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Megatokyo Forums > Story Discussions > Haiku [817] Anything Unusual


Posted by: NekuraEtowaru Feb 6 2006, 12:53 AM
A friendship blossoms
An old menace draws closer
Which victorious?

Posted by: Elite Owl Feb 6 2006, 01:16 AM
Hmm...it was hard for me to come up with a good one for this strip. So, this is my mediocre entry:

Either attack or
Jump four point seven meters.
Quick girls, save yourselves!

Posted by: seeza Feb 6 2006, 02:12 AM
MegaTokyo
I have just finished reading
Largo is psycho

not strictly sense making but close

Posted by: Shoka Feb 6 2006, 02:16 AM
[irish_haiku]

We see Ping helping Yuki to walk,
While of each other's feats they both talk;
And that Sony-goon Ed,
With his restructured head,
Is enjoying a serious stalk.

[/irish_haiku]

Posted by: NekuraEtowaru Feb 6 2006, 02:19 AM
Unaware of risk
Magpies chatter noisily
Easy prey for wolves

Posted by: alphamai1300 Feb 6 2006, 02:36 AM
Wow Playstation Four
Ed you lucky lucky dude
Can I be your friend?

Posted by: littlethunder Feb 6 2006, 02:02 PM

new friend for Yuki
one last taste of innocence
the jackal draws near



LittleThunder

Posted by: L33tsaber Feb 6 2006, 04:22 PM
"That's a nasty sprain."
"Did you see me do weird things?"
Ed's been listening...

Posted by: metris Feb 6 2006, 04:24 PM
"Die in all worlds"
He sneaks like a snake
The end is near.

Posted by: Mae Feb 6 2006, 09:28 PM
I'd say a wolf approaches
But no wolf takes so much joy
In stalking his prey.

Posted by: Shoka Feb 6 2006, 10:41 PM
[irish_haiku]

Did you see Yuki-chan make her spring?
'Cuz she looked like a bird on the wing!
It was Ping-chan who saw her:
Like mother, like daughter!
It's a magical girl kinda thing.^^

[/irish_haiku]

Posted by: NekuraEtowaru Feb 7 2006, 10:41 PM
Rain on this parade
Tentative friendship blossoms
In shadows of doubt

Posted by: Haldane Feb 8 2006, 07:58 AM
Sad MetaRenga...
None to show it loves' labor.
Please come contribute!

Posted by: tsuru-chan Feb 8 2006, 10:43 AM
Okay, I am new to these forums, but not new to MT (been reading since the beginning). It appears that this "haiku" threads are not a new thing.

As stated before, I have been to Japan 3 times before and can read, write, speak, and understand the language.

I praise Fred’s work for being true to the Japanese culture and style.

However, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS “English Haiku.”

Call it something else. You can call whatever you want, just not “haiku.”

In my personal opinion, not even translated true Japanese haiku is fully acceptable.

Why do I say this? This is because in order to have “haiku” you need to understand its true form and meaning. Otherwise, it is not haiku.

Haiku’s most basic and defining elements are made up of three lines of Japanese characters.

The first line must be 5 syllables (in other words 5 kana).
The second line must be 7 syllables.
The third and final line must be 5 syllables again.

Let me give an example of my own work.


A-o-i u-mi (5 kana)
Mi-ru to ka-n-ji-ru (7 kana)
E-i-se-i (5 kana)

-Haku Tsuru

When haiku is read in its most respected form, it is meant to be read slowly, “enjoying” not only the words and meaning as poetry but each sound of each kana.

Since this defines Haiku, anything else would logically not be Haiku.

Therefore, even if I translated my Haiku, it would (although conveying the poetry aspect) destroy half the meaning of Haiku.

Nevertheless, for those curious and Japanese challenged, the translation follows:

Blue ocean
Every time I look upon you
I feel eternal life
It is obvious through this translation that the length of the poetry has become longer in number of letters and syllables. Also, since it is not Japanese (but English) it is not true Japanese Haiku (even through an accurate translation).

In the Japanese language, “sound” plays a much more important and meaningful role than compared to English, almost to a spiritual level even.

Therefore, the so-called “American Haiku” is disrespectful to the Japanese language.

If another name were given to the type of poetry then fine, but as standing it is incorrect and a misnomer.
Why then has this misnomer continued? Simple, once something is set originally, it is difficult to change (e.g. the current keyboard that I am typing on is no were near as efficient as the Dvorak system. However sine the Dvorak system came after, people did not want to go back and learn another system. Same applies for America being the ONLY nation in the world to use the non-metric system of measurements). Also, people are simply uneducated. They do not bother to research into something and find out about its roots.



Posted by: Haldane Feb 8 2006, 01:16 PM
While it's correct that Haiku is a true Japanese creation... unlike their pictoglyphs, you ignore that right for humans to be creative (or plagaristic if you so choose). If something like English Haiku doesn't exist then the first person to think of it has the legal right to patent, copyright, or trademark it. I was asked by a teacher 37 years ago to write English poetry in the Haiku format, so it has already existed for several generations. It is unfortunate that you choose to be offended because in a country with constitutionally guaranteed rights to the freedom of speech and expression NO ONE has the right to never be offended... the two are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE! You may choose to avoid these threads or you may leave, none of us will infringe your RIGHTS in this regard.

Posted by: Shoka Feb 8 2006, 02:44 PM
[irish_haiku]

That we don't write "authentic" haiku
Has been cited of old and anew;
Well yes, we can see
That it ain't Japanese,
But it's work we'll continue to do. happy.gif

[/irish_haiku]

Posted by: AkaiLady Feb 8 2006, 03:02 PM
While haiku's are very cultural in Japan, there's nothing wrong with there being an English cultural equivalent. Yes, some of the intial feeling of haiku's are lost, but at the same time, what's the difference between 5 kana, 7 kana, 5 kana, and the English 5 syllable, 7 syllable, 5 syllable?

