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> Still Not Fair...
Merekat
Posted: Aug 24 2006, 12:41 AM
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So weíve had an influx of a lot of new people here lately. And with the old Not Fair thread being retired for size, I suppose itís no great surprise that the forum seems to think the rules donít apply. After all, since when has anyone ever read the forum rules when joining a new place?

And since everyone I know has a short attention span, Iím going to make this particular post here rather brief. This new sticky thread is going to be here (until it gets so big I have to clean house again) where new people and old can be reminded of the basic foundational rules on which this forum runs. It will also be a place for concerned citizens to address publicly issues they feel affects all of Art and Drawing and would like to discuss in a civilized manner their ideas and suggestions. This does not mean this thread becomes a bitchfest or trollhaven. We are a community working toward bettering ourselves and everyone else here through art and discussion of relevant topics. So if you have questions or ideas you would like to bring up for ways to improve the community, feel free to comment here. If you are just going to scream at people, Iíll have to put on my mod hat and bring out the Great Newspaper of Smacking +5.

Finally, as a gentle reminder, these are SOME of the guaranteed enforced rules of expected conduct:
  • This is a LEARNING forum. If you donít want to improve yourself and help your fellow forum members improve themselves, then get out.
  • Ego posting is not allowed. If you post your work, expect to get critiques and expect to apply those critiques either to the work posted or to the next work you create. No exceptions.
  • New threads containing artwork will have at least an hourís effort of minimal quality (read the offical rules page for what 'minimal quality' is) in the art piece. The only exception to this is if you do many gesture or study sketches, the combined effort of which is two hours or more. Do not think a slew of stickfigures or effortless crap is going to cut it.
  • You will be courteous and helpful when critiquing others in the forum. Everyone here needs to learn something about art and critiquing and that includes you. So don't lord things over others if they are not up to the level of quality you think they should be. If you have the ability to help someone grow, do so. If you have the chance to learn something from someone else, do so.
  • When posting critiques on artwork, the post will contain well thought out commentary and suggestions for improving the work. If you do not have suggestions but wish to give compliments, spend the time typing up a paragraph or two explaining precisely WHY you enjoy the art and how you think the artist was effective in the piece. One-phrase critiques or a couple sentence responses are NOT acceptable.
  • If I assign you homework, yes, you have to do it.
  • If you have a debate, discussion or question topic to post, make sure you search the forum prior to posting to make sure the topic hasnít already been answered several times. If you post a question, first refer to the official rules thread to see itís not a clichť question (IE how do I host my artwork? how should I present my comic art without being a pimp? hi there! Iím new and Iíll post art when I get a scanner!).
  • Read All of the Official Art and Drawing Rules Thread! This also has in it, for your convenience at no extra charge, an entire authentic replication of the original 'No, it's not fair...' thread. Read it. Yes, all of it. Yes, you have to. No, I donít care that itís that long. Yes, you have to anyway. No, Iím not going to summarize for you.
Aight? Good. Donít forget, Iím still locking threads if they donít measure up. Things didnít go back to the easy way just because the old Not Fair thread was taken down. ;P You guys were doing great with crits and improving your art. This forum is well on its way to being a great resource for learning. Keep it up.

This post has been edited by Merekat on Aug 24 2006, 01:12 AM
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limacat
Posted: Aug 24 2006, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE (Merekat @ Aug 24 2006, 12:41 AM)

  • New threads containing artwork will have at least an hourís effort of minimal quality (read the offical rules page for what 'minimal quality' is) in the art piece. The only exception to this is if you do many gesture or study sketches, the combined effort of which is two hours or more. Do not think a slew of stickfigures or effortless crap is going to cut it.

Now sketchbooks pictures combined require at least two hours of effort in them. Right? From the wording before it seemed that only the hour still applied. (Of course, with the quality research). I think either you or Kit want to update the wording about times on the rules thread too smile.gif



This post has been edited by limacat on Aug 24 2006, 11:27 AM
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morningglory
Posted: Aug 24 2006, 11:21 AM
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I don't think its important to start nitpicking on times lol. Alot of artists can put out a quality sketch in less then an hour. Some of the best can do amazing art in less then an hour.
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Merekat
Posted: Aug 24 2006, 01:01 PM
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sure they can. but most of those artists draw constantly and incessantly. I'm preventing spammers and sketches that take more time to critique than they did to draw.

