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> Will This Ever End?, Megatokyo
BaLRoG
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 04:15 AM
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QUOTE (wolfsnap @ Apr 8 2004, 12:00 AM)
He's gotten it this far, I trust that he'll get Megatokyo where he wants it to go. How many of us get there with him is probably immaterial.

thats not immaterial, the largest factor in MTs seccess is the strong internet fan base that goes out and buys the books. Fred is doing a great job and as he stated MT had a record month in march (i joined then after reading for a while). hes obviously doing something right, despite what some people say. right and wrong in the drawing world is a personal opinion, there is no set laws as to what you should do. i think fred is showing us this in a big way, hes gone against much advise/critisism to put together this comic the way he sees right, and look at it, possibly the best web comic around in mine, and many other peoples opionions! i read other web comics. i probably check them once every 2 - 4 weeks. every monday, wednesday and friday im sitting on MT waiting for the next comic to appear. its captivated lots of people.

The charactors have developed alot i think. ill give a few examples of the developement ive seen.

Piro - has sowly gained confidence around girls. take notice of how he acts around ekira when hes first meets her. now look at how he was with her recently, he speaks to her as if shes just another friend.

Kimiko - started off with not much self esteem then went down hill when she thought she was being blown off for the role. then when she got the role she picked up and was happy, she now has more self confidence and happiness.

Largo - started off as a paranoid gamer... went totally paranoid after meeting miho. now he seems to have moved out of his zombie dream world and is actually fighting a real enemy.

kimiko and piros relationship has developed a great deal. they started as strangers then had a little bit of a fight. they are currently building a strong relations ship.

thats all i can think of atm.

i think this whole topic is very relevant to piros rant after ep135. he states that he often goes against the GAO's (generally accepted opinions. well this entire comic is an example of this paying off, and is a shining beacon to those who think that they have to conform to the general opinions of their peers when drawing, or any other art form. do it your way. because you may be doing this to entertain other people but you arent going to be doing a very good job of it if you follow everyones advise and end up with a work that you dont like!

i think theres a very strong message in all this.

do it your way because your opinion is the only one that really matters!

id like to thank Fred for inspiring many people, and making the best damn comic out there!!!! keep up the good work!!!
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Norsehound
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 08:36 AM
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In a comic about anime it's right to do things the wrong way!

wait... biggrin.gif

As for character development...well it only has been what, a month in MT time? The fact that Largo wasn't snapped in half by Erika says something about thier character development laugh.gif
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Ray Kremer
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 09:09 AM
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QUOTE (Piro @ Apr 7 2004, 09:48 PM)
Guess there's something to be said for just doing it wrong.  Maybe doing it wrong is ok. smile.gif

Brilliant. You tell 'em, Fred.

QUOTE (IvanGrasilich @ Apr 8 2004, 03:53 AM)
And all this acheived over a period of two years (real time)?

What's it matter what it is in real time? It's been less than a week in story time since all these people have gotten to know each other. Maybe you would rather Fred does the rest of MT in prose rather than as a comic so things can move faster?

QUOTE
It seems to me then that, by your personal preference Megatokyo is going to last basically forever? This, I believe, is a real pity. A good story goes from a beginning to a middle to an end. Endings tie things together, and prove that the author has had mastery over the story throughout its course.

Yes, a good story reaches an end, and then most of the popular ones continue onward from there into a new story. Fred's not doing this aimlessly, you know. He's told us that he's got his story arcs planned out quite a bit into the future. When those arcs reach satisfying conclusions, new arcs will suggest themselves. Fred often points out that many stories end with the guy and the girl getting together, but that's just when things start to get interesting. If he brings that philosophy to MT, it'll be a good long time before MT has its final page.
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Adolf Nixon
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 10:10 AM
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QUOTE (Piro @ Apr 7 2004, 09:48 PM)
Personally, i think that people WANT something that they can latch onto and develop an attachment to that isn't going to go away in a few months.  Maybe people want something that just meanders along and does its thing. 

Funny, MT is just that for me.

QUOTE
To date i've not taken anyone's advice on how i should change MT


Nor should you. I love how you are able to surprise us all with an unexpected plot twist every now and then, it's refreshing.

