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> Voice-acting Skill
arimareiji
Posted: Mar 27 2017, 09:29 PM
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So, I'm curious. If preferring Japanese voice actors (on average) and believing that they have a great deal more vocal control and emotive range than American voice actors (again, on average) is "bigotry"... does that mean everyone who watched the embarrassing results of basketball in the 1992 Olympics and believes that the American team was given the gold in accordance with the rules is a "bigot"? Or that those who think the efforts of the 1988 Jamaican bobsled team were heartwarming and admirable, but went in the face of extreme odds, are also "bigots"?

I have little doubt this will get moved out of sight despite it being true that practically speaking, most of the forum boards are DOA (or just short thereof). But I believe the most intellectually-honest thing to do was posting it on one of the few boards where it might add something for public discussion, which is why I did so.
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Murren
Posted: Mar 28 2017, 12:53 AM
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QUOTE (arimareiji @ Mar 27 2017, 07:29 PM)
So, I'm curious. If preferring Japanese voice actors (on average) and believing that they have a great deal more vocal control and emotive range than American voice actors (again, on average) is "bigotry"... does that mean everyone who watched the embarrassing results of basketball in the 1992 Olympics and believes that the American team was given the gold in accordance with the rules is a "bigot"? Or that those who think the efforts of the 1988 Jamaican bobsled team were heartwarming and admirable, but went in the face of extreme odds, are also "bigots"?

I have little doubt this will get moved out of sight despite it being true that practically speaking, most of the forum boards are DOA (or just short thereof). But I believe the most intellectually-honest thing to do was posting it on one of the few boards where it might add something for public discussion, which is why I did so.

This sounds like a loaded/rhetorical question... tongue.gif because the answer seems pretty obvious to me.

In other words, I do not think it's bigoted to prefer Japanese voice actors to American voice actors, but I think you have to be fluent in both languages to be qualified to make that judgment. I can't say I prefer one over the other, because I essentially don't know any Japanese. I enjoy watching anime with Japanese voice actors, and I also enjoy watching English dubs. I usually watch the Japanese ones because 1) sometimes there is no English dub, and even if there is, 2) I feel like the Japanese voices are truly the characters' original voices, but I guess from that standpoint, you could consider the English voices to be just another take on that character which theoretically could be more well-done than the Japanese one. But regardless of that I stil kind of prefer that idea of "originality". And 3) I like foreign languages, so I like trying to pick up on random Japanese.

There are my two cents.

And I guess I discussed this in the strict context of anime even though you did not mention anime at all and therefore probably weren't talking about anime exclusively.

Also, that is an interesting analogy you brought up at least about the US Olympic Basketball team. It is an interesting analogy, because the higher skill level of the US basketball team can be absolutely measured by the fact that they won by about 40 points each game. (I don't know that much about the Jamaican bobsled team so I can't say much about that). But the higher skill level of a voice actor is a much less objective judgment, and therefore cannot be compared as easily as 2 basketball teams can.

I'm kind of adding on to my post rather than editing it...

But I would say that, if you say you prefer Japanese voice actors over American voice actors for the reasons you described, if you can provide numerous examples and can explain what elements of their performances were better, then no that's not bigoted. Depending on if you provided a lot of evidence, I can see why people might perceive it as bigoted. But if you have the supporting evidence, then no it's not bigoted. It is a personal preference.

Thinking about it now I don't see how the US basketball analogy really works, because if you take their average margin of victory over each team in all 8 games (or so) of their tournament, they won by an average of about 40 points. A 40 point victory is an absolute crushing of the other team, and with a reasonable sample size of 8 games, they were pretty demonstrably that much better than everyone else.

So I feel like a basketball team comparison (at least with an 8 game sample size) is a lot more empirical than the judgment of which voice actor is better than another. It's difficult because in a context which is not an exclusively competitive context, it's not as clear-cut who is "better".

I kind of jumped around and talked about various things, but in short, I do think it is possible to provide very fair, reasonable judgments of the quality of a person's voice acting, and if you can provide those judgments and analysis of examples that led you to a conclusion such as, for instance, that Japanese voice actors have more vocal control and emotive range than American voice actors, then no that's not bigoted.

Edit: Also, I technically didn't answer your questions. Technically something like "yes, and yes" would be a direct answer to your post haha.