so yes, the hour's rule applies. if the one sketch you did was less than an hour, you better have another two or three along with it. the name of the game is effort, peeps. gotsta try.

and read the original not fair thread. I don't think you're quite grasping why it's necessary in this forum yet and that thread will explain a lot of things. the link for it is in the official rules thread. ;}

I know new people don't know what depths this forum once sank to. just know these rules are here for a reason. and they work.
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spoonifur
Posted: Aug 24 2006, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE (morningglory @ Aug 24 2006, 01:21 PM)
I don't think its important to start nitpicking on times lol. Alot of artists can put out a quality sketch in less then an hour. Some of the best can do amazing art in less then an hour.

It's not about how fast people draw, it's about fixing it up, and trying to find all your mistakes which can take you about an hour of re-draw. ):

That's when you come to the forum for crituqe. To find anything you missed.

Right?
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Dannthr
Posted: Aug 24 2006, 10:49 PM
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If you can complete a nifty sketch in less than an hour, so what? I'd rather see what you can do in an hour.

It's about working on your own level.

It's about working.


I probably would've gone for "Still Not Fair"

- Dan

Merekat comment: AH! See, I was looking for that title... thanks. Been hard lately, mucho busyo at worko.

This post has been edited by Merekat on Aug 25 2006, 10:43 AM
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MarcinP
Posted: Sep 3 2006, 07:31 AM
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I am a bit scared of some new people who come around and start praising everything and everyone in any new thread.
They seem like they belong to some other forum/community that does not tollerate critique when posting that wandered here.
It gets annoying at some point (especially when afterwards someone comes in with some real critique but his words of wisdom get lost among these "orgasmic" replies - no offense please) but hopefully it's not a new trend.

No, that's not a general complaint, I also see some new people that look promissing that started comming in recently.
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Dannthr
Posted: Sep 3 2006, 08:57 AM
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The rules say they have to address the critiques by their next thread. Whether they accepted or rejected them, that must show through.

If the critiques were ignored, we just need to remind them of the rules and give them the chance to make good.

If they ignore me two or three times I give up on them. I just stop giving them any advice and if they want to wallow in their complacency that's their problem.

No need to waste time on people who just refuse to listen to you.
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Merekat
Posted: Sep 3 2006, 11:09 AM
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they're still supposed to improve or show effort that they are attempting to improve. if they refuse to take critique and improve over several attempts to help them and point out the rules of the land, then they are in poor standing with the forum rules and will be locked until they start putting in the effort.

I do believe that was a specific bulleted point in the original Not Fair rant which everyone I'm sure has thoroughly read from the link I put at the top of this thread. ;} no? ;}

This post has been edited by Merekat on Sep 3 2006, 11:10 AM
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Zeplix
Posted: Nov 23 2006, 05:17 PM
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Hmm, its been a while since I posted here... anyway, I have a question:

"Ego posting is not allowed."
Am I understanding correctly, that posting content simply for sharing with others, is not allowed?
Now of course, one would expect, or hope, to get some kind of critique on it... but if the main purpose of the post was to share an image that you think you did really nicely on, it is not allowed?
I'm a student... preparing to get into Design School to be exact, and I have more than my share of things to see to already, I may not be able to directly take into practice what someone told me, at least not right now, or may never do a picture simply for the purpose of testing out someone's advice.

Another question!
"If I assign you homework, yes, you have to do it."
This is almost a repost of the things I said above... my time is limited... I already have my share of homework to prepare. If you suddenly decide to tell me to do something, I'll get banned if I dont?

I've read through the thread linked, but these still seemed unanswered to me, or I didn't understand them correctly.

Edit:
And did I just break the "Necromancy" rule? sad.gif

This post has been edited by Zeplix on Nov 23 2006, 05:19 PM
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Jeffu
Posted: Nov 23 2006, 05:42 PM
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Zeplix: As far as I know, ego posting refers to people that post things solely to share their work, as opposed to those who post to get critiques in order to improve. It's fine as long as you intend to take critiques seriously, from what I've seen.