QUOTE
Guess there's something to be said for just doing it wrong. Maybe doing it wrong is ok.


Most definately. Keep up the good work, Fred! I will be here till the end.
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Anthony Kane
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 10:28 AM
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QUOTE (IvanGrasilich @ Apr 8 2004, 03:53 AM)
'Seraphim and Piro didnt really decide anything though I do know the strip. And it wasnt Miho, it was Kimiko.'

Look at strips 512-514. I'm not confusing anything, Miho is the one being discussed. Where does Kimiko come from? To all of you bashing me, I specifically phrased my post to not be offensive. I understand that most inhabitants of this forum spend a lot more time with the strip than I do, what with the post counts in the hundreds or thousands for many of you, and are thereby more sensitive to criticism of the strip. That's fine, but I'm not here to fight with any of you. Let that be clear.

Piro:

At no point did I say something with the strip was 'wrong'. Critcism is freely given and freely ignored, that is your perogative as the master of the strip.

That being said, I don't think your response satisfies me entirely. I will accept that the pacing of the story is something I did not take fully into account with my initial post. Individual scenes do, I suppose, often last months in this strip, especially when combined with DPDs and SGDs. That I will accept.

You claim, however, that I cannot fanthom the subtle changes within characters that you have painstakingly employed. Alright then, let's take two strips,this and this. I suppose you could say that in the first strip, Erika considers Piro's supposed teenage-girl fetish in a much more mild way than she does in the latter, where she seems to begin to believe that he is actually doing such things (Other fans may refute this as they will. I don't quite remember the strip which first introduced that plot element, so my interpretation may be somewhat off)... But is that what you consider character evolution? A slight change in the intensity of a certain perception? And all this acheived over a period of two years (real time)?

It seems to me then that, by your personal preference Megatokyo is going to last basically forever? This, I believe, is a real pity. A good story goes from a beginning to a middle to an end. Endings tie things together, and prove that the author has had mastery over the story throughout its course. I challenge you to think of your favorite story, and then further imagine it with an ending that is the opposite of what actually occurred. Ruins it doesn't it? Perhaps now you, and the others in this forum, can see what I am getting at with more clarity...

And I am certainly glad to hear that Megatokyo is doing as well as you say it is. Again, I've been reading it for years. I want it, and you Piro, to do well. And, as I said originally, I will continue to read regardless of what you do.

Ya know something "Dude"

I think everyone here, with the exception of you, that is "True Fan of MT" will agree with me that we like the pace that MT is going at. We like the way the story is "slowly" developing. We like the fact that things aren't going to end anytime soon. We like the characters the way they are. And we Love Fred for doing what he does best... making MT the best damn webcomic there is...

Now the man gave you a response, and your still going to argue with him. You don't like the way things are, good, go somewhere else and be entertained. Take your low attention span butt and go on to the next thing that will keep you entertained for a week, and then move onto something else, that way we don't have to listen to you complain.

Its taking every last ounce of reserved strength I have not to lash out demolish you for being such a whining little...

The basic message I'm telling you is that if you don't like how the story is going then go somewhere else.

Personaly I love the fact that the character don't change very much, or very little if at all. It makes them consistent from comic to comic. It makes them real. Because real people don't change that much unless some life changing event happens in their life. I don't think that has happened to any MT character yet.

Piro: Great job, I think I speak for all the fans of the comic when we say we love you for doing things the way you do

so ignore this jerk

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TheGreatHibiki
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 10:32 AM
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QUOTE (Piro @ Apr 7 2004, 09:48 PM)
well, i could go on for quite a while why i do things the way i do, but it'd be a waste of time for any of you to read it. smile.gif

Ever since i started MT, i've had a lot of people (including 'professionals') tell me that i was doing this or that wrong, and that it was time for me to 'stop doing things wrong and start doing them right' or i'd start loosing readers. Story Pacing is one thing i do horribly wrong. Right?

peh. whatever.

The simple fact is - i pace things the way i do for a reason. These are real people, in my mind, and every time something happens, i try to weigh the reactions and the results of things against what keeps the characters who they are. Not all characters grow, not all change. Most do, of course, but some dont. Making a character like Largo grow is very difficult. Try it sometime.