This post has been edited by Murren on Mar 28 2017, 01:03 AM
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Mamma Peach
Posted: Mar 28 2017, 10:51 AM
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If a person preferred Japanese voice actors for anime, that wouldn't be bigoted as it is completely compatible with the genre and its national origin. However to say that Japanese voice actors "have a great deal more vocal control and emotive range than American voice actors" would be bigoted. Granted, there are probably a lot more voice actors in Japan than America (judging solely by the amount of anime vs. the amount of American animation, CGI and traditional), but America has some amazing voice actors, with great vocal control and range, as well. Some American voice actors even have a legendary status as far as vocal control and range (so much you might accuse them of multiple personality disorder tongue.gif ). It would be like saying one people group has inherently better actors than another. In viewing purely anime some might conclude that American voice actors are inferior because a lot of dubbing has used cheaper and inferior voice actors, especially in the past, but that would not truly reflect on voice actors as a whole.
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arimareiji
Posted: Mar 28 2017, 10:52 AM
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Murren, thank you for your response. happy.gif I hope this will help clarify the basketball analogy: Say that an entire country is passionate about something (basketball, anime, martial arts, what have you), skilled participants can expect rich rewards, and there's intense competition. Would you expect the average skill level to be the same as in a country where it's a low priority and participants compete for the love of it despite poor or no rewards (i.e. US women's sports which don't have outfits that border on nudity, sad to say), and the population is even in the same ball park?

In my opinion, it would be startling if the average skill levels were even close. Participants who are pulled from a much smaller pool, have little external incentive to polish their skills, and have very little competition aren't likely to even be in the same league.

I believe this is a fair description of the relative states of voice acting in Japan and America. If so, I believe it makes a prima facie case that American VA's (on average) are unlikely at best to be in the same league as Japanese VA's. If there were plenty of evidence against it being true, of course that would outweigh this reasoning. But it wouldn't hold water to assert (in the absence of contrary evidence or reasoning) that American VA's must be equal just because. (I don't think you feel this way; I'm just noting it for the record.)

It's quite true that I don't speak Japanese. But it's also quite true that for centuries people have listened to opera in languages they didn't speak. I believe that in both cases, a wide range of emotional nuance can be conveyed by a skilled performer - and I believe that when subtitles and action supply context, it's possible to catch very fine nuances by listening attentively.

Perhaps it's true that when tone/inflection/etc don't match the original or are missing, it's only due to different interpretations of a character. But if they don't even match the plot and/or visible action... I don't think that can be chalked up to anything but unpolished skill, lack of understanding, or outright rejection of the story on display. Imo, none of these would indicate that the VA is just as professionally skilled as their counterpart and it's only a creative difference.

Edit: Mamma Peach, I quite agree if you mean "universally" better. That was why I made a point of saying "on average".

This post has been edited by arimareiji on Mar 28 2017, 10:55 AM
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Mamma Peach
Posted: Mar 28 2017, 11:05 AM
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Even "on average" may not apply. Innate talent wise an big pool usually has the same range as a small pool, and you can't tell just by the size of the pool how much competition has occurred. There could be a lot of so-so people in a large pool and highly qualified in the small one. You just can't tell by a cursory glance.

I guess the only thing I could say for sure is that Japanese people play Japanese people better, and Americans play Americans better. That would go without saying.

This post has been edited by Mamma Peach on Mar 28 2017, 11:08 AM
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arimareiji
Posted: Mar 28 2017, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE (Mamma Peach @ Mar 28 2017, 10:05 AM)
Even "on average" may not apply. Innate talent wise an big pool usually has the same range as a small pool, and you can't tell just by the size of the pool how much competition has occurred. There could be a lot of so-so people in a large pool and highly qualified in the small one. You just can't tell by a cursory glance.

I guess the only thing I could say for sure is that Japanese people play Japanese people better, and Americans play Americans better. That would go without saying.

If you would say the same of Americans playing in the NBA versus Egyptians playing basketball in the Superleague, then I believe we understand each other clearly - which is, after all, the purpose of communication. happy.gif

Edit: Localized for clarity.