As for your second question, I know some people who have very busy schedules still do their homework. If you can only manage a hour or two per week, it's fine; what matters is that you actually do it.
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Merekat
Posted: Nov 24 2006, 12:47 PM
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zeplix: I know it may seem hyper-strict that this forum doesn't allow for posting art for the sake of art, but this is to focus the threads to the point of usefullness. Sure, seeing the work of pros and masters would be great, but largely no one here would post that. So they would post their own work just to show, and there are plenty of sites out there that are just galleries. ...However, there are not too many sites that try to be teaching forums. Now if you can organize a thread to show some work of a master artist in debate, you can post pictures to show if it's for learning and discussion. But in order to keep things on track, ego posts had to be removed.

As a student, I would think a place that would help you improve your work without a fee or in most cases grades would be desirable. It is not always practical to change a final project based off critique, but knowing where there could be improvement is invaluable information for the next piece. Applying the lesson to the next piece means simply whatever you do, keep the crits for things you can work on in mind and try them out.

For example, if you were told that you hide hands and your anatomy looks stiff, then next time you draw a character, perhaps try to explore a different kind of pose, get some reference and try to improve. This doesn't mean you have to draw something you absolutely don't want to, this means you have to draw with the idea of learning something in addition to having fun.

Now as for the homework from me, well that's a risk you'll have to take. ;} I know all about being busy. I draw for a living and still find the occasional time to type to you peeps and hold classes to teach different things. Homework doesn't have to be done within 24 hours, it can be an ongoing learning experience. If you need to work on landscapes, then doing the homework can be adding them to whatever character pieces you're going to attempt. I'm not going to assign things you can't use or won't help you on a global scale. But yes, you have to do it. ;}

It's all a matter of attitude. Are you here to art or not? :}
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CoreysMonster
Posted: Dec 14 2006, 12:19 PM
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QUOTE (Merekat @ Nov 24 2006, 12:47 PM)
Sure, seeing the work of pros and masters would be great, but largely no one here would post that.

Oh, so THAT's why I never see any of your art on here, ey Merekat? wink.gif (great job on the avatar, btw, hope you meant it when you said you don't mind people using it)


But to that statement about just sharing: I find that I learn a lot from just looking at other peoples drawings. Let's say someone really talented like Eiffel posts his art. How are we supposed to critique him? He has no real flaws that can be pointed out on base of art/proportion/etc. rules. Since there can only be so much asscrawlery (tongue.gif) and any critiques are based mostly on personal preferance, and cannot really help him progress much, threads that have great art like his slowly fall into oblivion. Shouldn't there be a like a "Gallery of MT" thread, where the mods post the pieces of art they think are really from "masters" or whatever, so that we can have a collection of role-models from the board for the board? Just an idea.
Sorry if this is the wrong place for suggestions. I felt that this was something that fell more into the mods of the art forum's category than Fred's.

This post has been edited by CoreysMonster on Dec 14 2006, 12:20 PM
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Merekat
Posted: Dec 14 2006, 07:19 PM
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hehe thank you for that compliment.

actually you don't see my art here because I don't do anything to post. I work 8-10 hours a day being creative at my day job and then am working on my book that will be a far more indepth version of the character class in my off time, while trying to get off the computer and not think about art at some point during the day so I don't rip up my arms from mousework so bad I'll suffer the next day at the office. between that and the occasional helping out of a friend for a commission, I don't have any time to work on things, the fact I get any work on my book is a significant thing.

the only things i do have that I am able to post are the life drawings I do somewhat weekly from models. I'll post that when I get my scanner up. ;}

as far as critiques go, there are always things to critique on an artwork, no matter how good you think they are. even Eiffel, me or anyone else you think is at a level that doesn't need comment. perhaps it's more of a direction that you critique more on how effectively they pulled off their goals. for example, if I post something for design critique and the anatomy is off, then sure, if I put more time in it, I could correct the anatomy but the point of the drawing was how well the design turned out. that piece still needs critique (possibly even on anatomy) but especially on the design level. it's a matter of you yourself changing how you look at a piece, about learning and teaching yourself how to view a work more critically and evolving your understanding so you can be more educated when it comes to critique.

that doesn't mean the work isn't suitable for critique. that means you'll be learning just as much in critiquing it as the person who posted did in receiving the critique.

so for that end, we don't need a gallery of MT (particularly because we have enough stickies up there) but also because I don't like the idea of creating an area for art where you guys might think it's unapproachable. even the masters must be critically studied. and by that I mean a lot of people who have been dead for a couple hundred years.

though the idea of having some sort of... debate thread. maybe a weekly or monthly thread where a master is chosen and discussed critically. that's not a bad idea. let me ponder on it.