People change slowly. Wasn't anyone paying attention to one of the chapters? 'things change little by little' The characters in MT HAVE changed. If you aren't seeing it, then maybe MT is too sublte for you. Sorry, that's just the kind of story i like.

There are a lot of stories and things out there that happen at a quick pace. They move quickly to the best parts, keeping things interesting, evolving moving changing and getting things done so the reader can move onto the next bit of sugar coated pre processed entertainment that is fed our way. Personally, i think that people WANT something that they can latch onto and develop an attachment to that isn't going to go away in a few months. Maybe people want something that just meanders along and does its thing.

Megatokyo is about the inbetween days, the moments between things, the little stuff. The big stuff is just there to have something to connect to. You might think our lives are defined by the big events in it, but personally i think we're defined by the little stuff. Just my take on things.

Sure, the MT characters all will (or wont) grow or change. Just because the last comic shows things that are reminicent of the early MT comics between Erika and Largo, that doesnt mean that there aren't a lot of subtle differences. I get emails all the time like "piro needs to get laid and stop being such a wuss" - yeah, sure, lots of people like him would LOVE to just go ahead and do that and the world would be fixed, but things don't happen like that.

To date i've not taken anyone's advice on how i should change MT, and according to most of them the result would be MT going down the tubes and losing readers. Funny how every month the traffic to the website goes up, and has for almost 4 years. March was a record month for MT.

Guess there's something to be said for just doing it wrong. Maybe doing it wrong is ok. smile.gif

DUDE YOU TELL EM FRED!!!!! WOOT!
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MoneyMan
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 10:38 AM
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QUOTE (Piro @ Apr 8 2004, 03:48 AM)
Guess there's something to be said for just doing it wrong. Maybe doing it wrong is ok. smile.gif

I certainly hope so, that's my philosophy for life you're describing there.
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Polyphemus
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 10:49 AM
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QUOTE
Look at strips 512-514. I'm not confusing anything, Miho is the one being discussed. Where does Kimiko come from?


Sorry but you are confused. While Piro is talking to Miho in 512 and complaining about her in the begining of 513. When "Seraphim" (Still not convinced its really her but that's besides the point.) arrives in 513 they she starts talking about Kimiko.

Seraphim: What about that waitress girl? Don't you find her a bit confusing too?
Piro: Nanasawa-san? Oh... Well, no, not really.
Seraphim: You sure you seemed pretty confusedabout how she feels about you.
Piro: Well, I... Uh...
Seraphim: I don't think she's clear at all. Besides, are you sure she's worth the effort of trying to figure out?

Seraphim then spends all of 514 giving him other reasons to give up on Kimiko.
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Piro
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 11:39 AM
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QUOTE (Anthony Kane @ Apr 8 2004, 04:28 PM)
so ignore this jerk

hey hey, don't call him a jerk - he was stating a very valid opinion. Its not flame bait at all. be nice ^^;;

I hope *my* response didnt come off offensive, just a quick answer, really. Keep in mind that im not a professional, i have no idea what im doing. Sure, my ways of doing things could lead to disaster, but havent we also seen where something fun got 'fixed' as it got popular, and lost what made it was it is in the first place?

i'd rather stop doing mt than have that happen smile.gif Just me

thanks for your comments, Ivan. Seriously, i do pay attention to them, but its also natural for me to get defensive tongue.gif

piro
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undertow
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE (Piro @ Apr 8 2004, 11:39 AM)
but its also natural for me to get defensive tongue.gif

Well, it is natural for you to get defensive, but also for your loyal fans to get defensive when some ignorant person attacks something we all love, as well as it's creator.
There are a lot of people here that love MT, and love what you do with it, and the way it's done. MT is one of my favorite (web)comics, and with good reason. I love the story, and the way you tell it. When i start my own webcomic i wish i could be as imaginative and original as you.
Plus that you really listen to fans, and their opinions.

Naturally we would come to your defence, and we should too. However there could have been some people here that overreacted and started flaming, but that too is a way of expressing ones own opinion on someone else's less popular opinion.