When it comes down to it, each culture and language just uses different grammatical affects for the same purpose: to tell a story in a short amount of time. Sure, for purists, it's not the same, but neither is an English limerick, nor a diamante, nor any other form of writing that is unique to a culture and adopted by an alien culture. It happens, and I think it's a good thing when cultures can borrow from each other. I mean, Japan is the epitome of a culture that borrows from other cultures. Just look at the volume of words from other languages that they use. Hambagaa Miruku Pan

Actions cause more acts,
Unforeseen bonds occuring,
Futures becoming.

Posted by: UserGoogol Feb 8 2006, 03:07 PM
[no-haiku]American Haikus (which is what I call them, even if they aren't exclusively American) are fun, even if they are totally inauthentic to Japanese culture. American Haikus have a certain rhythm to them, which although not the same as a True Haiku, is still pretty cool.[/no-haiku]

Ping has pink hair now,
Which she did not notice yet,
Oh, and some new boobs.

Posted by: AkaiLady Feb 8 2006, 03:16 PM
I know this is the haiku discussion, but why is everyone talking about Ping's chest growth??? Seriously... almost makes me think that they're all just silly fanboys. =P

*whispers* Don't worry, I love fanboys. Please don't chase me down and try to throttle me. ^^;

Posted by: NightStrife Feb 8 2006, 04:08 PM
[!haiku]

QUOTE (tsuru-chan)
Therefore, the so-called “American Haiku” is disrespectful to the Japanese language.

If another name were given to the type of poetry then fine, but as standing it is incorrect and a misnomer.

I suppose, then, that any form of poetry adapted to be used in a different language than it was originally created in would also be disrespectful to the originating language? I guess that means that all those English Sonnets written by Spenser, Milton, Shakespeare and others are an affront to Italian and shouldn't have been written. The same would go for English forms of the Triolet, Rondeau, Sapphic, and others too numerous to name. In fact (as AkaiLady mentioned), the same could be said of all cultural drift, including prose, music, sports, technology, and so on.

Let me put it this way: the suggestion that adapting a form of poetry to another language destroys it's value as a poetic form and is disrespectful to the original language simply lays waste to the whole concept of poetry.

English, for as much as Japanese is heavy on sound and syllable count, is based on meter (stress patterns) and rhyme. The English form of Sonnets have a different structure than the Italian ones because the rhyme scheme doesn't fit well in English, for example, and the English form of the Triolet introduced iambic feet to the structure to the same end. To say that these changes negate the new form's validity as poetry is simply preposterous, and -- dare I say it -- elitist. Of course a true Japanese Haiku wouldn't work in English, which is precisely why the game changes with the language -- to make the feeling and flow of the work fit within the barriers of the new language.

These derived forms are often called <language> <originalName> simply to give credit to the inspiration. In that sense, "English Haiku" is not a misnomer at all, because it is very much the English-adapted form based on the Haiku. There is no part in that which intends to slap the Japanese culture in the face, as you seem to think. Now, if you're done hunting for ways to be offended, we can move on.

And finally, to justify my (rusty) presence in here:
[/!haiku]

Waiting on the game;
Stalking through the concrete grass
In search of his oath.

Posted by: Shadowy Intent Feb 8 2006, 04:27 PM
QUOTE (AkaiLady)
I know this is the haiku discussion, but why is everyone talking about Ping's chest growth???

Well, what are we supposed to talk about--character development? Sheesh.

QUOTE (tsuru-chan)
Therefore, the so-called “American Haiku” is disrespectful to the Japanese language.

On the contrary; imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But if you'd really like an example of disrespect to literary forms and traditions, I'll gladly oblige:

Innocents afield
Exit, pursued by a goon
OMG! Ping's boobz!!

There. In 22 easy syllables I've: 1) mangled a title (Innocents Abroad, by Mark Twain); 2) bastardized the Bard's greatest stage direction ("Exit, pursued by a bear," from The Winter's Tale); 3) resorted to the crude truncations of the lower classes (although "OMG" has the same number of syllables whether pronounced as words {oh my god} or just phonetically {oh em gee}, which is kinda nifty); and 4) devalued the poetic discourse with an exclamation concerning a gynoid's increased bust size.

Please do not assume we "are simply uneducated," because we choose to ignore or corrupt for our own uses certain poetic strictures. Such a choice does not necessarily indicate ignoragnce of a rule--it could also indicate an utter lack of concern for that rule and the sensibilities behind it.

Additionally, you may be familiar with Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can adequately explained by stupidity." I assure you that, on certain occasions, the phrase can also flow in the opposite direction, whereby apparent stupidity can be explained by malice. Please reference my above haiku as evidence of one such occasion.

Posted by: tsuru-chan Feb 8 2006, 08:44 PM
QUOTE (NightStrife @ Feb 8 2006, 04:08 PM)
I suppose, then, that any form of poetry adapted to be used in a different language than it was originally created in would also be disrespectful to the originating language? I guess that means that all those English Sonnets written by Spenser, Milton, Shakespeare and others are an affront to Italian and shouldn't have been written. The same would go for English forms of the Triolet, Rondeau, Sapphic, and others too numerous to name. In fact (as AkaiLady mentioned), the same could be said of all cultural drift, including prose, music, sports, technology, and so on.

Let me put it this way: the suggestion that adapting a form of poetry to another language destroys it's value as a poetic form and is disrespectful to the original language simply lays waste to the whole concept of poetry.