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Miss Wiggle
Posted: Dec 15 2006, 05:39 PM
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Perhaps we could go farther than discussion. What if we all collectively picked artwork to pieces to try and see just what made the picture? (like composition, process, etc)

I do this on my own, but in a group setting, I think that we could all learn more. Perhaps at the end, those participating could have the opportunity to apply what they've learned as well and post the results.

This post has been edited by Miss Wiggle on Dec 15 2006, 05:40 PM
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Merekat
Posted: Dec 15 2006, 05:50 PM
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I like it. that was definitely a nuance of debate over a picture. hell, we could rotate topics or apply theories, comparing various works.

suggestions about organizing this? scheduling? options? focus?
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Miss Wiggle
Posted: Dec 15 2006, 10:02 PM
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What I think:

Much of it really depends on how much time the mods want to devote to this. Do you guys want to run it completely, or leave it open to members? How out of control would it get without a constant nurturing iron fist?

As for scheduling, I think it would probably depend on degree of participation. Maybe you could try weekly or bi-weekly activities. It would kind of depend on how in depth we got and how devoted participants were.

Image selection is also important. Maybe there could be a temporary thread made where members suggest pictures they would like to eventually critique. Then, the moderators, or whoever runs this, could have a nice selection of hopefully varied images in addition to anything else they think participants could benefit from.

Establishing the angle of the critique would be important too. Members could take turns directing the critique or it could be left completely to whoever runs this. OR, in the image suggestion thread, they could suggest an angle along with their picture.

Here's a question, though. After participants critiqued and drew pictures of their own, would you want them posting them as images or links within that thread, or do you think that would matter at all? Keeping the reference image and the resulting posted images seperate might draw focus to one over the other. What would be the focus? The studied picture, or the studies? Or does it matter?
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scallywag
Posted: Dec 16 2006, 07:36 PM
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I think that's a great idea. Here's how I would do it (feel free to disagree):

Rather than just debate though I would suggest a re-creation. Pick a landscape by Turner, or a portait by Singer, or a ink render by John R. Neill or whatever (political cartoons, ink etchings, watercolours, why not?). Then let everyone try to replicate it. Then everyone who has tried can talk about what they feel they got right and wrong.

It's a two-part idea. First you try, then you discuss it. The fact that you have tried gives you plenty of material and motivation to discuss your and other's efforts.

Run it as a benign dictatorship (which would require some investment of time from a mod or other MTA&D heavy-hitter). Monthly perhaps with next month's project being assigned at the start of each month.

Yes? No?
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CoreysMonster
Posted: Dec 17 2006, 02:06 PM
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For the discussion of "master's artwork", I would suggest the following:

1. having an era-based theme (i.e. rennasaince, surrealism etc.)

2. 3 (or something) pictures from that era are chosen (by mods or through a voting thread)

3. in the debate thread, I would suggest a submitting of one or two composition sketches of each picture (as opposed to actually recreating the whole thing. Basically, you just need to get a basic idea of dynamics and such in the picture)

4. now the thread would have some sort of foundation. Now I would suggest making very clear that the thread is for an analytical and seriously thought-through opinion discussion. That is, it's not where people come and say "meh, it's t3h suxx0r5" or "I 5uch 4 n00b to 7h47", if you catch my drift. It should be more like a discussion considering the way impressions are received, what in the picture induces these impressions etc. Like why Munch's "Scream" is so disturbing, what makes us perceive the image as such a strange one, like colors, shapes, etc.

5. at the beginning, since it would be a new thing, it would have to be under mod surveillance to make sure it doesn't get out of hand, and to make sure that it doesn't turn into a flame fest. I don't think it would be too big of a problem here, though.

6. If it works out, every 2 weeks (or however long), the theme is changed, and pictures from a different era are chosen. That way, viewers would gradually be introduced to different art forms, and would be able to comment on them and actually think about them.