I think you really do a great job, and would really miss MT if it were to end. But i do think all things must end someday, and would hate to see that happen to MT in the near future

[EDIT] Ofcourse i'm not saying you cannot defend yourself, but as fans (or drones, or whatever you'd like to call us) i think we can at least defend what we like, and at this time, that would be you and MT.

But going on on the subject of character development we could compare MT with another webcomic i really enjoy and that would be: El Goonish Shive. Just like in MT the characters change very little (and a lot, but that would be changes in sex, species and other little things like that), and it has a great storyline with real depth and great intrigue.
Okay, i know it's just a matter of taste, but i think i share that taste with a lot of people here, and luckily the most important person here (who is Mr. Gallagher ofcourse, don't know if i should call him Mr. we could be about the same age, me being 24 and all).
But anyway, just to make my point: I like it here, and please, please, please Fred don't change it!! No matter what people say, you made it your own way, and people (at least i) love you for it.
alright that sounded strange, i am straight you know, okay...... wacko.gif

This post has been edited by undertow on Apr 8 2004, 12:34 PM
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Anthony Kane
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 12:16 PM
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QUOTE (Piro @ Apr 8 2004, 11:39 AM)
hey hey, don't call him a jerk - he was stating a very valid opinion. Its not flame bait at all. be nice ^^;;

Hey Piro sorry about that laugh.gif

undertow has a point though
QUOTE

Well, it is natural for you to get defensive, but also for your loyal fans to get defensive when some ignorant person attacks something we all love, as well as it's creator.


Piro:
QUOTE

but its also natural for me to get defensive


Just as it is natural for you to get defensive, it is in our nature, and mine as well, to get defensive when someone attacks something we all love, as well as the its creator. I didn't mean to get all nasty or sound like I was flaming him.

So I apologize to both you Piro and Ivan rolleyes.gif laugh.gif
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b33r>411
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 01:26 PM
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Seriously- we need a LITTLE less policing by Piro loyalists, or it will be impossible to have a discussion about megatokyo aside from "isn't it great? ...yeah, it is... Piro's a genius..." (all of which viewpoints I agree with btw). Look at this thread objectively for a second- it started with a legitimate criticism, offered in a polite fashion, and there have been some great points about the timeline, Piro's objective with the pacing, and I thought that Balrog did a good job pointing out significant character development. Sort of like the story was being discussed!

It's too bad that in between every one of those posts were 3-5 angry forumites expressing their ire that ANYONE would say anything potentially less than complimentary about the story. The irony is that I know that you do so out of trying to keep the forums a good place- but from my standpoint, you are obstructing a good debate. If you disagree with a viewpoint that someone takes the time to present to us here, PLEASE either ignore the post, or explain why you think that his viewpoint is flawed. People taking the time to post thoughtful criticism should be treated with respect.
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LodeRunner
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 02:21 PM
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Here's an example of a story that just goes on: Ranma. There are what, 40 books? MT is just getting started, by that metric. It has had its ups and downs, but it's been consistent in the telling of the story. Very few people are changed by that one, earth shattering event, because not everyone has those. People change little by little (if at all) in response to how things in their life fall into place. Once in a while, I look at a strip and go, "What? Why on earth did he do that?" but it's his story, so I willingly suspend my disbelief to see what comes next. I suppose that's the biggest problem, is that as opposed to a book where you can flip to the next page and see how it is resolved, we have to wait 2 or 3 days to see just the next step, and not even a guarantee of resolution. From that view, I think Fred has been doing a wonderful job with MT.

As far as character development, let's draw a quick (if slightly unfair) comparison between Largo and Ranma: both often come off as asses. But little by little you see the character change, and just when you think you're going to get a major change, of course, it's back to the status quo for that character. Almost. That's what makes this so enjoyable, from my view point at any rate.

Keep up the good work, Fred!
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Ray Kremer
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE (Anthony Kane @ Apr 8 2004, 10:28 AM)
I think everyone here, with the exception of you, that is "True Fan of MT" will agree with me that we like the pace that MT is going at.

Bah. We get "I used to love MT but I'm going to stop reading because all of a sudden the story is too slow and no longer funny" posts every month. Never mind that the argument is easily poked full of holes, the point is that the MT fanship isn't completely unified behind everything Fred does. Just those of us who hang around in the SD forum.