English, for as much as Japanese is heavy on sound and syllable count, is based on meter (stress patterns) and rhyme. The English form of Sonnets have a different structure than the Italian ones because the rhyme scheme doesn't fit well in English, for example, and the English form of the Triolet introduced iambic feet to the structure to the same end. To say that these changes negate the new form's validity as poetry is simply preposterous, and -- dare I say it -- elitist. Of course a true Japanese Haiku wouldn't work in English, which is precisely why the game changes with the language -- to make the feeling and flow of the work fit within the barriers of the new language.

These derived forms are often called <language> <originalName> simply to give credit to the inspiration. In that sense, "English Haiku" is not a misnomer at all, because it is very much the English-adapted form based on the Haiku. There is no part in that which intends to slap the Japanese culture in the face, as you seem to think. Now, if you're done hunting for ways to be offended, we can move on.

And finally, to justify my (rusty) presence in here:
[/!haiku]

Waiting on the game;
Stalking through the concrete grass
In search of his oath.

I do not think that this is such a good example for comparison. As English and Italian (although different languages) use the same Roman alphabet, but in the case of English and Japanese, the two are no where near alike. One language uses an "alphabet" while the other uses a "syllabary."

The point I am making is that there is a *big enough* difference in real Haiku and the so called “English Haiku” that the two should not be associated. No one is saying that you can not write so-called, “English Haiku,” only that it should be more correctly labeled.

Under the example given, you might as well say that it is okay to write a sci-fi style novel and label it as a “Radically Modified English Sonnet.” This is okay, right? Since I am using the formula <language><original name>, it makes it okay, right? Better yet, let us take a fiction novel and pose it as a non-fiction novel. Let us call it a “non-true non-fiction.”

In other words, saying “English Haiku” is an oxymoron as putting the two terms together is contradictory.

As for the post about the term “English Haiku” being a multi-generational term that in no way makes it more valid. Also, I already covered that issue in my original post (please re-read if necessary).

I am simply making a point (under freedom of speech) that calling something “haiku” that is not “haiku” is incorrect. If anyone cares to further discuss this as being a wrong point, I would like to suggest we discuss the issue in Japanese as only if one understood Japanese to the depth of being able to converse in the language would one be able to understand the point clearly.

Posted by: ph00tbag Feb 8 2006, 09:36 PM
[irish haiku]

It seems we've a poster here who,
Does not append flames [!haiku],
Who dis'llows our "frivolitive,"
Without an alternative!
Just a pedantic prick; let 'em stew!

[/irish haiku]

Posted by: NightStrife Feb 8 2006, 09:59 PM
[!haiku]

QUOTE (tsuru-chan)
Under the example given, you might as well say that it is okay to write a sci-fi style novel and label it as a “Radically Modified English Sonnet.”  This is okay, right?

I'll ignore the fact that "Radically Modified English Sonnet" isn't actually the "language / original name" form for the purposes of the argument, and say again that it depends on the inspiration. It's rather unlikely that someone who was writing true, flat prose would have taken his or her writing style from the Sonnet rather than another novel. But, if that was the case (which would manifest itself in the type of descriptive language used, the general phrasing of ideas and structure being similar to those used in the Sonnet, and so on), then yes. I would probably call it "an English novel in the style of a Sonnet" rather than "a radically modified Sonnet" in that case, but that's essentially what the term "English Haiku" is saying anyway -- that it's an English poem in a style inspired by the Japanese Haiku. It just uses fewer words for brevity.

QUOTE (tsuru-chan)
I would like to suggest we discuss the issue in Japanese as only if one understood Japanese to the depth of being able to converse in the language would one be able to understand the point clearly.

I think Italian would be a better choice. Certainly, following your own logic, if you can comment on the relative difference between the English and Italian languages -- and their respective forms of the Sonnet -- with such conviction, you must already be able to converse in Italian as well.

[/!haiku]

Posted by: AllanO Feb 8 2006, 10:25 PM
QUOTE (tsuru-chan @ Feb 9 2006, 02:44 AM)
I do not think that this is such a good example for comparison.  As English and Italian (although different languages) use the same Roman alphabet, but in the case of English and Japanese, the two are no where near alike.  One language uses an "alphabet" while the other uses a "syllabary."

I think you would strengthing your case if an essential feature of haiku is an appreciation of the characters used. If this is the case (I am not much of a student of Japanese culture so I do not know) a haiku and a three line poem in roman characters of 5-7-5 syllabels would be very different. Analogously an acrostic poem (one where the first letter of each line forms a word or words) rewritten in a different phonographic representation scheme (different alphabet or sylabry, but the same sounds) could cease to be acrostic because the characters could be different and therefore fail to represent the same word.

If kana are so essential to the nature of haiku then you should have defined it that way and not in terms of syllables and given your example in kana rather than using Roman characters (this board supports Japanese characters right?).

Please be pedantic consistently. smile.gif

On the other hand, if sound is all important as you suggest in your first post that would tend to argue against character type being all important. Indeed it would call into question writting haiku down at all. Since sound shift over time and pronounciation differs regionally the same written haiku will sound different at different time and place. If sound is all important to haikuness then a written haiku is not a haiku at all and only audio recordings or readings can be taken as true haiku. Also, if taking haiku sonically seriously is necessary for haikuness then if an audience fail to take the sound seriously does it cease to be a haiku because of the peoples attitude? Also, how do you know that no English speaker takes the sound elements of English words as seriously as some (or all) Japanese take the sound elements of Japanese?

I am both skeptical of your criticism and interested in finding out more information.