This post has been edited by arimareiji on Mar 28 2017, 02:26 PM
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iffy
Posted: Mar 28 2017, 03:27 PM
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It would seem that somebody who speaks a language skillfully, natively and fluently (say, complete with nuanced pronunciation, fully correct idioms matching a particular region, and on-spot accent) is almost always going to be more natural and emotionally on target than somebody who is lacking in one or more of those qualities. It might be more objective, as in these qualities are in a way criteria that can be graded, which almost removes them from the arena of opinion. Overall performance by a performer, that's more subjective, and is a matter of opinion from those creating the work and those consuming it. The bottom line is more how much money the product makes as to what qualifies as success. If you create a product that nobody consumes, it probably doesn't matter how open, fair, inclusive and politically correct you've been. Likely also the investors are going to have you fired, unless the object was something other than making money. Either way, winning in the artistic realm of casting talent is not the way one wins a golf match by having a score lower than anyone else has. Not really the same thing.

One would expect that a nation with a rich and extensive history of swordpainting would have a larger pool of swordpainters, but that doesn't preclude other nations from producing superlative specimens who happen to be better than the best of the other nation. Depending on the criteria by which such art is judged.

If we start with two or more actors or actresses of equal skill levels, the one with better language skills will be "better" at voicing a given role. If the criteria though is such that we require something "wrong" with the voice or behaviors of a character, in that case the poorer skills might result in a better performance. Assuming the acting itself doesn't neutralize the skill aspects. But given two equals, the one that sounds more exactly like a native speaker (where the character is too) would be more convincing than somebody who just learned half a phrase book and mispronounces it all. If being convincing is the way to judge high-quality and good-choices. Unless you're wanting to voice a character who is one that knows half a phrase book and doesn't know how to pronounce anything.

If people are picked simply because they are just like the chooser, and without concern of any of the practical reasonable rational aspects, that's probably bigoted. If they happen to be just like the chooser, yet most all of the choices were because of topical logical applicability, that's probably not bigoted. The same goes the other way, where somebody different is chosen not because they brought something special to the performance or endeavor, not because they were the obvious choice or better faster cheaper nicer easier to work with, but mostly only simply because they were different.

We might ask if somebody is voicing a role in a given language (dialect, gender, behavior, nuance) and there are native speakers who can do so easily, why somebody else might be chosen to do so. That might be a case of racism or sexism or nationalism, but could just be a matter of nepotism, favoritism - or of simply of not having the budget. Sometimes you just have to settle for casting somebody that doesn't cost more than the entire rest of the cast combined. Some times you just want Mercedes mechanic to work on your Mercedes.

Preferring Japanese people to voice Japanese characters speaking Japanese (or choosing a Kenyan to act out a character who is Kenyan) is certainly a selective choice that on the face of it seems a pretty logical rational choice. Is choosing a Swiss male to voice a Swiss male character unfair? So picking matching actors or actresses is not necessarily biased (as in unfairly prejudiced towards) or bigoted (as in being intolerant of differences). If the person casting is of the same group/ethnicity/culture as the roles and they put in the matching performer, they might be strongly partial to their own group/ethnicity/culture and exhibit that bias. But is the only criteria they be like them, without concern for applicability to the role in terms of the performance? Did they pick the producer's nephew who is terrible, their SO who is so-so, the person who happened to be available, or best performer that fits the budget? It could be sort of like an NHL salary cap; can't pick everyone you want and so you settle here and there when filling the roster.

As far as those consuming the work, they might be intolerant of the opinion of somebody else who prefers an unmatching VA that doesn't do a very good job. Perhaps in a quite fair way. Or they themselves might believe Thor sounds better when voiced by an elven female on helium and Quaaludes. And compared to the other choices available, maybe they do.

It depends on which definition of bigot is being used, and how strictly it's being applied to a given situation. How appropriately. Which of course, the decision of applicability itself might be made by forming an opinion before being aware of relevant facts. Yet not all preconceptions are negative and unfavorable and capricious. For example, if you are thin, tall and live high up a mountain in a castle, you probably have a higher lung capacity than a thick, short person who lives in the sea. It doesn't mean either of them is the best choice to direct your music video.
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Invisigoth
Posted: Mar 28 2017, 03:48 PM
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Oh basketball....