This is the way I would go about it. Personally, I think it's a great idea to have a "Discussion Of The Masters" thread.
Oh, and I would really go for the "different eras" idea. My art instructor used a similar structure in his art classes, that way everyone was forced to analyze and really think about different eras, thus being exposed to a very wide range of styles. That's kind of a problem with many young artists, they (yes, I was also one) want to draw manga and then ONLY draw manga, without realizing that manga artists are usually very all-rounded artists. It's good to give people like that extra exposure (it worked for me smile.gif )

This post has been edited by CoreysMonster on Dec 17 2006, 02:11 PM
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Merekat
Posted: Dec 17 2006, 02:23 PM
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I'd like to see how well the forum can run itself on this idea for a while. Not that I won't be chiming in or overseeing so it doesn't get out of hand, but I don't have the time right now to really devote to leading it. I may in the future.

I like your idea a lot, corey, I would suggest that the participants should submit what they think the relationships are in the composition, not just the mod or whoever is posting the image.

I also agree with scallywag in that recreation is also a splendid idea and we should have that be some of the goals for different weeks as well.

Miss Wiggle has a great idea for the temporary thread for suggestions of images and angles to discuss. We definitely could do this bi-weekly if that was the case. And I do like that folks would create their own versions of it or recreations/lessons etc. I would like to keep it compact and put it in the main thread with the resource. This method seemed to work well enough with the character class, I think we can handle it again. And I do think that posting in the thread shouldn't take too much focus away from the goal when we critique the image. As we will be referring to the image when we critique the participant's submissions, both should keep themselves on topic relatively well and monitor each other.

Alright, I'll speak with the other mods and ponder how we can keep this going. If you guys have more suggestions that will make the process easier and not mire the mods in work while still being effective, then please let us know. ;} It can only help.
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Miss Wiggle
Posted: Dec 17 2006, 07:47 PM
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*thinks some more*

So, start a temporary thread, have everyone post suggestions, eventually lock it so it doesn't get annoying. Then, make the critique thread with the first image. Let members pick it apart and post what they think. Then, members apply what they learned and post the results.

With that structure, you really could do what corey or scallywag were suggesting. Study the masters along with newer artists. Some weeks we could leave it open for the participants to try and replicate process, while in other weeks, try and replicate the picture itself as best they can. We really can be very flexible with this.

With that in place, the only thing really left to do is establish who will post the pictures to be critiqued. We could just take turns (assuming everyone is civil). Or, if you don't like democracy, a group of people could be nominated to run the entire thing and they can take turns doing it. Whatever is easier for the mods to deal with.
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Zaxser
Posted: Dec 17 2006, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (CoreysMonster @ Dec 17 2006, 08:06 PM)
For the discussion of "master's artwork", I would suggest the following:

1. having an era-based theme (i.e. rennasaince, surrealism etc.)


Please let's do Rococo. Please let's do Rococo. Please let's do Rococo.

QUOTE
2. 3 (or something) pictures from that era are chosen (by mods or through a voting thread)


Please?

This post has been edited by Zaxser on Dec 17 2006, 08:06 PM
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CoreysMonster
Posted: Dec 18 2006, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE (Zaxser @ Dec 17 2006, 08:05 PM)
Please let's do Rococo. Please let's do Rococo. Please let's do Rococo.


Oh, come on. Who honestly likes pomp? wink.gif



I'd suggest keeping the people who choose pictures to a (relatively) small elite that actually know what they're doing, or else you'll have n00bs coming with "look at 'the masturbator', it's a really awesome baroque painting!" rolleyes.gif
I'm not saying to keep the choosing jury static, more like having mods add different people who they think qualify enough to know more or less which painting belongs in which era. At the beginning, I think mods should take care of it, until people get more used to the idea.
But other than that I can't think of anything else that would make the thread run smoother.
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wei_wu_wei
Posted: Dec 18 2006, 10:25 AM
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QUOTE (CoreysMonster @ Dec 18 2006, 08:47 AM)

I'd suggest keeping the people who choose pictures to a (relatively) small elite that actually know what they're doing, or else you'll have n00bs coming with "look at 'the masturbator', it's a really awesome baroque painting!" :rolleyes:
I'm not saying to keep the choosing jury static, more like having mods add different people who they think qualify enough to know more or less which painting belongs in which era. At the beginning, I think mods should take care of it, until people get more used to the idea.

I really like the idea of a "study the masters/eras" series, but have to say that I think the above is a bad idea. Suddenly you'd have an "upper class" of forumites, which I think is one of the things this forum has been trying to avoid (from my observations, at least). Less "The worthless n00bs cannot contribute here" and more of a shared experience.