QUOTE

Under the example given, you might as well say that it is okay to write a sci-fi style novel and label it as a “Radically Modified English Sonnet.”  This is okay, right?  Since I am using the formula <language><original name>, it makes it okay, right?  Better yet, let us take a fiction novel and pose it as a non-fiction novel.  Let us call it a “non-true non-fiction.”

In other words, saying “English Haiku” is an oxymoron as putting the two terms together is contradictory.


You seem to be defining haiku as a poem written in Japanese with a set number of lines and syllables per line (possibly a set number of characters). What people on this board have (incorrectly in your opinion) called haiku is a poem written in any language (so far English, Japanese, latin and ancient greek among others) with a set number of lines and syllables per line (no restriction on character type used). So either the board's definition gets 2 out of 3 or 2 out of 4 (if character type is important). Either 50% similiar or 66% similiar. smile.gif

An English sonnet has a set language (English), rhyme scheme, number of lines, and feet per line. An English novel has English in it, at least some of which should be in the form of prose (so grammatically standard English as opposed to poetically structured English), it should also have a narrative. So we have your comparison case having 1 out of 4 similiarity, worse the only similiarity is the point of difference for the analogous case you are arguing about (so either 25% or 0%). So I think your analogy falls flat.

As for non-true non-fiction. Any number of memoirs, historical accounts and what not contain fabrications and any number of things marketed as novels have hewed closely to facts with the names changed to protect the guilty. So non-true non-fiction could actually be a pretty good title. Fictional novels can be identical in style to a non-fictional account. Different things can be similiar such that using a modified name appropriately makes people think of the thing in question. Oxymorons are not necessarily incorrect English, Jumbo Shrimp. smile.gif

QUOTE

I am simply making a point (under freedom of speech) that calling something “haiku” that is not “haiku” is incorrect. If anyone cares to further discuss this as being a wrong point, I would like to suggest we discuss the issue in Japanese as only if one understood Japanese to the depth of being able to converse in the language would one be able to understand the point clearly.


In order to speak any language we must be able to discern correct and incorrect usage of words in the language itself (at least if we are talking about local linguistic correctness and not some other form of it). So switching languages will not help (unless we were more competent in the other language). Haiku is actually in this context an english word, I know this because I can find it in English http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=haiku (also no one writes it only in italics or Japanese characters) here is a definition:
1. A Japanese lyric verse form having three unrhymed lines of five, seven, and five syllables, traditionally invoking an aspect of nature or the seasons.
2. A poem written in this form.

I think definition 2 is the one this forum uses (the form is the same the language is different).

Natural language is defined by common usage, even if you disagree with the dictionary that the above gives, the thing is that clearly people who frequent this board and these [haiku] threads understand when we read Haiku in this context: a poem written in the form of three lines consisting of 5-7-5 syllables (no one even defines it at the beginning of the thread and still people do their poems that way). Since the term haiku effectively conveys the idea/definiton it is correct in this context. Now it may not be correct in a different context but that is true of every word in every language.

For example, within this thread it is common practice to refer to the limerick as an Irish Haiku, this is of course a bit of verbal frivolity but it is not incorrect for all that (within the dialect spoken on this board in these threads). When I read Irish Haiku, I know that limerick is meant. Although I am sure it would be incorrect to use it in most other places because it would cause confusion.

To try and argue that there is some standard outside of common usage to appeal to creates an unnacceptable situation [edit: for natural language, technical languages such as legal language or programming languages can be and are defined by an external standard]. Every word we use now in any language means something else (or means nothing) in other times and places. So either every word we use is incorrect or every word people who speak different versions of our language (historical versions of our language or dialects) is [ed]incorrect.

That being said the way we use haiku may be inelegant, coarse or gauche. It may fail to pay full respect to the Japanese poetic art from which the word derives, this may indeed be a question that only an immersion in both Japanese and English poetic and popular culture could seriously answer. However, that does not make it a misnomer or incorrect English. Just as insults, slurs and epithet are words we would rather people not use, but are not actually incorrect language (they are examples of offensive language).

If the difference in nature between Japanese poetry of the category haiku and any English poetry is so great that we should change a practice that is years old on these boards (and well entrenched in English), then I would think that difference would be so glaring as to be easily demonstrable in English (or any other language we might have in common). If it is so subtle that it can only be explained through a literate understanding of both English and Japanese then I submit that we are not doing any grave offense to the poetic art by associating poetry in this way.

Edit: some clarification.

Posted by: ph00tbag Feb 8 2006, 11:35 PM
[!haiku]
Y'know what, the Japanese should stop using the word, パンツ to refer to underwear. It bears more of a resemblance to the word, pants, and therefore should be used in that sense only. For the Japanese to reappropriate the English language in such a way is an insult to the English language and to American heritage. They should be ashamed of themselves.
[/!haiku]

Posted by: NekuraEtowaru Feb 8 2006, 11:57 PM
[!haiku]Alright everyone, you can stop waving your willies around now dry.gif . The proper response to a trolling twit like tsuru-chan is twofold: ignore it and report it. No muss no fuss. [/!haiku]

Robot unaware
Change is everywhere she looks
Youth shows her the way

Posted by: tsuru-chan Feb 9 2006, 10:12 AM
QUOTE
I would probably call it "an English novel in the style of a Sonnet" rather than "a radically modified Sonnet" in that case


Sorry, I had to LOL. With the above sentence, you basically just proved my point (albeit probably unwittingly). So you are basically in disagreement with my titling of “a radically modified sonnet”? Why because it is not accurate as your above quote suggests?