QUOTE (b33r>411 @ Apr 8 2004, 01:26 PM)
Seriously- we need a LITTLE less policing by Piro loyalists, or it will be impossible to have a discussion about megatokyo aside from "isn't it great?  ...yeah, it is...  Piro's a genius..."
...
It's too bad that in between every one of those posts were 3-5 angry forumites expressing their ire that ANYONE would say anything potentially less than complimentary about the story.

All the "I don't like MT anymore" threads turn out like this. Seriously, what would you expect if you went to the moveon.org forums and said you supported Bush's tax cuts? I can pull out this picture again
user posted image
but it's not going to change anything, much like Fred doesn't change the way he does things to chase down a minority in his audience who complain about something.
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umboody
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 03:06 PM
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You say Megatokyo doesn't move on quickly enough now? The plot now is more complicated and developed. More characters have been included and the story has to follow them as well as the original plot of Piro and Largo. You may say slow, but I think that the plot keeps you interested. One constantly wants to know what happens next, but one is held back for a while when the story follows one of the other characters. It IS slower than before, but if Fred went at more of a speed, he may not be able to include all of the jokes currently in the stories, all of the little things like facial expressions and blank spaces for suspense. You could say Fred could make the comic every day, but as he says, a comic like his takes about 10 hours to make. That's too much to ask from just one man. I really enjoyed reading the first 500 Megatokyo strips. I started rather late. You may well call me sad, but part of my life revolves around Megatokyo. I can't wait for every Monday, Wednesday and Friday's plot to unfold. I enjoy the comedy, the art and the complexity in each strip. I don't just like any old anime, in fact, I don't like any other anime except Megatokyo. In the webcomics I find on the internet, none of them have as much devotion put into them apart from this one. I understand what you are saying, Megatokyo may not be to everyone's tastes, but to the majority, they like it for a number of reasons apart from the length of time it takes for a plot to unfold. Take for example, The Lord Of The Rings (a bit off-topic, I know). More than 1000 pages of story. Some would say the plot is devilishly slow to reveal itself, but it is still considered one of the best books of all time because of the content of it, like Megatokyo. There are so many good things about it, the art, comedy, diversity of the characters, the plot, etc etc etc.
Sorry to go on, but it's just my 2 cents
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TheGreatHibiki
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE (Piro @ Apr 8 2004, 11:39 AM)
Keep in mind that im not a professional, i have no idea what im doing. Sure, my ways of doing things could lead to disaster, but havent we also seen where something fun got 'fixed' as it got popular, and lost what made it was it is in the first place?

i'd rather stop doing mt than have that happen smile.gif


but its also natural for me to get defensive tongue.gif

piro

You draw better than some pros Fred. I like your style, it is very much like what I would want mine to be should I ever get off my butt and do it....

I hope MT goes on for a few more years, but I'm sure we fans would understand that if you felt the need to stop, we might not like it, MT is quickly becoming my favorite online comic and comic period sense I found out it haddn't disappeared when the server went down oh so long ago... I have quickly grown fond of how your drawing skills and scripts have progressed in the series and how well you wrote Endgames...

As everyone has said we all get defensive when something we put our hearts into gets stomped on... It's a natrual thing... When my stories get flamed I'm not happy but I just work that much harder until I can get it good.... Just remember there a many more people who love MT than those who don't... I myself have gotten twenty or so people into it when I saw the books in my fav book store.... I had everyones attention as I described it... they sold out believe it or not....

Just keep up the good work and we'll try to be more reasonable about guys like this, okay?
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Crin the sniper
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 03:16 PM
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Each progressing strip is representing 30 seconds at most, not including jumps in parts where nothing is really going on or jumps between chapters(the longest one being a few weeks between 0 and 1, I think.) Personalities don't change in just a few days (only in extreme circumstances.) Let Fred run the strip!
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sakabatou
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 04:30 PM
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i just have one question... why would you want it to end? ph34r.gif
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Smaug
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 05:51 PM
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you cant rush a good thing
in other words dont kill the golden goose to try and get all the gold at once because it doesnt work that way


patience is a virtue
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EBJ
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 11:05 PM
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Comments = Helpful Advice
Complaints/Ridicule = Negative / Defensive Remarks

Let's think about them before posting. (happy mood laugh.gif )

Back to topic..