Sure, there will be people who don't know what they're doing, but who's to say that we can turn the "image selection" process into a learning experience as well? That way those of us who are interested in art, but aren't too up on the "Taxonomy" of art could feel welcome to participate and learn.

As per your example, here's how I would envision the temp image selection thread (per Miss Wiggle):

- Facilitator (OP): "Hey all, Welcome to the Study the masters thread blah blah! This session we'll be looking at the Baroque period. It was influential in yadda yadda. Here's what makes a piece "Baroque": {posts explanation}, here are some examples of what we're talking about {posts img links}. Ready, Go!"

- Beginner (couple of posts down): "Hey, take a look at 'the masturbator', it's a really awesome baroque painting!"

- Facilitator (in response): Not quite there, dude. That's more of an example of a -blah- painting. Here's why. {posts reasons why}. Get the picture?

- Beginner (in response): "Oh I gotcha. How about..."

Well, probably not exactly that way, but in a perfect world. You get the picture. Just my two cents.

-- Wei
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CoreysMonster
Posted: Dec 18 2006, 12:46 PM
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I was mainly suggesting it for the beginning, when it's new to everyone.
But in the long run... hmm... I guess you have a point.

What does Merekat or some other mod think?
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Miss Wiggle
Posted: Dec 18 2006, 05:47 PM
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Wei:

Yeah, that kind of thing is why I think that there should be some sort of structure. There needs to be a set system of posting the next image, otherwise people who haven't been reading into all this will just pop up and be tossing new ref images left and right and before you know it, everyone explodes.

Trust me on the exploding part. smile.gif

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scallywag
Posted: Dec 18 2006, 06:04 PM
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Have a list of a half dozen "upcoming images". Anyone can propose images but the thread leader (mod or otherwise) decides what gets on the short list. It's more inclusive but puts the breaks on the exploding bit.

Also people can do their homwwork in advance (yeah, right)...
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Miss Wiggle
Posted: Dec 18 2006, 09:03 PM
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We could just have one person just simply start it and run it for awhile, then kind of pass the baton. It could be a casual kind of thing. Participating in this thread will also take effort and thought, which might just scare some of the more annoying n00bs away so we don't have teo worry about the thread turning stupid.

:b
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Merekat
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 01:40 PM
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just to give you a brief update, we mods like the idea, we're just figuring out the logistics and how to pull it off yet maintain our sanity. ;}

look for this class as soon as we do. ;}
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Miss Wiggle
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 04:16 PM
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Sweet. Count me in on participation. I hope you guys pull it off well.
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CoreysMonster
Posted: Dec 25 2006, 10:17 AM
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Count me in as well. If you need anything, help or whatever, don't hesitate to PM me.
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Jeffu
Posted: Dec 25 2006, 07:54 PM
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stop poking me :(
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Can't add much aside from a 'I really like this idea' ...

Looking forward to it!
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CherryBlossom
Posted: Dec 26 2006, 06:46 AM
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I like the idea of anually analyzing/discussing Masters' artwork brewing here smile.gif And yeah, it would defo help the younger ones broaden their horizons and look at (hell, maybe even practice) types of art outside the world of Manga.

Man, I used to be one of those people, but after a kick up the butt and leaving it all I've improved loads since. Really hopin' people here will be the same too.

Will try and do my part when I can...
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kagomekeg
Posted: Dec 26 2006, 07:33 PM
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THIS IS AN AWESOME IDEA!!!!! I have only one concern, I think that it will detereorate into a "what counts as art" or "what is art supposed to accomplish" kind of debate. There are a slew of pieces that are generally accepted by all, but then you start to get into murky waters when you get into modernism and post-modernism. I think that this form of discussion will be awesome and I will throw in my two cents constantly, but I think we all need to be prepared for heated debate when we get around to artists like Motherwell and Pollock. I will greatly look forward to the start of this.
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Cobalt
Posted: May 7 2007, 07:41 PM
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I figure since this is stickied it'd be alright if I posted in it, even though it's been months... I was just wondering a little something about this "Masters' Artwork" idea, would one be able to use any medium to their liesure to attempt said recreation, or would I have to use the same/ similar mediums to what the original might be made of?
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Zaxser
Posted: May 9 2007, 02:43 AM
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You aren't supposed to recreate the masters work- depending on how you define it, that would be simple, too-easy-with-very-little-learning-involved copying or way-too-difficult mastery of media, light, form and the like, which would take at least twenty years.