This is exactly what I am saying about Haiku. XD

QUOTE
I think Italian would be a better choice. Certainly, following your own logic, if you can comment on the relative difference between the English and Italian languages -- and their respective forms of the Sonnet -- with such conviction, you must already be able to converse in Italian as well.


LOL. Did you forget you brought up the example? It would seem so by this obviously thoughtless response. Anyways, I will simply refer you to the TOPIC TITLE of this thread. happy.gif
Haiku = Japanese


QUOTE
If kana are so essential to the nature of haiku then you should have defined it that way and not in terms of syllables and given your example in kana rather than using Roman characters (this board supports Japanese characters right?).


I guess this is my bad. I assumed that members here would have the basic knowledge that Japanese syllables are written in Kana....
In other words, Japanese *IS* a syllabary because of the nature of the language with its use of Kana.

QUOTE
On the other hand, if sound is all important as you suggest in your first post that would tend to argue against character type being all important. Indeed it would call into question writting haiku down at all. Since sound shift over time and pronounciation differs regionally the same written haiku will sound different at different time and place. If sound is all important to haikuness then a written haiku is not a haiku at all and only audio recordings or readings can be taken as true haiku.



Actually, *both* are important. The *ideal* situation for Haiku reading *is* to read it aloud, even if it is written down. However, the appreciation of the Japanese characters chosen for the Haiku is *also* part of fully enjoying Haiku. Again, both are important. Does everything have to be for only one reason? Is it difficult for things to be understood if they are done for multiple reasons? Rarely, if ever, are things done for one reason.

QUOTE
Also, if taking haiku sonically seriously is necessary for haikuness then if an audience fail to take the sound seriously does it cease to be a haiku because of the peoples attitude?


No, of course it doesn’t cease to be Haiku. It simply means that as you stated yourself, the audience "failed" at gasping the true meaning of Haiku (as it was meant to be by its original Japanese creators/authors).

QUOTE
As for non-true non-fiction. Any number of memoirs, historical accounts and what not contain fabrications and any number of things marketed as novels have hewed closely to facts with the names changed to protect the guilty.


You have in your own words invalided this part of your argument. Those memoirs that you speak of are still of truthful origin. The fact that the names of some people have been changed in the book, movie, whatever, does not make the entire story untrue. Furthermore, the book or film would generally have a note that some names have been changed for whatever purpose.

QUOTE
Haiku is actually in this context an english word, I know this because I can find it in English dictionaries (also no one writes it only in italics or Japanese characters) here is a definition:
1. A Japanese lyric verse form having three unrhymed lines of five, seven, and five syllables, traditionally invoking an aspect of nature or the seasons.
2. A poem written in this form.


Nice try but there is one fatal flaw to this point. Let me re-quote the specific flaw:
QUOTE
English dictionaries
.

You are using an *English* dictionary to define a Japanese word.

Furthermore, my whole point (as stated many times already) is using the term "Haiku" is being incorrectly used in the English language.

QUOTE
That being said the way we use haiku may be inelegant, coarse or gauche. It may fail to pay full respect to the Japanese poetic art from which the word derives, this may indeed be a question that only an immersion in both Japanese and English poetic and popular culture could seriously answer.


Yes, finally my point is acknowledged, and that is all I am saying. Whether those on this board choose to reflect and/or change their view on the use of the word "haiku" is each individual's choice.

However, I will say this: this is a forum board derived from a web-comic that is mostly based around *Japan* and obviously, its culture. In my original post, I was merely intending to "provide"/"offer" information/knowledge of one aspect of Japanese culture. That other people got offended or are trying to dispute the truth of that knowledge is their choice. I forced no one to respond to my posting.

QUOTE
Y'know what, the Japanese should stop using the word, パンツ to refer to underwear. It bears more of a resemblance to the word, pants, and therefore should be used in that sense only. For the Japanese to reappropriate the English language in such a way is an insult to the English language and to American heritage. They should be ashamed of themselves.


You are right. The Japanese did make a mistake when they used the word "pantsu" to refer to underwear. This was due to lack of proper knowledge of the English language. JUST LIKE Haiku is being mistakenly used in English (back to proving my point).

QUOTE
The proper response to a trolling twit like tsuru-chan is twofold: ignore it and report it. No muss no fuss.


Right...just because someone posts an opinion that does not settle in your stomach well does not make it trolling.

"Twofold" response: 1) as stated above I never forced anyone to reply to my post. 2) report it? LOL. That is just great! Report for what? Report me for posting #1 information on Japanese culture and #2 posting an opinion. Way to go for being an advocate for free speech!

Posted by: l33t n1nj4 m4st3r Feb 9 2006, 11:24 AM
long post.. alot to consume..

i have to agree with Tsuru-chan...

Posted by: Haldane Feb 9 2006, 11:31 AM
QUOTE (l33t n1nj4 m4st3r @ Feb 9 2006, 11:24 AM)
i have to agree with Tsuru-chan...

Bad choice. Even though he's right about his specific technical point it has no impact on what is done in these poetry threads. He just wasting his breath and our time.

Posted by: tsuru-chan Feb 9 2006, 11:58 AM
QUOTE
He just wasting his breath and our time.


I don't think it is a waste of time. I was simply presently knowledge as stated before.

I think Great Teacher Largo would be very disappointed!!

Knowledge is power!

I must say, I am quite surprised about the many negative responses that I got to my post. If someone were to post information that would allow me to learn something new about Japanese culture that I didn't know before, I would welcome it and add it to my knowledge base. Not to mention, I would be thankful as well for the post.

Posted by: Elite Owl Feb 9 2006, 01:59 PM
Okay, since I post in this thread I guess it's my duty to defend it's purpose.

