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|Megatokyo Forums > Story Discussions > Please for the love of god|
|Posted by: Phobius13 Nov 7 2001, 11:08 PM|
|PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! *ahem* may i politely ask you to stop with the haikus no offense intended|
|Posted by: squee Nov 7 2001, 11:27 PM|
| None taken, and no,
we will not stop our haiku,
we enjoy them so...
|Posted by: Phobius13 Nov 7 2001, 11:34 PM|
| i should of shut up and endured it shouldt i
just to spite me your gonna amp it up hardcore
|Posted by: DietWaterCzar Nov 7 2001, 11:36 PM|
|Yes, it is an unstoppable force here.|
|Posted by: snow_cheetah Nov 7 2001, 11:45 PM|
| hi hi
you can not stop it
i suppose you could just not read the threads
|Posted by: squee Nov 7 2001, 11:47 PM|
| This haiku is strange,
an esoteric mixture,
So. The wind is all.
Motion, our haiku,
|Posted by: Phobius13 Nov 7 2001, 11:47 PM|
|AHHH now i got to deal with the borg.... Hmm mwa ahahahahahahah ive found a counter to the haikus but i need to work on it (dont worry im not gonna do any hacking or slanderizing its just going to be funny and its gonna be on my web site)|
|Posted by: doctortripp Nov 7 2001, 11:48 PM|
| when one sees the word
'haiku' in the topic name
one must make a choice:
read or ignore: yin
|Posted by: chibiwasabi Nov 8 2001, 12:06 AM|
| Problem is 90% of you are doing it wrong.
|Posted by: Phaedrus Nov 8 2001, 05:11 AM|
Autumn frost chills ground.
So quick to judge us?
|Posted by: Jarod Cain Nov 8 2001, 05:34 AM|
| I believe he feels much like This Guy.
Personally I don't mind all that much. 8)
|Posted by: DrCloud Nov 8 2001, 06:23 AM|
| Just to wind you up...
I'd not tried before
Is there any more to haiku(s) than just the 3 lines, 5-7-5 syllables rule? I'm pretty uncertain about syllables anyway, they sometimes seem a bit vague, but never mind...
|Posted by: Master Edward Nov 8 2001, 06:37 AM|
| Well, to write traditional haiku you need the season word (kigo), inspiartion and a cutting, a transition from one part of the haiku to the other related one.
Anyway, traditional haiku really work in japanese only. So just stick 5-7-5 and you are set for the MT haiku threads.
|Posted by: Piro Nov 8 2001, 07:21 AM|
| hey, i like the haiku stuff.
the fact that MT inspires poetry of all things makes me chuckle ^+^
|Posted by: smurd Nov 8 2001, 07:26 AM|
|Posted by: smurd Nov 8 2001, 07:32 AM|
We are well aware of that. And that will always be the case as long as we are dealing with haiku in English, which has very loose and liquid system of phonemes and also a fairly complicated system of phonemic stress, as opposed to Nihongo, which has a very rigid phoneme system and no phonemic stress.
Many here also appreciate that Japanese doesn't have (or doesn't use) all the metrical tricks at the disposal of English (it's hard to imagine "sprung rhythm" in Japanese). It may not be proper haiku -- I have disavowed any claim to adhering to the classical form -- but it can be fun. And if it's fun we shall do it.
You know, the MT poets don't go round posting threads that say "Quit asking the same questions over and over!" MOreover we have clearly labelled our threads with the words "haiku", "poem", etc. You may treat that as an invitation, or a warning label; suit yourself.
Better yet (and you knew this was coming):
Shouting in the dark
[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: smurd ]
|Posted by: Phaedrus Nov 8 2001, 07:58 AM|
| Clouds part, Piro speaks:
"Hey, I like the haiku stuff."
We bask in sunlight.
|Posted by: smurd Nov 8 2001, 08:32 AM|
My, such passion! In the service of... what, exactly? He's right, of course (Gresham's Law rears its worthless head), but he might as well be calling for the abolition of stupid talk shows, or the abolition of infomercials, or the abolition of political campaigns. Or the abolition of winter weather. Or the abolition of Internet BB participants who won't face the FAQs.