What you're supposed to is attempt the assignment given to you. The idea is that integrate one aspect of Master's work that creates/ created a truly unique "style." If it mentions media, go for it. If it doesn't, then you might still want to work in the same media, but it's not stipulated. Only work in a medium that truly lets you reach the goal you want while following the prompt. If you can learn more/ produce a better finished product/ better achieve the effect stipulated in the prompt using a certain media, use that media.

Of course, this is from a guy whose never actually submitted anything into those, so... you might want to ask somebody else. unsure.gif
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Althor Enchantor
Posted: Sep 28 2007, 03:19 PM
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I have two issues I'd like to discuss with regards to the Art and Drawing forum.

First off, I'm finding this area to be fairly unfriendly to true newbies. Perhaps I missed something, but most of the tutorials seem to assume a certain level of artistic ability; that is to say, ANY artistic ability. Barring a single course in Technical Drawing (or as I refer to it, "Manual CAD"), I have no experience with drawing at all. While I'm certain that all the lessons in character design are very helpful to artists struggling with improving their existing skills, I'm not sure where learning process helps someone that's still having incredible difficulty drawing symmetric eyes, head-shaped heads, or hair, well, at all. If someone else hasn't done so already, I hereby submit for discussion the idea of a Remedial Art Tutorial.

Secondly, there was something I found in Merekat's Art Process Boot Camp that I would like to debate.

QUOTE
Oh, but lemme guess. You guys are drawing anime! Whell, that certainly negates anything Iím trying to teach you. Wrong. Most of you know this, but every single really great anime artist out there has incredibly strong foundations in fine art and anatomy. They draw anime out of choice, not out of necessity. They can draw anything they want, any style they want. And they pull from all of those lessons, those tidbits of information, those rules and tips and tricks to create a simplified and exaggerated presentation of reality: I.E. anime.


While I understand your point, not everyone necessarily wishes to become a well-rounded and trained artist. As an example, when it comes to expressing myself creatively, I consider myself a writer first and last. Were I to learn to draw, it would never be more than a hobby for me, or perhaps at best the means to produce a webcomic without outside help. In the former case, a well-rounded artistic foundation is not necessary at all, and in the latter, I have my abilities as a writer to fall back on. The art would simply be a means of visually conveying inflection and exposition for my writing. Knowing how to draw passably would be necessary; knowing how to actually draw WELL would perhaps be less so.

I don't know, thoughts?
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Gandhi
Posted: Sep 29 2007, 04:57 AM
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Althor - one of the main aims of this forum is to raise people's artistic aspirations beyond mediocrity. Anyone can settle for less than they're capable of out of apathy if they so choose, and there are plenty of forums out there where they can go and do that quite happily, but the idea is that his forum is not a place to be satisfied with half measures.

It takes a certain aspect of mind Ė a healthy unsentimental detachment and a brutal will to face criticism and respond to it, in order to push ahead. Certainly this will not be for everyone. Many will find it intimidating, but that's OK. Who wants a forum of the lowest common denominator anyway?

On the other hand things aren't *that* strict. It's not like there's some kind of draconian quality control. Granted people tend to say the same sort of things a lot but that's just the way it goes. It doesn't matter that much. If you have a certain objective for your drawing, and would like help working towards it, then you do it.
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meristele
Posted: Sep 29 2007, 09:33 AM
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QUOTE (Althor Enchantor @ Sep 28 2007, 03:19 PM)
I'm finding this area to be fairly unfriendly to true newbies. Perhaps I missed something, but most of the tutorials seem to assume a certain level of artistic ability; that is to say, ANY artistic ability...I'm not sure where learning process helps someone that's still having incredible difficulty drawing symmetric eyes, head-shaped heads, or hair, well, at all. If someone else hasn't done so already, I hereby submit for discussion the idea of a Remedial Art Tutorial.

If you're interested in just starting, there's lots of advice that is helpful posted on the forum. While most of the people here live extremely busy lives, if you had just put up a thread about how or where to get started- I think there would be a lot of responses.

Mere has a link to a thread that is particularly inspirational. I haven't saved it, but here's putting out the call: Will someone please post the link in this thread if it's not here already? The four or five year thread of one person's progress, yes?