QUOTE
(NekuraEtowaru)Alright everyone, you can stop waving your willies around now. The proper response to a trolling twit like tsuru-chan is twofold: ignore it and report it. No muss no fuss.


I don't think or fight with my "willy", I use my brain. biggrin.gif Since he's tried to make a logical argument, I will give him the benefit of the doubt he's not a troll.

Tsuru-chan, you have the right to think what you want.

I'm always willing to listen to other's opinions, despite whether I agree or disagree with them.

You did give some new information to me: Mainly that syllables in Japan are known as "kana" and that "In the Japanese language, “sound” plays a much more important and meaningful role than compared to English, almost to a spiritual level even."

However, you do not have to the right to walk in here and tell us to stop doing what we've been doing for so long just because you feel it's wrong/disrespectful. You gave a perfect example about the QWERTY keyboard and that it was not the first (or even ideal layout), but it quickly caught on and over time became acceptable. I don't know anyone, in this day and age, who would call the QWERTY keyboard disrespectful and suggest its production should be halted.

I would like to re-iterate my point with a quote from Wikipedia...

QUOTE
(wikipedia.com)
Contemporary English-language haiku

While traditional hokku focused on nature and the place of humans in nature, modern haiku poets often consider any subject matter suitable, whether related to nature, an urban setting, or even a technological context. While old hokku avoided some topics such as romance, sex, and overt violence, contemporary haiku often deals specifically with such themes.

Traditional hokku required a long period of learning and maturing, but contemporary haiku is often regarded as an "instant" form of brief verse that can be written by anyone from schoolchildren to professionals. Though conservative writers of modern haiku stay faithful to the standards of old hokku, many present-day writers have dropped such standards, emphasizing personal freedom and pursuing ongoing exploration in both form and subject matter.

In addition to the spread of haiku, the late 20th century also witnessed the surprising revival in English of the old hokku tradition, providing a continuation in spirit of pre-Shiki verse through adaptation to the English language and a wider geographic context.

Due to the various views and practices today, it is impossible to single out any current style or format or subject matter as definitive "haiku." The term has broadened greatly in modern usage to cover nearly any short verse. Nonetheless, some of the more common practices in English are:

    * Use of three lines written in 5-7-5 syllables;
    * Use of three (or fewer) lines of no more than 17 syllables in total;
    * Use of metrical feet rather than syllables. A haiku then becomes three lines of 2, 3, and 2 metrical feet, with a pause after the second or fifth;
    * Use of the "one deep breath" rule: the reader should be able to read the haiku aloud without taking a second breath.


In conclusion, sure our version of a haiku is not pure/does not stick to the rules of the original. I call it adapted or translated. If non-Japanese people didn't adapt or translate this form of poetry then it would only stay in Japan and other people from other nations would not have the opportunity to enjoy it. I hope I have made a reasonable, rational argument without being offensive.

Welcome to the forums.

Posted by: NekuraEtowaru Feb 9 2006, 02:47 PM
QUOTE (tsuru-chan @ Feb 9 2006, 08:12 AM)
QUOTE (NekuraEtowaru)
 
The proper response to a trolling twit like tsuru-chan is twofold: ignore it and report it. No muss no fuss.



Right...just because someone posts an opinion that does not settle in your stomach well does not make it trolling.

"Twofold" response: 1) as stated above I never forced anyone to reply to my post. 2) report it? LOL. That is just great! Report for what? Report me for posting #1 information on Japanese culture and #2 posting an opinion. Way to go for being an advocate for free speech!

Grrr....should have followed my own advice...

This is not a free speech issue. You've shouted fire in the moviehouse and are shocked shocked that it upset people. Wow, imagine that...a hostile tone brought hostility in response... ohmy.gif

That is really neither here nor there, though. As for whether you could be reported, the reasoning is also twofold: 1) If it walks like a troll and talks like a troll, it's a safe bet it's a troll. Your tone from the first has been both condescending and inflammatory. You have made it clear since that your intent was not and is not reasoned debate, but derision and dodges. It isn't the disagreement but the presentation that makes you look like a troll. 2) The purpose of this thread is to post poetry in whatever form you chose (despite the name, all sorts come around) related to the current strip. If you want to debate what does or doesn't constitute a haiku, that should be a separate thread, and really would be better suited to the creative writing forum. Debating it here is off-topic.

Nobody is making you read anything in here. If it offends your nihonohphile sensibilities that badly, you're probably better off elsewhere anyway.

That said if you want to actually contribute to the *actual* purpose of the thread and pwn us all with your l337 haiku skillz, bring it! Love to see new faces (usually) wink.gif

Nekura

Posted by: Haldane Feb 9 2006, 04:27 PM
Actually I did report you for trolling and pushing the thread off topic this morning. I'm not surprised that the mods have chosen to let us talk it out here, but if this discussion carries into the next poetry thread I will report it again. You appear to think you told us something we didn't already realize... and for most of us that isn't close to the truth... we just don't care for your put-down and insults, and therefore, your opinions either. We can be nice people if you act like one too, none of this was necessary or helpful.

Posted by: tsuru-chan Feb 9 2006, 05:05 PM
Answer this question:

Haiku = Japanese poetry that is severely connected to the Japanese language to the point that it can not be written in ANY other language?
Yes or no?
(Hint: if you answer "no" to this question, you don't know enough about Japanese language and culture in order to be competent in such a discussion).

It is impossible to have "English Haiku" or for that matter any other language (German Haiku, Italian Haiku, etc, etc).

[/discussion]

Japanese have a high sense of duty (as most know).

In general, human beings have the duty to right wrongs (that is why we have laws, rules, judges, and police).