I happen to agree with his positions, 100%, and yet I think, "Geez, what a crank!" Better he should be publishing funny poems lampooning that which he despises.
Much as we revile the abuse of an old and respected art form, we'd do well to remember that higher expressions of art often filter in from the bottom. Speaking of Japan, Europe's first exposure to ukiyo-e led to imitation in such areas as domestic textiles and "japanning", or silkscreened tinware. Very base. But it also led to Impressionism. Be patient, fella.
[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: smurd ]
|Posted by: Master Edward Nov 8 2001, 08:42 AM|
Limericks, of course. Not haiku.
"There was once a writer named Paul
Bad limericks are not so much harder than bad haiku, IMO.
|Posted by: Phaedrus Nov 8 2001, 09:18 AM|
| I think applying Gresham's law outside of economics is shaky. Bad doesn't necessarily drive out good, and may even be necessary to building good stuff.
I'm a scientist, and I do exploratory research directed at long range product development. What this means is that on a day to day basis, I mostly do experiments that don't work. Over and over. Trying new things. Failing. Trying something else. Failing.
...and occasionally uncovering a gem. (That's why they pay me the b1g buck$.)
There are all kinds of studies about how to do R&D effectively. A lot of people have come to the conclusion that the real predictor of success is to just try a lot of things quickly; nobody does that great a job of picking experiments, so the trick is to do a lot of them, with your eyes open to catch the good results. There are whole new scientific disciplines ("combinatorial chemistry", "rapid assessment", etc.) built around this idea.
Or look at another discipline. The standard cure for writers block is "write something". Anything. It may be great, it may trigger a new inspiration, or it may be crap, but at least you're moving. The only way to write something worthwhile is to write.
I take this kind of attitude towards a lot of things in life, including poetry. I write a lot of stuff. Some of it I post. A fair amount of what I post is doggerel. And occasionally there's a gem I'm really proud of. Sometimes I can't tell the difference until stare at one for a long time, or see how other people respond to it.
|Posted by: Master Edward Nov 8 2001, 09:36 AM|
Was it Sturgeon's Law I was thinking of,
|Posted by: smurd Nov 8 2001, 11:51 AM|
| You are probably right about Gresham's Law, or indeed any law promulgated by "The Dismal Science."
Absolutely, action is the only anodyne; getting out of a rut requires climbing out. The problem is usually stale thinking; anyone here familiar with Eno's Oblique Strategies?
Yes. He was specifically thinking of literature and media. A call to humility for us all.
|Posted by: Phaedrus Nov 9 2001, 12:08 AM|
I have this vague memory that it's a set of mind puzzles you can use to jog creativity(?) I think Ray Kurzweil mentioned them in The Age of Spiritual Machines and that that's where I heard about them.
Do you have the book/card deck/whatever it was? Is it interesting?
|Posted by: Kojiro Takenashi Nov 8 2001, 02:36 PM|
| The gods have Spoken
Wai! It all makes me chuckle
Blessings now recieved
|Posted by: smurd Nov 8 2001, 02:48 PM|
| I have a 1978 edition, it came out right before the co-creator, Peter Schmidt, passed away.
Yes, it's a deck of cards, "Over one hundred worthwhile dilemmas." Here are a couple:
code:You can only make one dot at a time
They are a lot like koans, which is why I like them.
[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: smurd ]
|Posted by: Phaedrus Nov 8 2001, 03:19 PM|
I'm now officially intrigued. A little googling shows that there are a VERY limited number of decks in circulation with no new ones planned to be printed (you seem to have a collectors item!) BUT:
The text of the cards is available on about 5 million web sites, along with any number of java/flash/[your scripting language here] implementations of "take a random card".
There's even a GPLpalm pilot version, which is now enshrined on Poohbah, the nag that lives in my shirt pocket and makes me go to the meetings that my subconcious has carefully forgotten.
<hits RANDOM button>
|Posted by: wizardofkitty Nov 8 2001, 03:42 PM|
| What about haikus?
I just like writing haikus,
hehe. I usually dont look in the haiku threads because they scare me. so if you dont like haikus, dont look there.