They did say slow and steady wins the race. happy.gif
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Mako_Neko
Posted: Apr 8 2004, 11:36 PM
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QUOTE (Piro @ Apr 8 2004, 11:39 AM)
Keep in mind that im not a professional, i have no idea what im doing. Sure, my ways of doing things could lead to disaster, but havent we also seen where something fun got 'fixed' as it got popular, and lost what made it was it is in the first place?

Pardon, Piro-sama,

To quote dictionary(dot)com "Having or showing great skill" is considered professional. And to my eyes you are VERY skilled. And I'm sure most of the professionals didn't know what they were doing at one time or another.

As for the development, yes, it may be slow but that's how things should be in a good story. When you're dealing with many characters and not just one or two yes I'm sure it's going to take time to fully develop their characters. Most manga are large and take up time, and personally I appreciate the time and effort he puts into this, he doesn't have to do a new strip every few days, but he does.

I know megatokyo's not to everyone's tastes, but it certainly suits mine. I hope that Fred/Piro continues going at his own pace and doing his own thing, I'm sure that once MT finally comes to an end, that the slow development and such will most definately be worth it. After all, rome wasn't built in a day.
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BaLRoG
  Posted: Apr 9 2004, 04:03 AM
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well theres definately a great showing of MT loyalty in this topic. its great. although its a shame that the debate has been extinguished by a smothering of "i love MT... shut up" posts... but the last 10 posts i think have been really informative and a good read.

and now i will do an MT partiotic speach!! happy.gif

well fred. you say your not a pro. you have at least a 30000 strong fanbase on line and probably more offline. you have 2 very successfully published manga books. and the comic is still going stonger than ever, and continuing to grow. your style of drawing is unique and absolutely beautiful in my opinion. you have been improving MT for 3 years constantly. where other web comics cut corners when they have enough frames to re-use. you continue to draw every frame for every ep every week.

you sir are definately a pro!

hehehe. piro - i = pro!! tongue.gif happy.gif

well as to the story going slow. well thats an excelent technique also. but focusing on the smaller aspects of the MT world Fred is letting us get close to whats really going on and get close to the charactors! it may take along time for a story to get along but its a better story for it. if fred were to just rap up a whole section of the story in 1 comic less people would come back, we all come back to read MT to see whats happened, as fred leaves a question at the end of almost all the comics.

when will it end? i hope never, but as we all know fred cant keep doing MT forever, he will move on eventually, but with anyluck he will continue on for a while to go yet. and with any luck... one day there may be MT anime for all us fans!!

keep up the good work Fred!!

This post has been edited by BaLRoG on Apr 9 2004, 04:05 AM
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umboody
Posted: Apr 9 2004, 04:12 AM
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QUOTE (BaLRoG @ Apr 9 2004, 04:03 AM)
when will it end? i hope never, but as we all know fred cant keep doing MT forever, he will move on eventually, but with anyluck he will continue on for a while to go yet. and with any luck... one day there may be MT anime for all us fans!!

Couldn't agree more. I'll be sad at the day when Megatokyo ends for whatever reason. The storyline is slow for a reason, and if you aren't realising the changes in the characters, then you just need to pay more attention to the things that make the story slow, the attention to detail.
Thanks Fred for a great many hours reading your work. I think most of us here would consider you to be a pro, if a very modest one! You say in an interview with Digital Anime, you consider yourself not to be a professional because you only do what you want to do. You say you're stubborn, but it's people like this who change the world, the people who go against the flow or the norm of society to do what they think is best and to change lives because of it. I certainly think you are a professional because of this.

[edit] Anime Digital did an interview with Fred and Sarah. One of the topics discussed was about this "I don't like what you do". Have a look at it at Fred's interview [/edit]

This post has been edited by umboody on Apr 9 2004, 04:41 AM
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BaLRoG
Posted: Apr 9 2004, 04:59 AM
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thats a really good interview, thanx for the link. that offers a good insight into why fred does what he does and extends greatly on what hes already told us in this topic. a very good read!!
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