dietary intake, lack of good physical condition is possible. Having learned awhile back how to avoid "dropping", as we call it, on a run or hike by ramping up on starchy foods before and endurance test and sustaining your strength through high sugar/moderate starch snacks. I like to mix in a good helping of sugar into my peanut butter and eat it with crackers.

If Miho isn't eating well giving herself good rest, it could be the cause. Obviously, she can climb poles, which is no easy feat if you're not in shape. AS you say WhiteKnight, Miho does have the lithe shape of a gymnast. The sport, depending on your event, require a certain amount of strength and endurance but more so balance and flexibility. To keep with our running comparison to the military, a soldier needs more endurance than anything, but a healthy level of strength wouldn't hurt. In modern combat, its not strength, but speed that is most useful. Speed allow you to expose yourself to enemy fire for the briefest amount of time and dictate the place and time of engagement. Were we a thousand or even five hundred years ago, strength would have a greater role.
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WanderingClown
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 01:14 AM
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My take: Miho has asthma.

If miho has asthma, and isn't severe, then she may not experience anything unless she has done somthing out of the ordinary. With non-severe asthma, if you do ordinary things, it won't be noticed, but you might have a fainting or dizzy or weakness spell on rare occasions after exerting yourself in certain "endurance" activities that require a high level of out put for an extended length of time. It is also realistic since in an otherwise healthy indivudual, it won't be noticed except on an allergists tests or athlete training tests. Its possible to hike, climb, scuba dive, and do all sorts of things without triggering it, and have it trigger on things that seem like they wouldn't trigger it. So it appears random even when it isn't. The only time it is noticed is when there is a lack of air getting to the muscles.

(removed paragraph) (too groggy when making original comment)

Edit: Even, with minor exertion, and taking care of oneself, she may not experince the fainting attacks when she feels exhausted. Clubbing wouldn't do any good, but it may not produce the results that we see. Rest and diet are not going to produce those results unless the person has something else wrong or they have deviated from their usual pattern before the attacks. Something else has to be there for it to be more than fakery. Drugs woould explain it.

This post has been edited by WanderingClown on Nov 22 2004, 09:47 AM
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Ray Kremer
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 01:33 AM
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QUOTE (littlethunder @ Nov 21 2004, 06:38 PM)
The night before, in [512], Miho made a cryptic remark about giving a present to Largo.  Sometimes I wonder if she was hinting that she knew what was going to happen the next morning.

IT WON'T DIE! AUUUUUUGGHH! wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif

tongue.gif
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Sabyr
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 08:37 AM
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QUOTE (WhiteKnight @ Nov 22 2004, 01:21 PM)
She has the hard,  tight body of a gymnast or dancer under those pretty frills and lace.

Mmmmm.

QUOTE (raykremer)
IT WON'T DIE! AUUUUUUGGHH!  wacko.gif  wacko.gif  wacko.gif

Is this in the drinking game yet?


Sabyr
... under a blue sky ...
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Resolute
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 09:07 AM
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QUOTE
Further more, Resolute, what you said won't necessarily apply to my claim. With the asthma I am referring to, you can do all that you said and it STILL won't be noticed. It can take a severe allergic reaction for anyone to even think of doing the proper test on a non-obvious asthmatic.


I'm sorry WanderingClown, but I fail to see anypoint where my post concerned anything you said. I'm well aware that asthma comes in grades of severity, just like every other health problem in the world. Further more, I actually don't see any posts of your previous to mine that refer to the current discussion. Just what are you referring to that I said?



As far as littlethunder's comment, if she has as strong a presence on the net as I think, then she would have seen the fanboy horde coming by all the internet chatter, same way that Largo did. Whether she had a hand in tipping off the horde, I can't guess. Her seeing what was coming and suggested it was her doing wouldn't surprise me either. Notice, for those who think this is drifting into another Miho supernatural gig, sorry. No cake for you.
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Ray Kremer
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 10:59 AM
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QUOTE (Sabyr @ Nov 22 2004, 08:37 AM)
Is this in the drinking game yet?

Gee, you're right, it should be. And will be, now.
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littlethunder
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 02:34 PM
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Shall we make a forum drinking game about rants against topics that aren't in the MT drinking game?

LittleThunder
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Andrusi
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 03:34 PM
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I wonder if we've reached the point where the drinking game itself should be in the drinking game.
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HamHam
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 03:38 PM
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In a vain attempt at getting this discussion back to Largo, I'll point out claymade's point a while back:

QUOTE (claymade)
Therein, I think, lies the crux of the matter, and a big reason why so many disagree with that view--something that applies to the most basic aspect of the character. The question, at it's most fundamental level, is whether Largo is just "trying to get by", or whether he is, in however flawed, misguided or mistaken a way, an idealist. That's the key distinction.