Call it "English Wannabe-Haiku" or "English Pseudo-Haiku" if you *really* insist on inserting the word "Haiku" into *your* form of poetry then you would be correct.

In the quote from Elite Owl taken from Wikipedia:
QUOTE
Due to the various views and practices today, it is impossible to single out any current style or format or subject matter as definitive "haiku."


In other words, people have slaughtered the term "Haiku" so much and into whatever way they *feel* is right that the true/original definition of "Haiku" has been blurred and marred.

This could be related to and go back to Fred's recent rant.
MT is *Fred's* story. You can not take someone else's creation and turn it into whatever you feel like. Well sure you "can," but then that would be very rude of you.

Posted by: Elite Owl Feb 9 2006, 05:17 PM
You know...I don't like to show my fangs...but I will if necessary.

Tsuru-chan you disappoint me...I thought we could have a nice, friendly, quick, intellectual debate. (I say quick because this is off-topic) Unfortunately I was wrong, very wrong. You didn't listen to a damn word I said did you? Since you didn't quote me on anything that either means you didn't bother to read or there was nothing I said you could challenge me on. It's one thing to disagree but to call everyone in here incompetent is foolish and unnecessary. I have six words for you: fuck off and don't come back. Consider it an honor to be intellectually owned by the Owl. 'Nuff said.

Edit

Oh now all of a sudden you quote me...I see how it is. Well you're not going to fool me twice. You are 100% closed-minded. At least I said ,"It's not a pure form but it's been adapted" Adapted != mutilated. You want to redeem yourself? Take Nekura's advice: Sit down, stop complaining, and post your best "English Haiku". If you keep acting the way you do the mods will assume you're trolling and you don't want that. Please let this pseudo-debate die.

Posted by: tsuru-chan Feb 9 2006, 05:25 PM
Actually, I did read your post, and I *did* take a quote from it. I just decided to edit it in because your own post made such a good point.

Edit (again): note I was making my edit BEFORE reading your most recent post.

Posted by: tsuru-chan Feb 9 2006, 05:32 PM
QUOTE
You've shouted fire in the moviehouse and are shocked shocked that it upset people.


Yeah...that's a great example. Since fires happen on the internet all the time.

[/sarcasm]

Posted by: AllanO Feb 9 2006, 06:03 PM
QUOTE (ph00tbag @ Feb 9 2006, 05:35 AM)
[!haiku]
Y'know what, the Japanese should stop using the word, パンツ to refer to underwear. It bears more of a resemblance to the word, pants, and therefore should be used in that sense only.
[/!haiku]

Funny aside.

[FYI Haiku smile.gif ]
Pants can mean trousers.
And pants can mean underpants.
Depending on http://english2american.com/dictionary/p.html.
[/FYI Haiku]


Hair colour wishes,
Exchanged on the way.
A dark cloud appears.

Sorry for the long off topic post earlier.

Posted by: Shadowy Intent Feb 9 2006, 06:45 PM
QUOTE (tsuru-chan @ Feb 9 2006, 06:32 PM)
Yeah...that's a great example.  Since fires happen on the internet all the time.

[/sarcasm]

Do you practice being obtuse, or does it just come naturally? For someone so learned in the field of language and so quick to cite freedom of speech as a defense, you display a shocking ignorance of a phrase that's both a fairly common idiom and a relevant example of the limitations of free speech. The line of Nekura's you quote is a reference to a crucial restriction placed upon free speech--that it cannot be protected when its exercise would result in a clear and present danger to society. As Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr, said: "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic."

Granted that the situation described in that scenario is not totally analogous with what's going on here, but it's still fitting given the idiom's common usage--describing words or actions that either go beyond the protections guaranteed by free speech or are evidently reckless and malicious. Frankly, I consider your speech in this thread to be particularly malicious--I can't understand for the life of me why you'd spend the time and effort arguing about the proper definition of haiku on a message board devoted to a webcomic. Aren't we a little... I don't know... small time? That is, why bother us? Shouldn't you be taking this one up with Webster's or their ilk, as they're institutions with a far greater influence over how words are defined than a simple message board community?

As far as I can tell, the only way your efforts here make sense is when they're attributed to malice (although perhaps I should continue to keep Hanlon's Razor in mind). After all, you come in here with a noticeably holier-than-thou attitude and posit that we're a group comprised of the ignorant and uneducated, disqualified from true understanding due to a relevant linguistic failing on our parts. On top of that, you attempt to frame the terms of debate so that disagreeing with you is not only comparable to an immediate acknowledgement of defeat but also indicative of being unqualified to debate in the first place... And that just isn't cricket.

I wonder, too, at the efficacy of this attempt on my part to argue with a linguistic fundamentalist, so allow me to bring this to a close. While I appreciate your efforts to bring the light of civilization into our poor, neglected internet backwater, I simply don't care for what you have to say. We've gotten along here quite capably with a less-stringent definition of haiku, and as evidenced by the new thread going up, we intend to continue on as we have.

So... Thanks for your trouble, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Posted by: NekuraEtowaru Feb 9 2006, 06:50 PM
QUOTE (tsuru-chan @ Feb 9 2006, 03:32 PM)

Yeah...that's a great example. Since fires happen on the internet all the time.

[/sarcasm]

You fail at metaphor, tsuru, but thanks for playing.

Nekura

Posted by: ph00tbag Feb 9 2006, 06:55 PM
QUOTE
(Hint: if you answer "no" to this question, you don't know enough about Japanese language and culture in order to be competent in such a discussion).

(Hint: if you answer "yes" to this question, you don't know enough about the nature of loan words and semantic shifts in order to be competent in such a discussion).