Modern sports uses body typing to recruit to a large degree...if a man ins 7 foot tall, under 30 and is healthy and physically able to play basketball he will have been scouted and recruited by the NBA.
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arimareiji
Posted: Mar 28 2017, 07:52 PM
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Iffy: Which language words are being spoken in has little relevance to what I'm saying. That's an unfortunate giant red herring.

To be absolutely clear, I am NOT talking about the words being used. I'm talking about the timbre, pitch, inflection, etc that they're spoken with. I'm talking about the vocal - not verbal - cues we rely on when listening to someone to help understand what they're feeling.

I have multiple issues with Disney's production of Princess Mononoke, but I'm grateful that it provides a perfect illustration of what I'm trying to say. Completely aside from translation quality, completely aside from anything about verbal language: Some of the big-name American visual actors fall flat on their faces when it comes to expressing emotion vocally (without the benefit of their looks, their expressions, and their body language). Objectively, with only a vanishingly-small speck of subjectivity (to an irrelevant degree), those VAs' voices are virtually devoid of affect* by comparison to their counterparts in the Ghibli production.

Dunning-Krueger applies here as much as anywhere else: If we don't train ourselves in how to project and recognize emotional tone, and/or if we're not accustomed to listening to people who have, that doesn't mean others can't or haven't.

* - observable expression of emotion
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Mamma Peach
Posted: Mar 29 2017, 11:14 AM
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Though he does have a point (somewhere in there) that hiring affects quality. As I said before dubs have been subject to hiring inferior VAs in the past. Would a major Hollywood production use those same VA's for their animated (CGI or traditional) film (probably not), or TV series (maybe, because we don't care)? VAs are chosen for financial reasons, and that may or may not mean because of talent. Japanese anime usually doesn't look for decent English speakers to perform "Americans" (though a very tiny number have) because they don't think the viewers will either notice or care. I was saying that because of the money factor (and the fact that anime, a Japanese product) was mostly in view, the question of who has the better (even on average) VAs can't be settled. I am one that prefers watching anime in Japanese (with subtitles), because that is the original language (and I've often noticed that even the subtitles get the nuance of language wrong), though I sometimes I have liked the American voices for certain characters better. I would also prefer to listen to American works in the original English (though for novelty I have sometimes listened to them in other languages). I think any country that places a value on animation will end up having some superlative VAs. The more animation they have the more VAs they will have, but whether they are all, or mostly, good ones depends on how picky the industry is. If they can get away with less quality (like say with some children's programming) they will do so.
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iffy
Posted: Mar 29 2017, 11:46 AM
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Yes, not the language or the specific words, just that if our example is Japanese and anime. Such as Miyazaki's Mononoke in its original form. If the voice work in the original brings a real and an emotive response, and it's difficult or impossible to recreate that well, a good question might be why even mess with it. Editing something to bring cultural context or explain myths is often not necessary, and properly created subtitles removes even a requirement to make it understandable to an audience that doesn't understand the original spoken language. Then that becomes a matter of preference, would you rather read and perhaps pick up on some of the emotion from tone and pitch and timing, or make due with a flatter not very nuanced verbal translation which might not be that corrct to begin with.

The sorts of living emotional vocalizations in an original language often isn't directly well recreatable, just like there's going to be something missing in the written form, even in that same language. That's even between somewhat similar language forms, and more so between entirely different families. How emotive and real can one be in English when covering material culturally different to begin with? Like determining what is best at telling a story, books or movies, it's another discussion and not one easily resolved.

Trying to copy a work almost never improves upon it, but aside from that, using talent that's going to best carry out an original or a copy isn't really a matter of primarily "being intolerant towards those with different opinions", "strongly unfairly disliking other people and ideas", or "strongly partial to their own group and intolerant of others". Casting voices for an anime not so much any of those, because, reasons.

After all, if you are a bird, telling a bird story about bird culture using bird language, why wouldn't you pick birds to produce and create it? The concept of bigotry, prejudice, bias, -isms don't really seem to much fit. Appropriate, that might be a question. Say, Howard Hughes' The Conqueror.
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arimareiji
Posted: Mar 29 2017, 01:04 PM
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We all have personal preferences, for reasons that range from logical-but-irrelevant-to-others (genetics can cause cilantro to "taste" like laundry soap) to illogical-but-real (I grew up on boxed macaroni & cheese and dislike the "real" kind), or from emotive ("it evokes a happy memory") to strictly rational ("it saves money").