I understand your view on the remedial tutorial. It might be nice to have here except for one thing. There are so many extremely good books already out there for getting started. I'd rather recommend something that I know works well and use my limited time for improving my drawing and giving other people (hopefully) helpful nudges.

You don't even need to buy the book. Many local libraries have them. I suggest The Natural Way to Draw by Nicolaides and Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain by Edwards.

Look at one of the books. Draw one of the exercises. Post it here. Take the critique seriously. I presume, as a writer, that you have experience taking critiques with a professional demeanor...?

On the subject of artistic mediocrity- "Good enough" is a subjective term. You are free to set it wherever you like.
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Zaxser
Posted: Nov 22 2007, 08:31 AM
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QUOTE (meristele @ Sep 29 2007, 03:33 PM)
Mere has a link to a thread that is particularly inspirational. I haven't saved it, but here's putting out the call: Will someone please post the link in this thread if it's not here already? The four or five year thread of one person's progress, yes?
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jimthegreat1012
Posted: Dec 31 2007, 12:16 AM
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Thanks Zaxser, that's the most amazing link I've ever received. I'm going to start a thread like that tomorrow. :'3
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vazilization
Posted: Oct 12 2008, 02:02 AM
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Unregistered









first, i'm sorry for a very bad spelling and grammar. Not yet mastering english

Basically, i got marekat points. i've been posting in a very-very-very not professional forum. when some member posting their arts, other members just give "cool" or "great" comments and that sucks coz his arts sucks and he call 'em art. And when i suggest 'em what they got to do, i socially expelld from the community. I prefer a very strict rule given by mod like how we should post a comment and how we should behave coz it's gonna make us better even it'll be painful haha. But i didn't understand bout some points. like, ego posting not allowd. what's that supposd to mean? like, could i post my artwork, and yes i want critiques and knowing how people seeing my artwork. and about homeworks, it's very helpful especially coming from someone who understand art more then we do, but like other people before me, some people don't have enough time.

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Phalmy
Posted: Dec 31 2008, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE (Zaxser @ Nov 22 2007, 05:31 PM)
QUOTE
Mere has a link to a thread that is particularly inspirational. I haven't saved it, but here's putting out the call: Will someone please post the link in this thread if it's not here already? The four or five year thread of one person's progress, yes?

That's pretty cool.

I think I've only ever posted in A&D once or twice; I'm no artist. But it looks like a fun thing to try. I couldn't churn out something every day, but weekly would be reasonable. All you Supar Artistes get to grind the Critique Axe periodically, and I learn how to draw (sort of). If there's someone who's thinking the same thing, we could treat it as a challenge, and keep an eye on one another, so that if one of us starts to slip the other(s) kick them back into gear.

Takers?
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NevilleLeck
  Posted: Feb 25 2010, 03:04 AM
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I like it. that was definitely a nuance of debate over a picture
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sandyshimp
Posted: Jun 26 2010, 12:07 PM
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Thanks for sharing the information.I have bookmarked your post and reply you soon.
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jourd
Posted: Aug 8 2010, 08:47 PM
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This is good topic.. Still not fair for someone who it shows there some good abilities.
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MothMask
Posted: Apr 22 2011, 10:18 PM
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I'm not sure if this is really the best place to be asking a question, but I couldn't find anywhere better, so...
I want to post a couple of pictures, but when I try to make a new topic, it tells me that I'm not allowed to. I haven't done anything since joining besides setting my avatar, siggy, and such, so I doubt I've done anything against the rules. I'm sorry if there's some glaringly obvious reason that I've missed, but could anyone tell me why I can't make a new topic?

This post has been edited by MothMask on Apr 22 2011, 10:23 PM
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Sajomir
Posted: Apr 22 2011, 10:32 PM
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holy crap I have a custom title?
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It's possible you need to make a couple replies and (ideally) make some thoughtful comments before making your own threads.

It's also possible there's just a time lockout. To be honest I don't know anymore :x
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MothMask
Posted: Apr 22 2011, 10:36 PM
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QUOTE (Sajomir @ Apr 23 2011, 12:32 AM)
It's possible you need to make a couple replies and (ideally) make some thoughtful comments before making your own threads.

It's also possible there's just a time lockout. To be honest I don't know anymore :x

Thank you! I'll try that.
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