Seriously. you're showing an enormous bias here towards the Japanese language here, and it's only making you look ignorant. The fact is, haiku is a Japanese lexical borrowing, like skosh, like rapprochment, like motto, like cannibal, like smuggle, like robot, like chipmunk, like shampoo, like anger. Would you doubt the "Englishness" of the words I've listed? They're all loan words, and I garuntee you they have seen massive shifts of one form or another since they entered into the English language. Haiku should not be expected to be any different.

As far as we're concerned, Japanese doesn't even come into the picture here. Once haiku was adopted into the English language, its Japanese roots no longer had any bearing on its development as an English word. And why should they? Most English speakers aren't Japanese, so why should they be expected to follow Japanese custom to the letter? Why should they be expected to use words in the Japanese way, talk like Japanese, think like Japanese?

Posted by: tsuru-chan Feb 9 2006, 07:05 PM
QUOTE
holier-than-thou attitude


Care to re-read your own post?

#1 You assume I don't know that famous line which you are wrong.
#2 Since you can't figure out what my point was in that particular reply with your own brain, I shall assist you. The point was that the line did not have anything to do with the current debate. It was not applicable to this situation.
Q: How was what I originally posted AT ALL related to "shouting fire in a crowded theater"?!
A: It was not related in any way, shape, or form.

Posted by: tsuru-chan Feb 9 2006, 07:07 PM
FYI

This is wasting time now because it is like talking to a brick wall.

I guess it was my bad to assume that people would take me for my word.

Perhaps some background information is needed?

FYI

I worked in an elitist intelligence school for kids ranging for age 2-16 in Japan. Perhaps some of you have heard/seen about this kind of school on the news.
All the parents of the kids were very rich (doctors, high ranking businessmen, etc).
The "shacho" or boss/owner of the school/company is also on a prominent bank committee in Japan. In other words, this was no two-bit school.

I was not just teaching English to the kids, but also, I actually taught *Japanese* kids, Japanese.

*I* have corrected many older (50+ years old) Japanese people in the *correct* stroke order for many Kanji.

FYI

What is the point in saying all this?

I know Japanese.

If you don't know Japanese then don't argue with someone that does know on a topic that relates to the Japanese language.

-End of Discussion-


Posted by: Shadowy Intent Feb 9 2006, 07:16 PM
QUOTE (tsuru-chan @ Feb 9 2006, 08:05 PM)
Care to re-read your own post?

Knowing you read it is satisfaction enough.

Vaya con dios.

Posted by: UserGoogol Feb 9 2006, 07:17 PM
[non-haiku]We're not talking about the Japanese language. We're talking about Haikus. Haikus were invented in Japan, but Americans put their own twist on them. That's how it usually works when ideas are exchanged between Japan and America. One of them does something, and other makes it perverse and weird.[/non-haiku]

Posted by: tsuru-chan Feb 9 2006, 07:46 PM
I guess I must apologize at this point.

I will take the suggestion and freedom of choice to leave these forums.

This forum is an MT forum. My mistake and reason for apologizing is this: I assumed that those members of the forums would be interested in/respectful toward the Japanese nation, people, and culture. Since MT is about all of these things. I guess I was wrong. I was hoping to find people here that shared the same interest as I do (and as Fred does as I would also assume [but I think obvious] since he *is* indeed doing a web-comic that would appeal to those interested in the Japanese culture).

I will simply continue to read Fred's great and faithful web-comic without venturing over here to the forums anymore. At least I know Fred has a good understanding and respect for Japanese culture as is evident in his comics.

(Yes, yes, insert your nihonophile [not even a real word] flame attempts here. But remember, everyone has their own interests. So, if I am a "nihonophile" then you are a "insert your hobby/interest here"-o-phile!!)

I do not care to waste anymore time on pointless arguments.

Thank-you and goodbye.


Posted by: Tama Feb 9 2006, 07:54 PM
[non-haiku] Yaaay! Troll is gone! [/non-haiku]

Posted by: Sabyr Feb 9 2006, 08:01 PM
[!haiku]
lol Japan
[/!haiku]

Posted by: 3Power Feb 9 2006, 08:51 PM
Ugh, I hate twits who are anal about what things should properly be called.

This is like when those idiots were bitching about how anime shouldn't be called anime and stuff.

Look, it's logical, if the majority of people call something something, even if the title is used incorrectly, then it's gonna be called that. Look at the term "Indian" which has endured for centuries, and is only changing now because it's considered racially insulting against a large number of people. In this case, you're pretty much the only person being vocally anal about this. My point: deal with it. The term haiku is neither politically incorrect nor disrespectful to any culture in the world, and no-one is about to start replacing it with "Psuedo-haiku" or whatever you're suggesting.

Second....

I absolutely hate it when people say you have to be of a certain race or culture to "get" something. The idea itself is racism. You're spouting that only Japanese can truly understand haiku because for some reason there's something in the structure that makes it unspeakable in any other language. You think you can't appreciate individual syllables in the English langauge? Puh.

The idea is purely selfish, "Only we can have haiku because we were the first ones who had it, all you foreginers can't have it." Unfortunately this is a sentiment shared by many japanese, even today. Several books I've read have had japanese people quoted as saying "you can't understand because you're not Japanese" and stuff.

I refuse to believe that one's race, culture, or language can determine what one can or can not do.

Furthermore, you claim that by referring to "American Haikus" as Haikus we're insulting the japanese people in general. If our intent was to insult japanese people, why would we bother writing poetry based on Japanese styles? The idea is ludicrous.

Just to piss you off, I think I'll end with a haiku:

Haikus can be fun
Why can't we just enjoy them?
Elitism sucks

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