I think that the answer is the latter. Time and time again you see him charging into situations--sometimes even risking his life--where he could have just as easily walked the other way. No matter what skill level you assign him (clearly he has his strengths and his weaknesses) or what character flaws you ascribe to him (and who doesn't have some of those?), I think that he's a fundamentally different character than the "just trying to get by" type. In the final analysis he has his principles--you may disagree with them, or find them inconsistent, but he has them--and he's willing to stand up for them come hell or high water.


I'll put an interesting spin on this:

We all remember Kimiko's little speech about how nothing in reality can ever live up to what we feel inside. I'm sure many of us, especially the romantics, feel this way.

I'd suggest that Largo is, in a way, a romantic, and is in some ways more extremely so than any of the other characters. To rant philosophically a bit more, he sees the base essences of things. In terms of Plato's Cave, he is someone who can naturally see the fire casting the shadows, ie the world of ideas.

Thus while Kimiko says nothing in life can live up to what we feel inside, Largo goes out and lives his life so that it does live up to what he feels inside. It's almost a certain personal post-modernism.

Largo has no doubts about what the meaning of life is, he is perfectly at peace with existance. He lives in the moment, while also having a goal in life.

This is in contrast to the other major characters, all of whom seem to display a certain wistful aimlessness and lack of definite purpose:

Piro is working to get home, although it's not really clear why, since there hardly seems to be any real reason for him to go home, while he flounders around in his romantic relationships.

Kimiko wants to be a voice actress, but seems uncertain of how or even if she should be one.

Erika seems to have lost what purpose she had when her career and engagement ended, and now is now caught in a nether land between that and despair.

Largo however knows why he exists. He is fated to fight 3vil where ever it lurks.

Not even Miho is this one-minded, being conflicted between hate of people and desire for acceptance by them.
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Dog Soldier
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 04:10 PM
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I believe you've forgotten "have a cookie?" Things aren't going so hot for Largo either. Fred tried to end the last chapter on an up note. That hasn't changed the big picture for Largo. I sincerely hope he doesn't continue to charge blindly across an empty field.

I see all the characters as flawed, I think a lot of people see Largo as being "perfect" and thus don't want him to change.
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HamHam
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (WhiteKnight @ Nov 22 2004, 04:10 PM)
I believe you've forgotten "have a cookie?" Things aren't going so hot for Largo either. Fred tried to end the last chapter on an up note. That hasn't changed the big picture for Largo. I sincerely hope he doesn't continue to charge blindly across an empty field.

I see all the characters as flawed, I think a lot of people see Largo as being "perfect" and thus don't want him to change.

But the field isn't empty. Largo isn't, as you seem to think, tilting at wind mills.

However, it is possible he misunderstands his true enemy. I think Miho's recent behaviour has confused him, and will make him wonder just what her motivations in all this are. Is she the one calling out for help?

Meanwhile there is a new threat: Dom. When, or perhaps if, Junpei returns with this information we may see some action.

Largo isn't "perfect", but his weirdness and non-conformity is not a flaw, it's a strength.
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Dog Soldier
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 04:29 PM
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I'm wondering if it might not occur to Largo that Miho isn't the enemy after all.
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HamHam
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (WhiteKnight @ Nov 22 2004, 04:29 PM)
I'm wondering if it might not occur to Largo that Miho isn't the enemy after all.

If it's true, it will. Miho's ploys will only work for so long.
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Dog Soldier
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 04:53 PM
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Miho is sharp, I suspect that she now knows the source of the fanboy horde even if she didn't know earlier. She's been seeing how Largo would respond to assorted things and from her viewpoint he hasn't done well at all. Imagine what she might be thinking, she's not doing anything and knows it. But she knows who is. She waits to see if Largo can figure it out. It would be very frustrating.
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Quiet Lurker
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 05:06 PM
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Ah, but Miho has not met Dom yet, even our good Inspector Sonoda doesn't know Dom is behind this latest event. The only ones who knows the true culprit are Junpei and Dom himself.

Thus I don't see how Miho would know, unless she really is Junpei's daughter/son/sister/brother/husband/wife/girlfriend/boyfriend laugh.gif

Isn't it amazing how many crazy theories are out there?
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littlethunder
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (AncestralHamster @ Nov 20 2004, 10:01 PM)
Ed seems to relish the "personal touch" too much, and is unwilling to forego the pleasure of destroying Ping personally. This makes him the inferior player, since he has lost sight of his objective (destroy Ping by any means) in his eagerness to indulge himself in destroying her personally.

Did you notice that Dom has also allowed himself to be distracted from his objective?

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Resolute
Posted: Nov 22 2004, 07:57 PM
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I would bet Miho has suspicions, but my basis goes back to my original premise; Miho is stronger on the net than anyone realizes. Just because Largo and Piro defeated her in Endgames doesn't mean she's a feather weight. I believe she is every bit Largo's equal and in many ways his superior when it comes to manipulation and information gathering. Largo's strengths are largely technical and power based (ie assaulting/defending a digital area from attack, as demonstrated by his defense during the Fanboy Horde).
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