As long as a personal preference involves no harm to anyone else, no one has any business or even rational ability to judge. De gustibus non est disputandum is often rendered as "There's no accounting for taste", but would be better rendered as "You can't argue about tastes"*.

I wouldn't have any right (or desire) to judge others' personal preferences. All I want to say is that it's possible to hone the skills of expressing and evoking emotion through vocal (not verbal) qualities, and to me it's evident that on the whole, your average** Japanese VA has honed these skills much more than your average American VA. If others (I'm absolutely not referring to anyone who's responded) don't want to hear that and react with "That's bigoted", I believe it says a lot about their personal preferences and nothing about mine.


* - Of course, this is literally untrue - people do it all day long. But there's no rational basis for it, and it accomplishes nothing.

** - Some Japanese VA's royally suck at it - the handlers in Gunslinger Girl come to mind tongue.gif - and some American VA's are really good at it. I'm only talking about the average.

Edit: Lost a stray "s"


This post has been edited by arimareiji on Mar 29 2017, 01:05 PM
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Mamma Peach
Posted: Mar 30 2017, 10:49 AM
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That is not so evident to me. The VA's of "Batman Beyond" were superb, as well as Pixar stuff and even the old "Flintstones" and "Looney Tunes" (in fact Mel Blanc is a legend). Granted there is very inferior stuff out in the American young children's market. I am not as good of a judge of Japanese VAs but I have noticed poor quality there too (often in the children's market) and a lot of stuff that strikes me as just okay. Yes, both countries have different methods of producing VAs (like just about everything else) but that doesn't insure top quality. Mass production can produce a mediocre sameness, and individuality climbing up is a hit or miss. In either case the cream still rises to the top, and the top eventually demands a higher price. So what would prevail would be along the lines of how much will you pay. Acting (vocal or otherwise) is an art rather than a sport. While regimented training is a must for sports and can easily be done as a group (and that is a must for team sports), the trade off for that kind of thing in the arts is often doing it just like the teacher, sameness, which actually stifles greatness. Idol groups on the whole are more entertaining than their untrained counterparts, but are not likely to become something great. So I'm not sure that the system in place in Japan would inherently produce better VAs than America when averaged out. All I'm saying is that I don't see enough evidence to to say one is better than the other either way.
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iffy
Posted: Mar 30 2017, 11:43 AM
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Most people are average. smile.gif

Some endeavors can be explained to being popular due to culture, history, environment (at least for sports; who wants to play baseball in Greenland, who wants to run long-distance in Tibet, who is interested in ice hockey in Nigeria.) Predisposition to something in the family or region etc may add to it all, but if something is popular to do, it will have more people doing it, and a better chance to find that superstar. Either way, the larger the pool, the more sharing of strategy, technique, best practices, groups to practice in, mentors, training materials. And the enthusiasm for doing the work necessary to optimize whatever inherent ability a person has in such where it's popular. Why are there so many coconuts produced in Indonesia, we may never know.

It seems pretty obvious not all works produced have the same budget or are made with the need or desire to be high-quality. Picking examples of poor material might not be the best way to go about it. That would seem more to be by looking at things like the number of 'better to best' produced, the ratio of very bad to very good versus total, and number of works produced versus pool of talent available. Although it might turn out that comparisons show there isn't much difference, or that indeed the bulk of material produced is generally substandard everywhere. Depending on the preferences and grading systems. Dang that cilantro tastes like soap, but it makes the box of mac and cheese sing!

As far as VA, and comparing US to Japan, how many actors and actresses have voice work predominate on their CV in the US? What percentage of the volume of material is there using voice skill in Japan? How much material from Japan is redone in the US, and what's the comparative quality in performance? Seems there would be some way to determine this answer honestly and fairly via comparisons.
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arimareiji
Posted: Mar 30 2017, 01:28 PM
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QUOTE (iffy @ Mar 30 2017, 10:43 AM)
Either way, the larger the pool, the more sharing of strategy, technique, best practices, groups to practice in, mentors, training materials.  And the enthusiasm for doing the work necessary to optimize whatever inherent ability a person has in such where it's popular.    Why are there so many coconuts produced in Indonesia, we may never  know.

To me that would seem intuitive as well.