Oh yeah, dont ask me why I write em, I got addicted to it in the Fanfictions. dont look there if you dont want mini haikus here and there too. (although we dont bite!)
|Posted by: Dei\nar\Ys Nov 8 2001, 03:47 PM|
| Hmph. I've never written a joke Haiku. I do, however, love it's alliteration, form, and the meaning it van often inspire.
Maybe it's just the fact that I can uncritically love, or at least like, just about everything that is anywhere above 'horrible' in terms of content. Something has to be unbelievably bad before I'll avoid it.
Of course, I love most every form of literature and art, even a great deal, by which I mean most, of so called 'low art*', like comic books or manga.
I do, however, irrationally hate the current stylistic fad sweeping American comics, which is basically drawing things in the same manner as the greatly loathed 'Danger Girl'.
And now, in the spirit of the thread:
Lonely grey sky above,
There. A 'proper' haiku.
*As meant by Calvin.
[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Dei'nar'Ys ]
|Posted by: Aeonus Nov 8 2001, 03:56 PM|
But... what if you have a pencil in each hand?
|Posted by: JB Nov 8 2001, 05:10 PM|
Interesting. Though my few haiku(senryu, you say?) I've tried to make more then just 17 syllables broken up. 2 5 syllable sentences and a 7 syllable sentence is FAR harder to make.
|Posted by: Glump Nov 9 2001, 02:36 AM|
As for the ethics of using this ancient and respected form in a manner that may be argued base and frivolous... Well, smurd and Phaedrus certainly Made Points Worth Making. (By the way, smurd - which of this inspired the new work? Just the suggestion that we should all write constantly?)
As someone who has long been rooted in prose, particularly the sort of prose that might lead you to suspect that the author is purposefully taking long detours so as to rendezvous whenever possible with his secret paramour, the semicolon (and I regret nothing!), I find haiku organize my mind in a manner that it doesn't usually find itself organized. It is a valuable mental tool to have to express what I need to express within the constraints of seventeen syllables, even if it may often evolve into ten stanzas of seventeen syllables. Under the right circumstances, my eloquence can be quite improved by the succinctness of the form.
I don't even know whether what I do should be considered haiku. I don't really make any attempts to stick with the true rules of the form; occasionally, I do, but that involves a quite different mindset. Most of my attempts at true poetry using the form end up like this. Even if it's not valid as traditional haiku, I like to think this is valid as art that happens to use a similar count.
On the other hand, I don't really have a problem with continuing to refer to it as haiku, both because I don't have a better name for a poem written in three lines of five, seven and five syllables, and because in my more egotistical moments I like to think maybe we're involved in the evolution of a form. Some may scoff at us, but perhaps one day internet scholars will point back at those poetic rebels, the "Megatokyo school" of the haiku form, and the occasional instances of true, powerful art that arose from the creative explosion in this era.
Or not. At all. But it's fun to imagine. ^_^_v
You can also ignore all that and just take the explanation that it's fun, and I don't think it's hurting anybody. Even Death God Phobius.
(Wah, I wonder if this is too pretentious?)
[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Garran ]
|Posted by: smurd Nov 9 2001, 06:49 AM|
| Self-expression is often its own justification. New forms begin by breaking out of old ones when they seem to be too restrictive; the history of literature is full of this. Art is art, even if it's bad art.
They laughed or pointed angry fingers at poets when they did away with formal sentence structure (remember that poetry is rooted in the spoken language); when they went without rhymes; when they did away with complex sentences, when they dropped punctuation or capital letters.
The rant-writer, were he to spend some time perusing our threads, would see that most of us DO NOT pretend to stick to "the rules," or if we do we say so first and then try. What could be more honest than this?
Is Fred sticking to "the rules" when he writes his own take on Japanese manga? From things I've seen just in this forum, I'd say there's a lot of people who think he isn't. To them I say: who cares? If you want Japanese manga, learn a little Japanese and read Japanese manga. (As many in this forum can attest, they are easy to obtain and make learning Japanese a real pleasure.) Fred is reinterpreting the medium for his own needs, and for a different audience.
[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: smurd ]