QUOTE
Picking examples of poor material might not be the best way to go about it.


Quite so, and the examples I used of poor American and poor Japanese voice acting weren't meant to represent the average or to make the case - only to try to clear up that I was talking about vocal qualities rather than anything related to the emot-words.gif used.

QUOTE
As far as VA, and comparing US to Japan, how many actors and actresses have voice work predominate on their CV in the US? What percentage of the volume of material is there using voice skill in Japan? How much material from Japan is redone in the US, and what's the comparative quality in performance? Seems there would be some way to determine this answer honestly and fairly via comparisons.


I agree with you that that makes a strong circumstantial argument, but I prefer choosing conclusions based on evidence. Not everyone puts the two things in that order.

Thank you for your time and consideration. One last thought that you might find lightly amusing - I was first struck by the emotive power of voice long before I watched my first anime. The Eponine chosen for the (first? I don't know if there have been others) Les Miserables musical's complete soundtrack reputedly didn't speak a lick of English and had to be coached through the sounds. (It only shows in a couple of odd syllable emphases.) Nonetheless Shimada Kaho's performance was far more powerful than any other Eponine I've heard (over a dozen, most in-person). Again, the thought is for light amusement only - not to make a case that her skill set is representative.
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HakuRyoku
Posted: Mar 30 2017, 05:57 PM
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I honestly think it comes down to personal preference when it comes to Japanese VA's vs. English VA's in the terms of 'who brings the characters to life the best' (i'm assuming that's the crux of this question)

I will agree though that the English VA's for Mononoke Hime were not the best, and that the Japanese VA's did a much better job with that project.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are some English VA's that are incredible. Scott McNeil being a perfect example.

Though I will say, that when it comes to adaptations that require a deeper 'feel' to the character, (virtually any VN adaptation) the Japanese VA's do have a better grip on how to do those characters. After all; they made the game.... I would expect them to be able to portray them better than an English adaptation would. (Not to say that English VA's can't, I'm sure Scott McNeil, Tera Strong, and Nolan North could, its just that, that is a very tiny percentage of English VA's.)
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arimareiji
Posted: Apr 1 2017, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE (HakuRyoku @ Mar 30 2017, 04:57 PM)
I honestly think it comes down to personal preference when it comes to Japanese VA's vs. English VA's in the terms of 'who brings the characters to life the best' (i'm assuming that's the crux of this question)

The original crux of the question was meant to be "Do Japanese VA's (on average) demonstrate more skill in using their voice to portray emotion than Anerican VA's (on average?", but my unclear phrasing and people's desire to answer other questions led to the discussion taking on a life of its own (as they often do). happy.gif I don't think there's a clear question any longer, just people's desire to express their feelings about all things related to Japanese and American VA's.
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omoikane
Posted: Apr 2 2017, 09:05 PM
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I think there are no real differences between the voice actors on both sides as far as skills go. Anime dubs dip in to a much smaller talent pool than Japan so you might not find as many good ones there, but overall the EN dub industry is just as talented.

If anything I think the difference is in ADR and direction. In anime a lot of the time the character is created carefully when the writer, director, dub director and the voice actor work together to bring that to life. This happens pretty rarely on the localization side I feel. But that speaks more to the audience's expectation. I think a lot of people who enjoy dubs are looking for those kind of things, and not what the Japan side is trying for. So even in that space there's localization in the direction, let alone the translation.
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arimareiji
Posted: Apr 4 2017, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE (omoikane @ Apr 2 2017, 08:05 PM)
I think there are no real differences between the voice actors on both sides as far as skills go. Anime dubs dip in to a much smaller talent pool than Japan so you might not find as many good ones there, but overall the EN dub industry is just as talented.

Would this not require there to be a theoretical maximum of skill that both have achieved? Otherwise, it would be as likely as the Egyptian basketball league being at the same level as the NBA.
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Ningen
Posted: Apr 4 2017, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE (iffy @ Mar 30 2017, 06:43 PM)
Most people are average. smile.gif

Nonsense.

The average person has 1.99something legs. Most people have 2.
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S1arburst
Posted: Apr 4 2017, 09:04 PM
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Heh, you got more of a response than you were afraid of! happy.gif I see that the question you meant to convey was whether Japanese voice actors were better than American, but since you perceive everyone as answering whatever question they want, I might as well answer the question I want to as well.

I have the iffy habit of being delighted with words, and the way you framed the question originally was whether you would be a bigot for thinking Japanese voice actors were better, plus other opinions.

Now my physical (somewhat old) Merriam-Webster's defines a bigot as "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"

If carried to the extreme, it seems that under this definition you could be called a bigot for steadfastly believing such things as the law of gravity, or that vitamins are necessary for good health.

I would say an opinion is not really obstinate or intolerant if you are willing to listen somewhat politely to other views however, and if your opinion is backed to some extent by facts.
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S1arburst
Posted: Apr 4 2017, 09:29 PM
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*triple post*

This post has been edited by S1arburst on Apr 4 2017, 09:42 PM
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S1arburst
Posted: Apr 4 2017, 09:38 PM
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*triple post*

This post has been edited by S1arburst on Apr 4 2017, 09:42 PM
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arimareiji
Posted: Apr 4 2017, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE (S1arburst @ Apr 4 2017, 08:04 PM)
Heh, you got more of a response than you were afraid of!  happy.gif  I see that the question you meant to convey was whether Japanese voice actors were better than American, but since you perceive everyone as answering whatever question they want, I might as well answer the question I want to as well.

I have the iffy habit of being delighted with words, and the way you framed the question originally was whether you would be a bigot for thinking Japanese voice actors were better, plus other opinions.

Now my physical (somewhat old) Merriam-Webster's defines a bigot as "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"

If carried to the extreme, it seems that under this definition you could be called a bigot for steadfastly believing such things as the law of gravity, or that vitamins are necessary for good health.

I would say an opinion is not really obstinate or intolerant if you are willing to listen somewhat politely to other views however, and if your opinion is backed to some extent by facts.

Thank you for returning to this point and reframing it in a constructive fashion. That indeed was one of the things bothering me most when I wrote the question, and you helped me find my own answer.

I think it's fair to believe that in general, going on the attack and accusing someone of various nasty traits because they expressed an opinion you didn't like would be much closer to bigotry than expressing the opinion which provokes said response. Even then, that's only provided the opinion is civilly expressed without hostile intent and doesn't infer inherent, universal inferiority in any group whose composition has no objective relevance. (I.e. "green people are all immoral and should burn in hell" is bigoted, "A team of NBA players is usually better at basketball than a team of middle-aged stockbrokers" probably not.)

(Edit: Because I have to qualify everything to death.)

QUOTE (Ningen @ Apr 4 2017, 04:52 PM)
Nonsense.

The average person has 1.99something legs. Most people have 2.

Excellent point.

The more I consider the thought, the more I think I should have gone with my gut and said that I believe the vocal skills (with nothing else implied) of the median Japanese VA are far above those of the median American VA. Average implies they can be easily quantified on a numeric scale, and I don't think even Simon Cowell crossed with a genius statistician would want that job.

(Just for a start, I suspect that an accurate reflection of emotional intensity would need to be on a logarithmic scale. No way to average that well, even if it could be measured.)

This post has been edited by arimareiji on Apr 4 2017, 10:49 PM
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Mamma Peach
Posted: Apr 5 2017, 08:17 AM
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Median - denoting or relating to a value or quantity lying at the midpoint of a frequency distribution of observed values or quantities, such that there is an equal probability of falling above or below it.

I'm imagining (for lack of any real data) two bell curves pretty much the same shape, one denoting large numbers and the other small numbers. That's how I'm seeing it. Total numbers of available VAs in both countries. Yes, there are major differences in how they got there (the same as with actors and musicians). One represents the organized school approach. The other represents the school of hard knocks approach. The organized school approach is easier, but often demotes real creativity. The school of hard knocks is just plain hard, and requires either short cuts (potentially bad for creativity) or determination. People do survive and even thrive in spite of both methods. I've been in the art field and understand the short comings of both. (Also sports like basketball are not in the least similar to the arts.) Frankly I have no real knowledge that would back up any statement about the superior method of training VA's, or realistically what methods actually are used in either country. I'm finding out that there are schools for just about everything here in the US, so I would probably be surprised. So anyway, it's my hypothesis -or rather somewhat un-educated guess- that the median is about equal in quality, but unequal in numbers. And I have no way of proving it either.
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